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  • Herr Meister
    started a topic Blood Potency in v20

    Blood Potency in v20

    Blood Potency is one of the few things I really liked in V5. Has anybody adapted it to v20 with any success? If so, would care to share how did you do it?

  • Cadmiumcadamium
    replied
    Didn't read through all the posts here so this might have already been said, but anyway.
    I did a houserule a while back where Generation and Blood Potency are completely divorced. Generation in this system is a Supernatural Merit that allows the player to start with a higher Blood Potency than a regular character and it can't be reduced below the starting value through the fog of ages.
    For more info see this google doc. https://docs.google.com/document/d/1...it?usp=sharing

    Leave a comment:


  • MyWifeIsScary
    replied
    Originally posted by adambeyoncelowe View Post

    You're also not wrong. But the lore does imply some evolution through ageing (granted, you could explain this as the effect of XP and Disciplines), so I can see why some people like both.
    I think the only 90% sure not-a-rumour/misunderstanding thing they give us is that your standard vamps get paler with age (is that a humanity thing?) Assamites get darker, Nosferatu get uglier (again, might be a humanity thing).
    Assamite Darkening is the only 100% thing that's related to the age of the blood/diablerie. But that's gone in V5 because writers saw "racism/curse of ham" rather than arsenic poisoning or just a cool thing that represents the stand-apart nature of the clan.
    Everything else is just... getting more stats with age. IE XP expenditure.

    Behaviour? Could chalk it up to experience or the human mind not being designed for living 200+ years while things rapidly change.
    Methuselah's thirst? That was always (pre-5) a fearmongering rumour with the occasional stated sufferer; some vampires can't abide by Garlic/Crosses/Running water/Not Counting rice: It doesn't make it a universal thing.

    Leave a comment:


  • adambeyoncelowe
    replied
    Originally posted by MyWifeIsScary View Post
    For me, Diablerie is best kept as simple as possible: You murder someone and gain a dot of Generation.
    That's balanced, thematically appropriate, and drives good stories.

    Letting them recover a few dots of willpower and/or a temporary discipline boost is great fun and encourages them to commit the crime again, but further consequences are on the player's head.

    If you start auto-stripping humanity, people stop committing diablerie
    If you start giving people feeding issues from blood potency, people stop committing diablerie


    If you start throwing XP at players who do the no-no munch then you quickly derail the game with some characters spiralling out in power and others feel left behind keeping to the relatively slow rate of xp accumulation.
    If you start getting into possession... well...

    IMO diablerie works best in the context that it's the only way to break the Glass Ceiling of Generation. Blood potency detracts from Generation, because it gives players the idea that they can just wait it out to be more powerful. No, you've got to eat your vampire daddy like the rest of us.
    You're also not wrong. But the lore does imply some evolution through ageing (granted, you could explain this as the effect of XP and Disciplines), so I can see why some people like both.

    Leave a comment:


  • MyWifeIsScary
    replied
    For me, Diablerie is best kept as simple as possible: You murder someone and gain a dot of Generation.
    That's balanced, thematically appropriate, and drives good stories.

    Letting them recover a few dots of willpower and/or a temporary discipline boost is great fun and encourages them to commit the crime again, but further consequences are on the player's head.

    If you start auto-stripping humanity, people stop committing diablerie
    If you start giving people feeding issues from blood potency, people stop committing diablerie


    If you start throwing XP at players who do the no-no munch then you quickly derail the game with some characters spiralling out in power and others feel left behind keeping to the relatively slow rate of xp accumulation.
    If you start getting into possession... well...

    IMO diablerie works best in the context that it's the only way to break the Glass Ceiling of Generation. Blood potency detracts from Generation, because it gives players the idea that they can just wait it out to be more powerful. No, you've got to eat your vampire daddy like the rest of us.

    Leave a comment:


  • adambeyoncelowe
    replied
    Originally posted by monteparnas View Post
    That's less of a problem with Requiem because it is, indeed, another game, so I don't carry this kind of expectation over. But I didn't liked this aspect in V5 either.
    My bad. I didn't mean VTR changed the lore of its own setting -- I meant that using VTR's feeding restrictions will change the lore of VTM if imported.

    But VtM simply goes by another theme entirely, I agree that grounding feeding restrictions as in VtR wasn't the best idea. It is specially bad if you consider that VtM strongly links high Humanity to long times of activity while powerful and monstrous Methuselah stay in torpor most of the time, which is a reverse logic to VtR, where even without the forgetfulness Torpor has a theme of renewal to it, while staying awake without it corrodes inures you.
    Yeah. There was a mechanic for low Humanity vamps falling to torpor (I think?), but like the Thirst of Ages rules, it was a bit weak and unlikely to happen. Maybe a revised set of Humanity rules could allow for this to be a part of that system.

    I would have to consider if +5 is the best for my tastes, but it seems very promising, both with or without a roll, although with a roll it probably could start at higher Humanity. I also liked the notion of needing more human blood before entirely degenerating to Kindred Vitae, so let me first draft a list of restrictions.
    • Bagged Human Blood - Only animal blood must be fresh for you, any blood gives you full by-the-book Vitae or even a little more;
    • Bagged Human Blood (Halved) - Cold blood starts to give less nutrition, and if there was any extra benefit to better blood it ceases;
    • Animal Blood - Non-Supernatural blood must be fresh;
    • Animal Blood (1/5th) - The idea is that feeding on animals is still possible, but a veritable blood bath. It's a cool concept and serves as a buffer before the Human Blood Restrictions;
    • Human Blood - Common animals cannot give sustenance anymore. Animal Ghouls may be valid sources? Unnatural animals may count as human for this purpose;
    • Human Blood (-2) - The idea is that at the starting of feeding the first 2 Blood Points are just wasted. Additional blood won't be affected, so a human body still can give you up to 8, but feeding from another person starts it all over again;
    • Human Blood (-5) - Same as above, but -2 hurts a lot without being life threatening (Min. 3 L), -5 is almost guaranteed to kill (6 L), That changes your options about harming humans and how many you must kill to have a good dinner;
    • Kindred Vitae - Actually Supernatural Vitae, at least from Major Splats, possibly some powerful unnatural beasts like Bygones;
    • Elder Vitae - A minimum threshold in BP is needed, or maybe the difference weakens the benefit. Other supernatural sources are either weakened too don't count anymore, unless the source is really attuned to vampires;
    • Bagged Kindred Vitae (Halved) - Up to now supernatural blood wouldn't loose its potency for you even if bagged. Now it is halved.
    Any comment or suggestion on this list? It has 10 items, which seems good to me if there is no roll, as it gives some buffer without the need of one thing I don't like neither in V5 or VtR, that is the repetition of restrictions through several levels.

    My personal thought is that a Humanity 10 vampire shouldn't ever fall bellow Animal Blood due to BP alone, while a BP 10 vampire wouldn't ever be above that. If you consider BP 10 as the Antes, though, you can move this threshold to Animal Blood (1/5th). This would put the Threshold for the first Feeding Restriction as BP+1 if BP 10 = Methuselah, or BP+2 if BP 10 = Ante.

    For now it doesn't seems a problem to me. At BP 1 I'm not sure if a Fledgling should have big restrictions no matter how monstrous, and the lore doesn't point to any restriction being common before you become an Elder, and even then this is not a sure thing. If you add a Bottom Cap to BP based on Generation it makes even more sense as it makes for elders more probable to have restrictions also due to it, and finally VtM has a greater tendency to stabilize most characters Humanity at a given point, and a relatively low one if compared to VtR's greater volatility and higher expected starting point.

    Your typical Humanity 5 vampire will start to suffer at BP 4/3 and at their maximum BP will require Kindred Vitae, which seems reasonable. You need to have no more than Humanity 3 to ever reach rock-bottom, but rock-bottom here is really low.
    My only hesitation is that with 10 steps, it'll take a very long time to have the more serious feeding restrictions -- especially if we use (BP+1) or (BP+2). I'd have everyone start at Bagged and then go Animal/Human/Half human/Kindred/Elder. That is probably as much granularity as we need.

    BP+3 would mean that most vamps won't suffer a problem until they reach Humanity 4. That could work. Once you get to Humanity 3, I think you should definitely be feeling the effects, and significantly so. So that's when you can no longer use animal blood and most feed on humans. At Humanity 2, humans slake half, and at Humanity 1 you need Kindred or supernatural blood. Which seems right, since you're on the cusp of becoming a wight anyway.

    Originally posted by Prometheas View Post
    I don't think I've ever seen a solution to merging Blood Potency and Generation that didn't involve an unwieldy amount of book-keeping, which ultimately ended with the ST throwing it out and sticking with one system. Both systems are Perfectly functional by themselves and alone they're simple enough to Plug-and-play with little issue, together they're a bit of a mess.
    You're not wrong. It is tricky to juggle both.

    In the olden days of the 90s, some tables had a house rule where you just started at the equivalent of three Generations higher than your actual Generation, and then just gradually evolved into your true power level.

    The simplest solution I've seen is to let Generation cap trait maximums and Blood Potency only deal with blood per turn and pool size. So you'd have:

    Generation/Trait Max
    15-16/5, 3 for Disciplines
    14/5, 4 for Disciplines
    8-13/5
    7/6
    6/7
    5/8
    4/9
    3/10

    Then:

    Blood Potency/Vitae/Per Turn
    0/(10+Stamina)/1
    1/10/1
    2/11/2
    3/12/3
    4/13/4
    5/15/5
    6/20/6
    7/30/8
    8/40/10
    9/50/15
    10/??/??

    This is much less granular, though, and means all PCs will have the same BP range (unless you cap Thin Bloods).

    Leave a comment:


  • Prometheas
    replied
    I don't think I've ever seen a solution to merging Blood Potency and Generation that didn't involve an unwieldy amount of book-keeping, which ultimately ended with the ST throwing it out and sticking with one system. Both systems are Perfectly functional by themselves and alone they're simple enough to Plug-and-play with little issue, together they're a bit of a mess.

    Leave a comment:


  • monteparnas
    replied
    Originally posted by adambeyoncelowe View Post
    VTR and V5 just make it an inevitability at certain BPs, which is simpler and more concrete but does change the lore (or requires the Withering to handwave). It does make virtuous elders harder to play, but it also adds some consequences to high BP, so that there's a trade off. So it's good, but not perfect for all tables.
    That's less of a problem with Requiem because it is, indeed, another game, so I don't carry this kind of expectation over. But I didn't liked this aspect in V5 either.

    Playing virtuous elders is tricky, but in VtR it comes with BP management, which is easier with its timing plus you starting play with BP 1 by default regardless of sire. Even then I get your point and can't say it's good in all my chronicles.

    But VtM simply goes by another theme entirely, I agree that grounding feeding restrictions as in VtR wasn't the best idea. It is specially bad if you consider that VtM strongly links high Humanity to long times of activity while powerful and monstrous Methuselah stay in torpor most of the time, which is a reverse logic to VtR, where even without the forgetfulness Torpor has a theme of renewal to it, while staying awake without it corrodes inures you.

    Originally posted by adambeyoncelowe View Post
    You could say that the first feeding restriction only kicks in when your Humanity falls below a threshold (say, BP+5). If you raise your Humanity again, the feeding restriction fades. If you lose more Humanity, your thirst worsens by a step.
    Loved it!

    I would have to consider if +5 is the best for my tastes, but it seems very promising, both with or without a roll, although with a roll it probably could start at higher Humanity. I also liked the notion of needing more human blood before entirely degenerating to Kindred Vitae, so let me first draft a list of restrictions.
    • Bagged Human Blood - Only animal blood must be fresh for you, any blood gives you full by-the-book Vitae or even a little more;
    • Bagged Human Blood (Halved) - Cold blood starts to give less nutrition, and if there was any extra benefit to better blood it ceases;
    • Animal Blood - Non-Supernatural blood must be fresh;
    • Animal Blood (1/5th) - The idea is that feeding on animals is still possible, but a veritable blood bath. It's a cool concept and serves as a buffer before the Human Blood Restrictions;
    • Human Blood - Common animals cannot give sustenance anymore. Animal Ghouls may be valid sources? Unnatural animals may count as human for this purpose;
    • Human Blood (-2) - The idea is that at the starting of feeding the first 2 Blood Points are just wasted. Additional blood won't be affected, so a human body still can give you up to 8, but feeding from another person starts it all over again;
    • Human Blood (-5) - Same as above, but -2 hurts a lot without being life threatening (Min. 3 L), -5 is almost guaranteed to kill (6 L), That changes your options about harming humans and how many you must kill to have a good dinner;
    • Kindred Vitae - Actually Supernatural Vitae, at least from Major Splats, possibly some powerful unnatural beasts like Bygones;
    • Elder Vitae - A minimum threshold in BP is needed, or maybe the difference weakens the benefit. Other supernatural sources are either weakened too don't count anymore, unless the source is really attuned to vampires;
    • Bagged Kindred Vitae (Halved) - Up to now supernatural blood wouldn't loose its potency for you even if bagged. Now it is halved.

    Any comment or suggestion on this list? It has 10 items, which seems good to me if there is no roll, as it gives some buffer without the need of one thing I don't like neither in V5 or VtR, that is the repetition of restrictions through several levels.

    My personal thought is that a Humanity 10 vampire shouldn't ever fall bellow Animal Blood due to BP alone, while a BP 10 vampire wouldn't ever be above that. If you consider BP 10 as the Antes, though, you can move this threshold to Animal Blood (1/5th). This would put the Threshold for the first Feeding Restriction as BP+1 if BP 10 = Methuselah, or BP+2 if BP 10 = Ante.

    For now it doesn't seems a problem to me. At BP 1 I'm not sure if a Fledgling should have big restrictions no matter how monstrous, and the lore doesn't point to any restriction being common before you become an Elder, and even then this is not a sure thing. If you add a Bottom Cap to BP based on Generation it makes even more sense as it makes for elders more probable to have restrictions also due to it, and finally VtM has a greater tendency to stabilize most characters Humanity at a given point, and a relatively low one if compared to VtR's greater volatility and higher expected starting point.

    Your typical Humanity 5 vampire will start to suffer at BP 4/3 and at their maximum BP will require Kindred Vitae, which seems reasonable. You need to have no more than Humanity 3 to ever reach rock-bottom, but rock-bottom here is really low.

    Leave a comment:


  • adambeyoncelowe
    replied
    Originally posted by monteparnas View Post
    I think it is a good compromise, too. Others may exist. I just don't agree that the old system did that because the old system didn't actually did anything about it. The lore established that it was a thing, but enforcing that was completely on your hands by fiat. That's not ideal as the result was inconsistency and many STs not knowing how and when to implement it.

    Other compromise would be to make a cross-referencing table between Generation, Age and Humanity. That would take some work to do, but would be easy to use once done and would permit reversal: increasing one's Humanity lets you lower your feeding necessities.
    The old system was totally 'meh', yeah. I couldn't initially find the old Thirst of Ages/Thirst of Caine rules, which I thought were in Wind from the East, to check them, but I now see they're in the DAV ST Companion as well.

    The test is an optional WP roll, and has a low difficulty (basically the difficulty is equal to the number of potential triggers you have from a list, so you have to do a lot of bad stuff before the risk is particularly high). It's not really a risk most players will have to deal with.

    VTR and V5 just make it an inevitability at certain BPs, which is simpler and more concrete but does change the lore (or requires the Withering to handwave). It does make virtuous elders harder to play, but it also adds some consequences to high BP, so that there's a trade off. So it's good, but not perfect for all tables.

    I'm sort of put off by complicated tables, as you're suggesting here (V5's BP table is way too granular for me), but I think you have given me an idea for another option. It's similar to the [roll (Humanity - BP)] method, but is a bit more concrete and makes Humanity more important. It's also inspired by VTR2e's system for banes.

    You could say that the first feeding restriction only kicks in when your Humanity falls below a threshold (say, BP+5). If you raise your Humanity again, the feeding restriction fades. If you lose more Humanity, your thirst worsens by a step.

    So at BP1, you have no restrictions until you hit Humanity 6, at which point you gain half the sustenance from bagged blood. This is nice and easy for most PCs starting out in the game.

    At BP2 and Humanity 7, bagged blood will only provide half the usual vitae. At Humanity 6, it will provide none and you need animal blood or better. And so on.

    At BP3 and Humanity 8, you halve sustenance from bagged blood; at Humanity 7, bagged blood would offer no sustenance at all; at Humanity 6, you gain half from animals; and so on.

    If you raise your Humanity, your restrictions lessen by one step per dot. If you lower your BP, you may also lessen your restrictions. This gives you two ways to manage risk -- relinquish power or do better. There's a balance there that I like -- because even if you keep your power, higher Humanity means you're going to have to use that power more wisely if you want to avoid slipping back again.

    Even if you still want it randomised (e.g., by rolling [Humanity - BP]), you could allow PCs to lessen their restrictions by regaining Humanity again. Either regaining a dot of Humanity lifts you up one level, or allows a re-roll -- whichever works best for your table.
    Last edited by adambeyoncelowe; 05-29-2022, 04:16 AM.

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  • monteparnas
    replied
    Originally posted by MyWifeIsScary View Post
    At first I thought the idea was HERESY and I didn't want to comment.
    But then I remembered there are -change with age/diablerie- things Vamps have in V20 so here's some surface thoughts that I can put mechanics behind.

    Cultural:
    When in new assamites meet and begin to work together without knowledge of one another, sect brainwashing encourages Assamites to defer to the darkest-skinned Assamite, his success in hunting may legitimately trump age-exclusive darkening in the eyes of many. Similarly, many Gangrel assume seniority to the most Beastial. Nosferatu to the ugliest, Maegar to the weirdest.

    Physical:
    Normal vampires increase their attributes from accumulating thousands of feeds from various people with desirable attributes. Ugly Vampires like the Nosferatu or Samedi cannot increase their natural appearance rating, so instead feeding from beauty gives them ironic merits relating to the physical body.
    For this take you could dissociate Trait Cap from Generation and put it on a new Blood Potency trait. It can either be just for Attributes, for both Att & Abilities, or even include Disciplines, but Blood Pool and B/Turn would remain under Generation. Now you have a new trait to represent vampiric growth that you can link other effects to.

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  • MyWifeIsScary
    replied
    At first I thought the idea was HERESY and I didn't want to comment.
    But then I remembered there are -change with age/diablerie- things Vamps have in V20 so here's some surface thoughts that I can put mechanics behind.

    Cultural:
    When in new assamites meet and begin to work together without knowledge of one another, sect brainwashing encourages Assamites to defer to the darkest-skinned Assamite, his success in hunting may legitimately trump age-exclusive darkening in the eyes of many. Similarly, many Gangrel assume seniority to the most Beastial. Nosferatu to the ugliest, Maegar to the weirdest.

    Physical:
    Normal vampires increase their attributes from accumulating thousands of feeds from various people with desirable attributes. Ugly Vampires like the Nosferatu or Samedi cannot increase their natural appearance rating, so instead feeding from beauty gives them ironic merits relating to the physical body.

    Leave a comment:


  • monteparnas
    replied
    Originally posted by adambeyoncelowe View Post
    But rolling Humanity with a penalty based in BP seemed like a good compromise between the old and new systems, while allowing for BP to have a few drawbacks.
    I think it is a good compromise, too. Others may exist. I just don't agree that the old system did that because the old system didn't actually did anything about it. The lore established that it was a thing, but enforcing that was completely on your hands by fiat. That's not ideal as the result was inconsistency and many STs not knowing how and when to implement it.

    Other compromise would be to make a cross-referencing table between Generation, Age and Humanity. That would take some work to do, but would be easy to use once done and would permit reversal: increasing one's Humanity lets you lower your feeding necessities.

    Leave a comment:


  • adambeyoncelowe
    replied
    Originally posted by Ragged Robin View Post
    I always preferences to link the 'potency' of the thirst with disconnect from humanity and the beasts hold combined with age
    Yeah, me too. The old rules did that. Also, I like that some elders in VTM can still drink from animals, etc, but that it's hard. Compulsory feeding restrictions mean vamps of a certain BP have little chance of Golconda, too (admittedly, this is worse if high BP also means you can't lower your Hunger without murder).

    But rolling Humanity with a penalty based in BP seemed like a good compromise between the old and new systems, while allowing for BP to have a few drawbacks.

    Leave a comment:


  • monteparnas
    replied
    Originally posted by Herr Meister View Post
    To be fair, I'm almost giving up adapting it to an ongoing chronicle, it seems it might just complicate things without bringing much benefit. The greatest benefit is not limiting characters so much by generation.
    Understandable, the problem is that doing that is directly contrary to what Generation is supposed to represent.

    You may reverse my take and instead of using Generation for a top limit, use it for a bottom limit. If you're 7th Gen, your baseline BP is 6 out of the bat and won't go lower after Torpor, but there's no ceiling other than 10. That way old vampires are always scary and PCs can dream of reaching the heights of power without need for Diablerie, but being Low Gen let you start off ahead of your peers, and keep more power after a long torpor. To adjust eventual problems you can count BP as starting with 1 for the purpose of a Low Gen growing (the 7th Gen would only get to BP 7 at the same age anyone would be at BP 7), or you can make a more complex table that will still be simple because will be easy to refer to.

    But that's about it. Beyond that the problem is that as a rule Generation is meant to be this limitation, or better: this advantageous. One thing to consider is that while in lore the 13th Generation is very watered down and vampires are meant to reach the levels of the Ancients with time, in truth the 13th Generation is the baseline of the game, it is how a vampire is meant to work, and the lower ones are a bonus on this baseline. Elder powers, traits above 5 and huge amounts of Vitae either in reserve or per turn are additions to this baseline that aren't even well thought most of the time and are beyond what the system as a mathematical model was meant to process.

    Originally posted by Herr Meister View Post
    In any case the Tremere is one of the clans with the most impressive feats under its banner (specially when considering their jung age), fighting so many fronts while having so many enemies both among the undead and the living, basically exterminating a clan, cursing another and managing to become arguably the most powerful clan in the world (as mentioned in Revised) is certainly impressive,
    Partly it is due to the clan bringing a kind of inner organization the other didn't had, partly it is because the Tremere are a pet project of the creator of the game, coming from his previous game and being already his favorite there. But it still has enough sense to me if you think that for most of this time their main goal was just to survive, which isn't as hard as it seems, and the other things came just as circumstances became more favorable.

    Originally posted by Herr Meister View Post
    (and in any case Meerlinda must do something useful for the clan as Etrius and Goratrix had already done everything for the clan lol)
    I disagree with this reading. Goratrix was powerful and ambitious, but his greatest achievement was to convince Tremere of following every of his stupid ideas. Most of the clan's hardships came from Goratrix's lack of foresight and then blaming his failures on anything but himself. And far before that Meerlinda already acted as a subtle diplomat between Etrius and Goratrix to stop their fighting from causing too much trouble. Without her their feud would probably have ended badly. Were it not for Meerlinda, Goratrix would have destroyed the Tremere with his careless actions.

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  • Reasor
    replied
    Originally posted by Vilenecromancer View Post
    • Potency goes up every 50 years for free as long as you're active, but goes down every 25 if you're in torpor
    These are V:tR's rates of change, but for V:tM I'd suggest using V5's numbers. Gain a dot of Blood Potency every hundred years spent active, burn off a dot of Blood Potency for every 50 years spent in torpor. This should work to better maintain the traditional feel of Masquerade vampires' long active/sleep cycles, especially the elders. You end up with a world with a very different history, otherwise. It'll also keep neonates from catching up with their sires so quickly that generation becomes completely irrelevant.
    Last edited by Reasor; 05-26-2022, 07:49 PM.

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