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  • Herr Meister
    started a topic What is Michael doing?

    What is Michael doing?

    Does anybody know what is up with Michael? I know he's inside Mary the Black, but what is he up to? Is he in complete control?
    What are your thoughts?

  • Banu_Saulot
    replied
    Funny thing about everyone wanting to create or recreate a Dream is that well... the whole idea to create a perfect society for vampires, which was what occurred supposedly in Constantinople under the Trinity, needs... well, a society. So you can't really make that without people knowing.
    The 1st and 2nd City, Carthage, Rome, Constantinople, Vykos plans for the Sabbat, and probably some other examples, were all some form of Dream, and well... they failed. Some got pretty close, but I guess the whole problem of them is that they were openly known. Perhaps this new Dream may work because somehow it is being done in the shadows. Which is very Camarilla like.

    I kept wondering just what the hell is Michael's Dream now, since he was eaten by Mary.

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  • Baaldam
    replied
    Originally posted by Lysander View Post
    So we might be looking at something like Mithras and Monty or Michael and Mari in other words. There should be a warning for weaker generation about the perils of diablerizing potent methusalths when they learn about it.

    Truth be told, i remember toying with such a conceit in the form of weird flashbacks to times before a diablerist embrace, tales of kindred a character knew were gone making short cameos in occasions a PC lost a few hours or nights to frenzy among other things a year or two before DSotBH.

    A friend even had a subplot in a chronicle of his involving a number of highly-placed elder Tremere probably being ridden by the Salubri they supposedly consumed, all of them willing servant-sacrifices watching out for the eventual return of Saulot.
    Last edited by Baaldam; 05-21-2022, 05:36 PM.

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  • Reasor
    replied
    I dunno, do their souls really die? Or are they just buried under the stronger entity who took them in? What gauge would we use to measure that? There's clearly something junking up the diablerist's aura...

    Leave a comment:


  • SetiteFriend
    replied
    Originally posted by Reasor View Post
    Side tangent, but I absolutely love the fact that Saulot's soul's survival of his diablerie isn't unique anymore. It impacts the flavor of the World of Darkness in a way that I like if the immortal soul is beyond the ability of a mere vampire to actually destroy. It affirms that there are greater powers at work than the vampires, without getting outside the game's lane and requiring crossovers to work.
    It's really an attestment of those vampire's power and will, rather than any indication of a greater power. If that was that case, you wouldn't just be able to erase younger kindred's souls.

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  • Reasor
    replied
    Side tangent, but I absolutely love the fact that Saulot's soul's survival of his diablerie isn't unique anymore. It impacts the flavor of the World of Darkness in a way that I like if the immortal soul is beyond the ability of a mere vampire to actually destroy. It affirms that there are greater powers at work than the vampires, without getting outside the game's lane and requiring crossovers to work.

    Leave a comment:


  • Lysander
    replied
    So we might be looking at something like Mithras and Monty or Michael and Mari in other words. There should be a warning for weaker generation about the perils of diablerizing potent methusalths when they learn about it.

    Leave a comment:


  • Baaldam
    replied
    Originally posted by Lysander View Post
    Originally posted by Baaldam View Post

    True, plenty of wars in the late middle ages and renaissance for one to fit a "dark ages equivalent" into. But yeah, Dylan is not a great fit anyway, his whole reason to be cited in the first place is being the recurrent infernalist in BJD's plotline, truth be told. By that logic any other major infernalist NPC might do.


    Wasn't Khayt'all diablerized his childe a scant few decades after the 4th crusade for messing up so badly and weakening their clan's standing?

    Indeed, that was cited as his canon fate in his footnote in CoBN, but i'm pretty sure later books revised that and mention how he came up with some workarounds to survive Sarrasine's betrayal. Some bits and possible book sources are cited in his wiki write-up (that seems to posit him as a philosophical forerunner of the Ministry, among other things).

    As an aside, i suspect Khay'tall's return might have been inspired by his appearance in modern times as a VtES card. Not blaming the writer, whoever it is, for that, i also love to pull some random from them for plotlines with which to monkeywrench lore or metaplot expectations.


    [Speaking of which, check out the many versions of Sarrasine in VtES at the end of his write-up. One of these things is not like the other]
    Last edited by Baaldam; 05-19-2022, 08:23 AM.

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  • Reasor
    replied
    Originally posted by Shadeprowler View Post
    While true, during the sacking of Constantinople in 1204, Khay'tall was ambushed by his favorite childe, Sarrasine, who drained his corporeal form of all its vitae in an attempt of diablerie.
    But Khay'tall, who expected something like that, had his own heart previously removed via Serpentis and placed in a scarab amulet created by Gregorius Lakeritos.
    The amulet eventually came into the possession of the Setite Andreas Aegyptus/Ankhesenaten ("He-Who-Lives-For-The-Sun-God"... what a strange name for a Settite...) who delivered the amulet to the Red Temple of Thebes.
    Okay, most of his clan regarded him as a heretic, thats true, but nothing further was described, and by the Revised Clanbook, tho' was a Founding Temple, the Red Temple, located in Thebes within modern Luxor, now largely deserted...
    Who knows, that amulet and the essence of Khay"tall potentially could be still there or "survived" to the modern day
    And given Michael fondnes of that Snake, its not out of the realm of possibility, he would eventually try to find it to "resurrect" the Snake of the Garden
    Actually, both Michael and Mary would have a good reason; Mihael the same reason he had in the first place when accepted him in his city, and Mary for the exact reason he did with that opportunity, dragging down the Dream to Hell...
    Anyhow would be a really neat little story idea
    I had not thought of Khay'tall, but if he is still around or waiting to be brought back from torpor, that diablerie attempt by Sarrasine might arguably fit Michael's stated criteria of a Kindred who was killed and brought back. That he has a history with Michael makes him all the better as a choice for Michael's third.

    Leave a comment:


  • Herr Meister
    replied
    Originally posted by Shadeprowler View Post
    While true, during the sacking of Constantinople in 1204, Khay'tall was ambushed by his favorite childe, Sarrasine, who drained his corporeal form of all its vitae in an attempt of diablerie.
    But Khay'tall, who expected something like that, had his own heart previously removed via Serpentis and placed in a scarab amulet created by Gregorius Lakeritos.
    The amulet eventually came into the possession of the Setite Andreas Aegyptus/Ankhesenaten ("He-Who-Lives-For-The-Sun-God"... what a strange name for a Settite...) who delivered the amulet to the Red Temple of Thebes.
    Okay, most of his clan regarded him as a heretic, thats true, but nothing further was described, and by the Revised Clanbook, tho' was a Founding Temple, the Red Temple, located in Thebes within modern Luxor, now largely deserted...
    Who knows, that amulet and the essence of Khay"tall potentially could be still there or "survived" to the modern day
    And given Michael fondnes of that Snake, its not out of the realm of possibility, he would eventually try to find it to "resurrect" the Snake of the Garden
    Actually, both Michael and Mary would have a good reason; Mihael the same reason he had in the first place when accepted him in his city, and Mary for the exact reason he did with that opportunity, dragging down the Dream to Hell...
    Anyhow would be a really neat little story idea

    Now that you mentioned, you made it look more interesting. Perhaps I can find a use for him, that looks like a very interesting idea,I love this kind of story that defy people's normal assumptions of cainites.

    Leave a comment:


  • Shadeprowler
    replied
    While true, during the sacking of Constantinople in 1204, Khay'tall was ambushed by his favorite childe, Sarrasine, who drained his corporeal form of all its vitae in an attempt of diablerie.
    But Khay'tall, who expected something like that, had his own heart previously removed via Serpentis and placed in a scarab amulet created by Gregorius Lakeritos.
    The amulet eventually came into the possession of the Setite Andreas Aegyptus/Ankhesenaten ("He-Who-Lives-For-The-Sun-God"... what a strange name for a Settite...) who delivered the amulet to the Red Temple of Thebes.
    Okay, most of his clan regarded him as a heretic, thats true, but nothing further was described, and by the Revised Clanbook, tho' was a Founding Temple, the Red Temple, located in Thebes within modern Luxor, now largely deserted...
    Who knows, that amulet and the essence of Khay"tall potentially could be still there or "survived" to the modern day
    And given Michael fondnes of that Snake, its not out of the realm of possibility, he would eventually try to find it to "resurrect" the Snake of the Garden
    Actually, both Michael and Mary would have a good reason; Mihael the same reason he had in the first place when accepted him in his city, and Mary for the exact reason he did with that opportunity, dragging down the Dream to Hell...
    Anyhow would be a really neat little story idea
    Last edited by Shadeprowler; 05-19-2022, 02:30 AM.

    Leave a comment:


  • Herr Meister
    replied
    Originally posted by Lysander View Post
    I remember reading it in Khayt'al write up in Constaninople By Night. In the destiny section, it mentions that he is betrayed by his childe and got consumed for his mistakes.


    True, just saw here on the book, for some reason I didn't remember it, I've never been a fan of the character tbh, but it's funny that while he wanted to influence Michael, he ended up being the one influenced by the Methuselah...

    PS: For some reason I couldn't upload the photo from my computer and had to use a link, is there an explanation for that?
    Last edited by Herr Meister; 05-18-2022, 04:53 PM.

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  • Lysander
    replied
    I remember reading it in Khayt'al write up in Constaninople By Night. In the destiny section, it mentions that he is betrayed by his childe and got consumed for his mistakes.

    Leave a comment:


  • Herr Meister
    replied
    [QUOTE=Lysander;n1481384]
    Originally posted by Baaldam View Post

    True, plenty of wars in the late middle ages and renaissance for one to fit a "dark ages equivalent" into. But yeah, Dylan is not a great fit anyway, his whole reason to be cited in the first place is being the recurrent infernalist in BJD's plotline, truth be told. By that logic any other major infernalist NPC might do.




    Wasn't Khayt'al diablerized his childe a scant few decades after the 4th crusade for messing up so badly and weakening their clan's standing?

    Is it in the Dark Ages Setite Novel? Unfortunately I didn't read the DA Setite novel, I couldn't bring myself to care about the protagonist, so if it's there it explains what you said, as I don't remember reading about his destruction.

    Leave a comment:


  • Lysander
    replied
    [QUOTE=Baaldam;n1481209]

    True, plenty of wars in the late middle ages and renaissance for one to fit a "dark ages equivalent" into. But yeah, Dylan is not a great fit anyway, his whole reason to be cited in the first place is being the recurrent infernalist in BJD's plotline, truth be told. By that logic any other major infernalist NPC might do.


    Originally posted by Herr Meister View Post
    Yes, by changing the story a bit (By the way, his destruction always felt a bit too "weird" or "convenient" to me, so to speak), Caius is a great candidate indeed. I would add that I agree that his given stats are terribly underwhelming (as were the original for Marcus Verus, as you mentioned, V20 kind of fixed it, though), so underwhelming it almost sound as if it was made on purpose lol, but that's very easy to fix. I think he possesses the qualities to fill the role and as obsessed as he was about Michael, he is certainly better than the other alternatives at least.

    Obviously the writer was much more of a Belisarius fanboy.

    Anyway, here goes a quick sketch of a fixed sheet for something of a springboard:



    Did some comparison to Belisarius for reference, tweaked a dot or two after looking into Alexia. More of a quick-&-dirty starting point than anything definite.

    ‚Äč


    Is it? I dare say it's his final death that is too convenient, 4th gens don't usually get neatly destroyed by decree, even if the one calling the Wild Hunt is another 4th gen....



    True, Khay'tal might not fit any particular element of the Trinity, but as "snake in paradise" of the Dream, the crucible of virtue tempered in the fires of temptation, i'd say he would be quite appropriate a character to involve itself in any kind of twisted return of Michael's work.
    Wasn't Khayt'al diablerized his childe a scant few decades after the 4th crusade for messing up so badly and weakening their clan's standing?

    Leave a comment:

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