Gratiano’s perceived generation

[glamourweaver]

So I know in reality [Lasombra] wasn’t diablerized, as his soul escaped the destruction of his body and entered the Abyss. But Kindred society believes Gratiano ate him, right? And Gratiano was embraced as 4th Gen. So shouldn’t vampiric society believe Gratiano should be a 3rd Gen pseudo-Antedeluvian ala Tremere and Augustus Giovanni?

Seems like the easiest fix would be if Gratiano was a higher Gen Anarch than that and so while’s it’s believed he was the member of the gang eating [Lasombra] who got the soul, it makes sense it didn’t lower him all the way to third himself.

[Baaldam]

So I know in reality [Lasombra] wasn’t diablerized, as his soul escaped the destruction of his body and entered the Abyss. But Kindred society believes Gratiano ate him, right? And Gratiano was embraced as 4th Gen. So shouldn’t vampiric society believe Gratiano should be a 3rd Gen pseudo-Antedeluvian ala Tremere and Augustus Giovanni?

Seems like the easiest life fix would be if Gratiano was a higher Gen Anarch than that and so while’s it’s believed he was the member of the gang eating [Lasombra] who got the soul, it makes sense it didn’t lower him all the way to third himself.

How would kindred guess either way considering you need Thaumaturgy and the individual's vitae to determine precise generation?

[glamourweaver]

How would kindred guess either way considering you need Thaumaturgy and the individual's vitae to determine precise generation?

I would just assume that Gratiano would be a bigger figure in the popular understanding of the Cainites if he was believed to be a 3rd Gen vampire on par with Augustus and Tremere in power.

[Hello]

I would just assume that Gratiano would be a bigger figure in the popular understanding of the Cainites if he was believed to be a 3rd Gen vampire on par with Augustus and Tremere in power.

The thing about tremere and giovanni is that they have completely mastered their respective fields of blood magic, thaumathurgy for tremere and necromancy for giovanni. Mastery of blood magic gives these two an almost unmatched understanding of how the universe functions. Gratiano has never been stated to understand how abyss mysticism works, given what I read about him, it doesent seem like he would have much knowledge on it. Compared to thaumathurgy and necromancy, it is also extremely limited in scope. Dont get me wrong, abyss mysticism is powerful, but the other two allow you far more versatility. With thaumathurgy I can control technology and shoot fireball, and with necromancy I can explore the realm of the dead and manipulate the souls of the deceased.

[glamourweaver]

The thing about tremere and giovanni is that they have completely mastered their respective fields of blood magic, thaumathurgy for tremere and necromancy for giovanni. Mastery of blood magic gives these two an almost unmatched understanding of how the universe functions. Gratiano has never been stated to understand how abyss mysticism works, given what I read about him, it doesent seem like he would have much knowledge on it. Compared to thaumathurgy and necromancy, it is also extremely limited in scope. Dont get me wrong, abyss mysticism is powerful, but the other two allow you far more versatility. With thaumathurgy I can control technology and shoot fireball, and with necromancy I can explore the realm of the dead and manipulate the souls of the deceased.

Even without mysticism, he’d still be believed to be able to achieve the level mastery of other Disciplines as an Antedeluvians (not that “level 10” is an in-game-world concept, but that degree of might), which should make him one of the most feared being walking the Earth for other Sabbat vamps.

[Black Fox]

I agree that there is some discontinuity between Gratiano and the other slayers of antedeluvians. For some clans, someone slaying and diablerizing their founder (Tremere, Giovanni) meant new clans were founded. For others (Lasombra, Tzimisce, Brujah) the clan survived. I think the difference is that the former seemed intent on destroying all the other childer of the antedeluvian, while the latter didn't.

In terms of the Sabbat, neither of the slayers of the antedeluvians seemed to become really important in that sect. Since Lugoj was really Tzimisce, and he quickly disappeared this was understandable. But Gratiano remained within the Sabbat as merely an Archbishop. And he doesn't seem to be heavily involved in the sect in terms of being someone who helped decide things such as revising the Code of Milan or the various civil wars. We're just not given many details on him so it seems he hasn't done much. And maybe he hasn't.

The simplest explanation is that canon gets its slightly wrong. Yes, Gratiano helped destroyed the Lasombra antedeluvian (in popular imagination). But he didn't diablerize him. No one did. They just destroyed him.

In my own chronicles, a popular rumor is that Gratiano and the other Anarchs found an empty tomb when they raided the castle - just darkness before they stuck their torches inside looking for a body they never found. They claimed they destroyed the antedeluvian, but some believe he didn't. In any case, he is not accorded the status as one of the 3rd generation, but he is highly regarded within the Sabbat.

[Shadeprowler]

Very strange situation, very strange...
As if like some very high level Dominate power would have been in work, that affeced the whole world... or at least everyone involved
Naaah
Who would had such power and would have done somehing like that...?

[Baaldam]

Or he did diablerize the Lasombra antediluvian - or is at least perceived as doing so - but has played the role of eminence grise since, letting others do the drudge work of directing the rabble while he delves ever deeper in understanding what he actually got out of this play after all.

Augustus is very "visible" because he's not only a clan leader but a paterfamilias of sorts for the Giovanni as a whole.

Tremere actually much less so (outside of the Goratrix switcheroo in Transylvania Chronicles), but the Council in Vienna with its presence makes a pretty good work of lionizing him on kindred imaginary people keep forgetting he probably spent 2/3 of his undead existence in torpor or engaged in a losing battle of wills with at least one antediluvian, and might actually have much less effective experience than Etrius, Goratrix & Meerlinda because of it, in fact.

"Lugoj", as previously pointed has been on dirt nap since before the Hussite Wars i think.

So, to be wholy fair, while i'm familiar with the "perception of usurpation" of some characters, i never saw much in defense of either perception about Gratiano. Maybe he did, maybe he did not.
In fact his mostly nondescript but active presence sounds far more actually antediluvian than Augustus or Tremere heavy-handed pretensions, might be said.

(Not to mention who got caught and ganked by V5 canon to boot, but i digress in contentious terrain indeed, i guess, so better refrain from it. )

[Hello]

In the words of Montano,

"Gratiano boasts of his strength, but if he could do what the founder did, he would, and he does not."

[Lysander]

So I know in reality [Lasombra] wasn’t diablerized, as his soul escaped the destruction of his body and entered the Abyss. But Kindred society believes Gratiano ate him, right? And Gratiano was embraced as 4th Gen. So shouldn’t vampiric society believe Gratiano should be a 3rd Gen pseudo-Antedeluvian ala Tremere and Augustus Giovanni?

Seems like the easiest fix would be if Gratiano was a higher Gen Anarch than that and so while’s it’s believed he was the member of the gang eating [Lasombra] who got the soul, it makes sense it didn’t lower him all the way to third himself.

They would likely think that Gratiano is a member of the 3rd generation in terms of raw potential power, but he would be at a huge disadvantage to Set, Troile, Malkav, and Ventrue if they would meet and got into a battle of some sort. Come to think of it beings like Dracon, Montano, Mithras could really give him trouble if they play it smart.

[glamourweaver]

They would likely think that Gratiano is a member of the 3rd generation in terms of raw potential power, but he would be at a huge disadvantage to Set, Troile, Malkav, and Ventrue if they would meet and got into a battle of some sort. Come to think of it beings like Dracon, Montano, Mithras could really give him trouble if they play it smart.

But based on the sources we have on the topic, Tremere was held in fear when he’d only been third gen for like a century or two in VDA. Like, people are ripped apart and reassembled with a glance, those who look upon him sleeping feel compelled to blind themselves etc. Now with our out of game knowledge we might assume “yeah, because that was actually Saulot’s raw power” but characters in setting don’t know that. That’s just what it’s believed the third Gen are inherently like.

[Lysander]

The Tremere were an unknown quality and upset the status quo greatly with there leader consuming Saluot after they wrenched immortality from the Fiends earlier. If I recall correctly wasn't Tremere group already centuries old mages before they became cainites and would have greater arcane knowledge then Gratiano would ever know or care to learn.

For some reason I see Gratiano mastering Dominate, Presence and Potence and other physical disciplines first.

[Herr Meister]

The Tremere were an unknown quality and upset the status quo greatly with there leader consuming Saluot after they wrenched immortality from the Fiends earlier. If I recall correctly wasn't Tremere group already centuries old mages before they became cainites and would have greater arcane knowledge then Gratiano would ever know or care to learn.

For some reason I see Gratiano mastering Dominate, Presence and Potence and other physical disciplines first.

Yes, there's no comparison between the two, lol. The Tremere were already mages for a long time, and they converted a lot of their magical knowledge into Blood Magic, they also had for a long time many mages in the order (Etrius even wanted to keep them for longer, etc), besides everything they could get from their time as mages, in the form of people owing them favours, artficats, resources, etc (not to count the pacts it's implied they made with entities...). Also, they became vampires using true magick and they became vampires of low generation (if I'm not mistaken 5th). Heck, they were part of the Order of Hermes, by far the most powerful and important mage's fellowship of the period.

Besides, there's something a lot of people forget about vampire, power is in the blood. You don't necessarily need time to get powerful, you can absorb it through the amaranth. By consuming the soul of another cainite, if you succeed in controlling it, you can absorb the whole sum of power and knowledge the other cainite possessed.

Gratiano didn't even commit diablerie on Lasombra, if I remember correctly. So, even though he's a legendary member of the Sabbath, for "succeeding" in taking the mantle of an antediluvian (even though, tbh, he owes A LOT of this to Anosh, without whom he probably wouldn't have accomplished it), he's not nearly as powerful as an antediluvian, especially because he didn't take this mantle for himself, but instead gave it away to charity.

[glamourweaver]

Yes, there's no comparison between the two, lol. The Tremere were already mages for a long time, and they converted a lot of their magical knowledge into Blood Magic, they also had for a long time many mages in the order (Etrius even wanted to keep them for longer, etc), besides everything they could get from their time as mages, in the form of people owing them favours, artficats, resources, etc (not to count the pacts it's implied they made with entities...). Also, they became vampires using true magick and they became vampires of low generation (if I'm not mistaken 5th). Heck, they were part of the Order of Hermes, by far the most powerful and important mage's fellowship of the period.

Besides, there's something a lot of people forget about vampire, power is in the blood. You don't necessarily need time to get powerful, you can absorb it through the amaranth. By consuming the soul of another cainite, if you succeed in controlling it, you can absorb the whole sum of power and knowledge the other cainite possessed.

Gratiano didn't even commit diablerie on Lasombra, if I remember correctly. So, even though he's a legendary member of the Sabbath, for "succeeding" in taking the mantle of an antediluvian (even though, tbh, he owes A LOT of this to Anosh, without whom he probably wouldn't have accomplished it), he's not nearly as powerful as an antediluvian, especially because he didn't take this mantle for himself, but instead gave it away to charity.

You are correct that he didn’t, I have never claimed he should be that powerful - my point was he is widely BELIEVED to have diablerized [Lasombra] and thus should, for the very reason you just state BE BELIEVED to be now one of the very powers the Sabbat fears.

As Black Fox pointed out the whole situation would make a lot more sense if it was popular understanding that Grantier’s gang destroyed [Lasombra] but didn’t diablerize him. So he could be a legendary hero of the Sabbat but not be believed to have achieved 3rd Gen and absorbed an Antedeluvian’s power.

[Herr Meister]

You are correct that he didn’t, I have never claimed he should be that powerful - my point was he is widely BELIEVED to have diablerized [Lasombra] and thus should, for the very reason you just state BE BELIEVED to be now one of the very powers the Sabbat fears.

As Black Fox pointed out the whole situation would make a lot more sense if it was popular understanding that Grantier’s gang destroyed [Lasombra] but didn’t diablerize him. So he could be a legendary hero of the Sabbat but not be believed to have achieved 3rd Gen and absorbed an Antedeluvian’s power.

Oh sure the folks could BELIEVE it, in any case he was a member of the 4th generation, much more powerful than the average sabbath Joe. He's legendary, as I said and the fact that he didn't want any special position after he accomplished what he did, only makes it more intriguing (and narratively interesting).