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Gratiano’s perceived generation

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  • #16
    I think in 2nd edition there was a tradition in the Sabbat of diablerizing the Assamite antitribu's leader every century to pass on the power the first stole from the Lasombra antediluvian? I recall thinking at one point that it was widely known Gratiano betrayed his sire, which led to its overthrow, but that one of his Assamite co-conspirators actually drank its soul.

    Of course when Revised detailed the leadership of the Black Hand and stated that Izhim ur-Baal had been the leader of the bloodline since its founding, that sort of went out the window.

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    • #17
      Originally posted by Matt the Bruins fan View Post
      I think in 2nd edition there was a tradition in the Sabbat of diablerizing the Assamite antitribu's leader every century to pass on the power the first stole from the Lasombra antediluvian? I recall thinking at one point that it was widely known Gratiano betrayed his sire, which led to its overthrow, but that one of his Assamite co-conspirators actually drank its soul.

      Of course when Revised detailed the leadership of the Black Hand and stated that Izhim ur-Baal had been the leader of the bloodline since its founding, that sort of went out the window.

      In fact it was something present in the beginning, that is, the fact that the leader of the Assamite antritribu would pass the power ahead and be diablerized by another, etc, but no mention of Lasombra being diablerized. As far as I know, it was never stated that the Assamite diablerized Him. It is stated that they helped defeat the defenders of the Castillo d'Ombro and we know it was Dastur Anosh the leader of the Assamites there, but he didn't commit amaranth on the Lasombra Ante.

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      • #18
        Originally posted by Matt the Bruins fan View Post
        I think in 2nd edition there was a tradition in the Sabbat of diablerizing the Assamite antitribu's leader every century to pass on the power the first stole from the Lasombra antediluvian?
        This was stated in the original Players Guide to the Sabbat in 1992. I think rather than an Assamite diablerizing him, the idea was that the entire gang of Anarchs And Assamites lead by Gratiano feasted on him together. But if anyone performed actual diablerie, in the end only one could do it.

        Originally posted by Players Guide to the Sabbat
        Instead, they ritually slay the eldest of their own clan every 100 years through a special diablerie ceremony. This elder has some of the blood of the Lasombra founder, a third generation vampire, running through his veins. The elder exists for a century as the closest Assamite antitribu to Caine himself, ruling under the title Hulul. At the end of the 100-year reign, the next in line drinks the precious vitae from the previous ruler, and so it passes it through history.
        As written, it's not quite clear what the purpose is. The original Hulul might have partially drank some vitae from the Lasombra antedeluvian. But since he was not the one who diablerized him, it wouldn't transfer any benefits under normal mechanics. Yes, it was potent blood, and sometimes the game temporarily gives some boosted powers because of that. But there's no reason to think that would have somehow permanently increased a vampire's power, or that it in turn can be handed down to another.

        There might have been some strange secret intended before White Wolf chucked the Dirty Secrets of the Black Hand out of continuity. There we learned that the Assamite anti-tribu were one of the few bloodlines whose members were eligible to join the Tal'mahe'Ra. (Neither the mainline Assamites nor the Lasombra or Lasombra anti-tribu were eligible). Their origins lay not in the Anarch Revolt, but as a group of rogue assassins who disobeyed the Old Man of the Mountain much earlier. It's not quite clear if they joined the Tal'mahe'Ra centuries prior to the Anarch Revolt or during it, but the Tal'mahe'Ra had obviously been watching them for some time before offering membership.

        We also learned that the False Hand was created during the Camarilla-Sabbat wars so that the False Hand members could have an elite fighting force. Compare to the Players Guide to Sabbat which state explicitly that the Assamite anti-tribu formed the Black Hand and provided most of its members. The two combined means that at least some, if not all, of the leadership of the Assamite anti-tribu were members of the Tal'mahe'Ra. Were the Assamites recruited by Gratiano actually members of the Tal'mahe'Ra? It appears so to me. Does this mean that role of the Hulul and its ritual diablerie serve some sort of purpose for the Tal'mahe'Ra? (Also note that as originally written, the Assamite anti-tribu were very different than the rest of the Sabbat in what kind of mortals they turned - they didn't use shovelheads which was common among the other clans in the sect.)

        The Tal'mahe'Ra intends to destroy the Sabbat Lasombra because they dared to strike the antedeluvians - but it's not clear why they wouldn't accept the Lasombra anti-tribu as members. Or perhaps why they had never recruited Lasombra. Does the Hulul supposedly having the blood of the Lasombra antedeluvian in him relate to this at all?

        A careful reading of the sourcebook reveals a lot of secrets, but also provides a lot of obscure comments and contradictions. It's hard to determine what may have been intended in Greenberg's version of Vampire, or what may have been inadvertent mistakes that mean nothing.

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        • #19
          Originally posted by glamourweaver View Post

          I would just assume that Gratiano would be a bigger figure in the popular understanding of the Cainites if he was believed to be a 3rd Gen vampire on par with Augustus and Tremere in power.
          You going to be the one to insult him by insinuating you don't believe him with your demand that he prove it by getting examined?


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          • #20
            Originally posted by Mizu View Post

            You going to be the one to insult him by insinuating you don't believe him with your demand that he prove it by getting examined?

            Again, my problem is not that people inaccurately think he's more powerful than he is. My problem is THEY DON'T. If he's believed to have diablerized [Lasombra], he should be regarded as one of the most terrifyingly powerful beings walking the Earth by the vampires who haven't done what you're joking about them being too terrified to do - BUT THEY DON'T. He's an afterthought.

            As Black Fox said, the whole situation would make more sense if it was believed the Anarch gang successfully destroyed [Lasombra], but the idea that Gratiano diablerized him wasn't a thing, or wasn't taken seriously.


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            • #21
              I also remember that Lucita noted when she encountered Gratiano with her band and she noted that the great rebel was mixing up his date of Lasombra's and Tzismce final deaths and not even noting it. We used that as the basis for the fall of the Sabbat in our game when word spread that the childe of Lasombra had been mentally conditioned to believe what had happen.


              What in the name of Set is going on here?

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              • #22
                Honestly the entire Lasombra plot was Built to look as scetchy as possible. No one who was part of the extermination mission remembers what happened with any detail, just what believe happened.

                With all the details we Do know(including the fact that lasombra themselves is 100% alive as some kind of abyssal god) the "diablerie" probably consisted of a lot of early sabbat standing around hypnotized by dominate as the Lasombra Ante finished their Ascention ritual completely unmolested a few feet away. Post ascension Lasombra then gave their dominate zombies a vague-but-possible story to satisfy them along with the leftovers of the ritual as proof of "Killling" the ante, before promptly leaving to move on with their unlife.

                The overwhelming irony of the sabbat is that they're the worst faction at their stated mission of "killing the Antedeluvians". The only Ante's they "Killed" are 100% alive and treated their "uprising" with complete disintrest as they had better things to worry about at the time(both essentially busy ascending to godhood). The Camarilla, Anarchs, and Independents have arguably a better track record "killing" ante's, and even then they were either semi-successful at best(tremere and augustus) or had their Ante's doing it for them(the death of Bruha to Triole or Ventrue?[might not actually be dead] in the first city).
                Last edited by Prometheas; 05-14-2022, 10:04 AM.

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by Prometheas View Post
                  ad their Ante's doing it for them(the death of Bruha to Triole or Ventrue?[might not actually be dead] in the first city).
                  Second City I believe (no one who died in the First City was around to survive the flood and be an Antediluvian), but yes agreed


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                  • #24
                    I did like how the Tzmisce antidevulian pulled a fast one on the clan by posing as it's would be Brutus and can be thought as not being tied to one body and can show up in any member of it's clan.


                    What in the name of Set is going on here?

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Prometheas View Post
                      The overwhelming irony of the sabbat is that they're the worst faction at their stated mission of "killing the Antedeluvians". The only Ante's they "Killed" are 100% alive
                      This was always the irony of the Sabbat. We knew that Tzimisce was alive ever since 1992's entry on Lambach in Children of the Inquisition. I believe it took some more sourcebooks before it was obvious that Lasombra had survived as well. Can't recall at which ones. Plus in the Greenberg era, much of the Black Hand and other leaders of the Sabbat were in fact members of a pro-antedeluvian cult.

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                      • #26
                        I believe Gratiano made a great show of submitting to the egualitarian principles of the early Sabbat AND he claimed the Antediluvian was slayed by himself and a cadre of Assamite assassins so he should be perceived as a 4th gen (which doesn't make much difference in the eyes of a blood-crazed, newly created Sabbat shovelhead I guess...) for those who keep note of such things.

                        That said in my old Chronicle of Ages Gratiano was really the loyal childer of his "father". He and the Assamites consumed Lasaombra's heartblood but only after Lasombra brainwashed them and enacted a ritual that allowed him to send a part of himself to the Abyss while keeping the others "living" inside the would be diablerists. Lasombra spent an untold amount of time in the Abyss (because time, if it exists, works differently in the Abyss) and emerged for Gehenna, recalling those who had a piece of his soul in order to consume them and become a veritable god of darkness on our world... or he would have done so, if the PCs had not interefered...

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by glamourweaver View Post

                          Second City I believe (no one who died in the First City was around to survive the flood and be an Antediluvian), but yes agreed
                          This really depends. In Gehenna one of the scenarios has Ilyes (Brujah) travel in time from 2000s earth right from the second city. Generally speaking the fates and actions of the Brujah, Ventrue and Toreador antes were less developed than tthose of their fellow 3rd gens

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Haquim View Post
                            This really depends. In Gehenna one of the scenarios has Ilyes (Brujah) travel in time from 2000s earth right from the second city. Generally speaking the fates and actions of the Brujah, Ventrue and Toreador antes were less developed than tthose of their fellow 3rd gens
                            Well with Ilyes agreed things are up in the air because nothing necessarily happened in a linear order for him. It is in fact plausible that Troile diablerized Ilyes in the First City, survived the flood and founded Clan Brujah after, and Ilyes just time traveled from before his diablerie to a later point to create the “True Brujah” (making the True Brujah younger than the Brujah but still created by the site that Troile diablerized).

                            But anyone else, I stand by if they died in the First City they were never an Antedeluvians in the first place since they didn’t survive the flood and create the 4th Gen after.
                            Last edited by glamourweaver; 05-14-2022, 09:27 PM.


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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by glamourweaver View Post

                              Well with Ilyes agreed things are up in the air because nothing necessarily happened in a linear order for him. It is in fact plausible that Troile diablerized Ilyes in the First City, survived the flood and founded Clan Brujah after, and Ilyes just time traveled from before his diablerie to a later point to create the “True Brujah” (making the True Brujah younger than the Brujah but still created by the site that Troile diablerized).

                              But anyone else, I stand by if they died in the First City they were never an Antedeluvians in the first place since they didn’t survive the flood and create the 4th Gen after.
                              Canonical lore states that the first city ended with the flood. The second city is when the antediluvians killed their sires, were cursed by Caine and turned on each other. If you merge this lore with DtF lore things become more complex

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                              • #30
                                I heard a rumor on the Internet about something called the Ritual of the Bitter Rose that a group of Kindred to share in one Diablerie. Could that have been what happened to Lasombra?

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