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  • #16
    Originally posted by SetiteFriend View Post
    No clan should be inherently more evil or good. You can have good vampires without a dedicated Good Guy clan.
    How true
    One of my favorite charater was a Baali "antitribu"
    And Good is relative, especially when the opinion comes from semeone who is cursed/Damned/parasite
    Before Tremere ate Saulot and the Salubricide begun, they were a High Clan... and had no problem to look down the Low clans
    The better and "Holier Than Thou" attitude was never really liked anyhow, not to mention the healers were worst of the preachers and the warriors were zaelots
    The Salubri basically were the Apis and the Grondr of the Cainite species. The Grondr saw little difference between the taint of the Wyrm and overwhelming pride, ambition, and cruelty. Grondr investigators would stop short of murdering another Fera for the crime of vainglory, but they were not above teaching her a lesson. A Grondr’s lessons were rough, painful, and humiliating — made all the worse by the breed’s hypocrisy. And the Apis skill of breeding was a recepie for disaster; they belived they knew what is important. For example, the Apis considered it their responsibility to discover and enhance their charges’ natural talents; the Garou prized warriors above all else. Garou parents convinced themselves that their children should be warriors not out of any regard for the child, but because it would please the werewolf. Werewolves would return from long campaigns and insist that the Apis had made their child weak by teaching her music, animal husbandry, agriculture, mysticism, or other inglorious arts according to her natural inclinations. But this was true for the other Fera too...
    No wonder when the manure hit the fan, no one rushed to save the Grondr or the Apis...
    The Salubri were similar
    Nice guy Vampires sure, but every villain is the hero of their own story

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    • #17
      The Sabbat's pursuit of paths definitely has a spiritual component, Saulot's legendary status as a spiritual leader in ancient times involved ministering to his fellow vampires, and the Salubri Antitribu's primary motive was understandably revenge against the Tremere. I don't find the Sabbat to be a bad fit.

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      • #18
        Originally posted by SetiteFriend View Post
        Plus I don't do WoD as grimdark, as I don't think there is any gain from making the world worse than it already is. There are nice people out there, but they aren't generally members of the United Nice-People Faction (trademark pending).
        I mean, they kind of Are, even in real life.

        Charities, organized protests, political groups formed in response to a societal issue(a Good example is MADD in american history). There are plenty of examples of "organized good guy groups" in history. In fact, that's also why "organization falling from grace" is a trope, good guy groups do exist in real life and that's Why they can fall or fail.

        All good people aren't going to be part of the same "group" sure, but the salubri also aren't the only "good guy group" or even the only golconda faction.

        Originally posted by Shadeprowler View Post
        And Good is relative, especially when the opinion comes from semeone who is cursed/Damned/parasite
        What would being a vampire have to do with someone's moral compass? It's like saying all baali are evil, something you antitribu would probably take issue with.

        Originally posted by Shadeprowler View Post
        Before Tremere ate Saulot and the Salubricide begun, they were a High Clan... and had no problem to look down the Low clans
        The better and "Holier Than Thou" attitude was never really liked anyhow, not to mention the healers were worst of the preachers and the warriors were zaelots
        The Salubri basically were the Apis and the Grondr of the Cainite species. The Grondr saw little difference between the taint of the Wyrm and overwhelming pride, ambition, and cruelty. Grondr investigators would stop short of murdering another Fera for the crime of vainglory, but they were not above teaching her a lesson. A Grondr’s lessons were rough, painful, and humiliating — made all the worse by the breed’s hypocrisy. And the Apis skill of breeding was a recepie for disaster; they belived they knew what is important. For example, the Apis considered it their responsibility to discover and enhance their charges’ natural talents; the Garou prized warriors above all else. Garou parents convinced themselves that their children should be warriors not out of any regard for the child, but because it would please the werewolf. Werewolves would return from long campaigns and insist that the Apis had made their child weak by teaching her music, animal husbandry, agriculture, mysticism, or other inglorious arts according to her natural inclinations. But this was true for the other Fera too...
        No wonder when the manure hit the fan, no one rushed to save the Grondr or the Apis...
        The Salubri were similar
        Nice guy Vampires sure, but every villain is the hero of their own story
        Being obnoxious =/= being evil.

        I can definitely see a "holier than thou" attitude making them a lot of enemies, but that isn't the same thing as being evil. It's Especially nowhere near the baby-eating levels of evil present in even the less antagonistic clans.

        Especially when the examples you used were actually mostly Right(even if hypocrytical). The Apis and Grondir were on the money when they were saying that the garou were giving into vainglory and hyper-focusing too much on their job as warriors to the detriment of everything else, because those are that exact things that cause the wars of rage and shame that left the fera unable to stop the apocalypse. It was also the short-sited hatred of both the Apis and Grondir that left the fera with all the problems their extinction cased(the inability to replace their numbers and curb the spreading wyrm-taint respectively).

        Yes dealing with an obnoxious preacher sucks, but that doesn't make them wrong.

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        • #19
          I love the Salubri but I would really like to see Loresheets that opened up the Warrior caste conceptually. A Code of Samiel Loresheet or a Descendant of Adonai Loresheet (no the "antitribu" might not be in the Sabbat anymore but they can still exist).

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          • #20
            I dislike your writing style, it reminds me of some old radio play, but the idea is fairly good.

            I... like mysterious salubri. The 7 legend is a cool bit of mystery. One that shouldn't have a definite answer.
            Beyond that, I'm all in on warriors.

            I really don't like the idea of healer Salubri. If it were up to me, the idea that some Salubri were enlightened/benevolent is clearly anti-Tremere propaganda.
            The watchers just aren't interesting.


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            • #21
              For me, the castes work, as different experiments or contingency plans of the clan founder, along with the Tremere and possibly the Baali. If we take as given that he is or at one point was really serious about making the turning of the Wheel of Ages something he can exploit, then he demonstrates the smarts and the will to approach the problem from a variety of angles.
              Last edited by Reasor; 05-23-2022, 05:43 PM.

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              • #22
                Originally posted by MyWifeIsScary View Post
                I dislike your writing style, it reminds me of some old radio play, but the idea is fairly good.

                I... like mysterious salubri. The 7 legend is a cool bit of mystery. One that shouldn't have a definite answer.
                Beyond that, I'm all in on warriors.

                I really don't like the idea of healer Salubri. If it were up to me, the idea that some Salubri were enlightened/benevolent is clearly anti-Tremere propaganda.
                The watchers just aren't interesting.
                I would say the author just needs a few tweaks for readability.

                E.g., "Ever since the Salubri have been a secret shame" seems like it's setting up another clause about what's happened since they became a secret shame, but it isn't. So try "Ever since, the Salubri have been a secret shame". Though "secret shame" is admittedly odd wording. A "shameful secret" would be better.

                There's also a typo: "relievved" probably should be "revived", since that's the section about rediscovering the Warrior Caste. And you can probably adjust the line breaks so "small-but-growing" breaks after "small" and not in the middle of the word.

                These are all minor things.

                ETA: Also, can you share the second page? And maybe share the whole thing as a PDF instead of an image?


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                • #23
                  Thank you all so much for the feedback and the tips!

                  I added the second page and uploaded the two pages as a single pdf for those interested!


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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Gimmisky View Post
                    Thank you all so much for the feedback and the tips!

                    I added the second page and uploaded the two pages as a single pdf for those interested!
                    Thank you! This is good.

                    This line: "You have been approached by who you are sure are vampires of the unknowable Inconnu" would be clearer as: "You have been approached by those you are sure are vampires of the Inconnu" or even "You have been approached by vampires you are sure are members of the Inconnu".


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                    • #25
                      I am too a big fan of the Salubri, my first Vampire character and to this day one of my favorites was a Salubri. And I praise your creativity and writing skills, it may need some polishing, but overall it is very good. The art is wonderful, too.

                      But that said, I can't say I like the direction you took it, at all. You basically ditched everything the Salubri were about to make them palatable to the people that didn't liked the Salubri to begin with. You created a really interesting bloodline, but it just end up being another grimdark flavor in a gothic setting that has been overflown with grimdark flavors.

                      Originally posted by adambeyoncelowe View Post
                      My only slight reservation is that their reunification feels a bit Hecata-esque. So perhaps you could make it a bit more unique somehow?
                      Second that, but with an even more heavy-handed feel. Spontaneous clan-wide reunions are a tricky concept, specially if you want the idea that it happened against Saulot's wishes. What force drove them to that?

                      And in this you basically declared also a clan-wide cleanse that resulted in a group formed from new embraces on the spot. I mean, the new clan is whole formed by Fledglings and Neonates, how are they so tightly united and have such a strong cultural uniformity when most of them have been alive for a greater time than they have been dead?

                      Originally posted by SetiteFriend View Post
                      I'd prefer if it wasn't so focused on their history and didn't tie them as bad to the Sabbat.
                      That's another problem. Throwing them in the Sabbat because you see the Sabbat as the proper place for "advanced" clans not only isn't the best parameter, it is contrary to what V5 has been doing. There is no versatility, instead of the player being empowered to go beyond the clan description to make different characters, the clan is meant to be played just in a few ways, in one sect. Or be back to stage 1.

                      Originally posted by Prometheas View Post
                      I mean, they kind of Are, even in real life.

                      Charities, organized protests, political groups formed in response to a societal issue(a Good example is MADD in american history). There are plenty of examples of "organized good guy groups" in history. In fact, that's also why "organization falling from grace" is a trope, good guy groups do exist in real life and that's Why they can fall or fail.

                      All good people aren't going to be part of the same "group" sure, but the salubri also aren't the only "good guy group" or even the only golconda faction.
                      This.

                      Since clans as institutions is a thing, having institutions dedicated to doing good just makes perfect sense. It doesn't means every member is a perfect saint any more than any member from other clans can't be one. It doesn't means every member achieve to live up to the ideals of the clan (even their Ante arguably didn't), or even try. It doesn't mean you can't have good-but-obnoxious, evil-good-christian, and even those who don't buy into it at all. It is a clan, the clan description doesn't have to be complex, the characters have.

                      But not having any clan at all dedicated to something different and more humane morals is what doesn't make any sense from a setting perspective. Being a vampire does not immediately change your outlook in life, yet somehow everyone can only form EVIL cultural identities?

                      I love the Salubri and it upsets me that the setting never explored them more even when it expanded the clan (there are at least six official Salubri bloodlines). The arguments people give to justify disliking them also upsets me, because it is short-sighted more often than not, but the books never helped. But solving the problem by making the Salubri everything those people think they should be didn't solve anything.


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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by monteparnas View Post
                        Since clans as institutions is a thing, having institutions dedicated to doing good just makes perfect sense. It doesn't means every member is a perfect saint any more than any member from other clans can't be one. It doesn't means every member achieve to live up to the ideals of the clan (even their Ante arguably didn't), or even try. It doesn't mean you can't have good-but-obnoxious, evil-good-christian, and even those who don't buy into it at all. It is a clan, the clan description doesn't have to be complex, the characters have.

                        But not having any clan at all dedicated to something different and more humane morals is what doesn't make any sense from a setting perspective. Being a vampire does not immediately change your outlook in life, yet somehow everyone can only form EVIL cultural identities?

                        I love the Salubri and it upsets me that the setting never explored them more even when it expanded the clan (there are at least six official Salubri bloodlines). The arguments people give to justify disliking them also upsets me, because it is short-sighted more often than not, but the books never helped. But solving the problem by making the Salubri everything those people think they should be didn't solve anything.
                        That's something I tend to focus on a bit in my campaigns. The Camarilla, which prizes Humanity, often has high Humanity vampires running charities or otherwise working with people to improve their lot. They help out battered women, help organize food drives, etc. This helps them keep in touch with their Humanity. The Camarilla will also keep an eye on vampires and when they notice vampires losing Humanity and acting more monstrous, will encourage them to spend a few months working with these groups to try and rebuild their Humanity. It doesn't always work of course, but nobody wants to risk seeing their fellow vampires fall into wights.

                        As a result these pro-humanity organizations get donations and help from the Prince and the Camarilla as they're viewed as helping to protect the Camarilla and protect the vampires that make up the group.

                        Ultimately it only makes sense that when the Camarilla encourages vampires to cleave to Humanity, they would also offer some level of support for vampires seeking to maintain their Humanity. And some vampires look down their noses at these higher Humanity vampires, but at the same time they also recognize that they provide a valuable service and that losing ones ability to interact with kine and turning as monstrous as the Sabbat is not a good thing.

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by adambeyoncelowe View Post

                          Thank you! This is good.

                          This line: "You have been approached by who you are sure are vampires of the unknowable Inconnu" would be clearer as: "You have been approached by those you are sure are vampires of the Inconnu" or even "You have been approached by vampires you are sure are members of the Inconnu".
                          Can't believe I missed this! Thank you very much for the correction! <3

                          Originally posted by monteparnas View Post
                          Second that, but with an even more heavy-handed feel. Spontaneous clan-wide reunions are a tricky concept, specially if you want the idea that it happened against Saulot's wishes. What force drove them to that?

                          And in this you basically declared also a clan-wide cleanse that resulted in a group formed from new embraces on the spot. I mean, the new clan is whole formed by Fledglings and Neonates, how are they so tightly united and have such a strong cultural uniformity when most of them have been alive for a greater time than they have been dead?
                          The story behind this reunion would have been that The Seven would have had some sort of revelation about Saulot and their role under God (spontaneous or manipulated) and would have been Embracing other Salubri for a while, slowly amassing a sizeable group while taking advantage of the legends that their bloodline is a small little remnant. These Healers would have started approaching antitribu here and there and slowly gained their trust, until they were positioned to make a move against Adonai and his circle of warriors, who might have surrendered to infernalism or not (all these details are vague for obvious reasons). In the end of this coup, where the last pages of the Code of Samiel were burned and Adonai and his loyalists were killed, only these new childer of the Seven and the less vengeance-driven Salubri antitribu would have survived. With the only thing tying the Salubri back to their ways of old being The Seven, they sacrificed themselves. So the entire uniformity would come from the teaching of these Healers who are all tied to this seven vampires who had similar opinions about the fate of their bloodline. That is more or less the behind the curtains idea I had!

                          Originally posted by monteparnas View Post
                          That's another problem. Throwing them in the Sabbat because you see the Sabbat as the proper place for "advanced" clans not only isn't the best parameter, it is contrary to what V5 has been doing. There is no versatility, instead of the player being empowered to go beyond the clan description to make different characters, the clan is meant to be played just in a few ways, in one sect. Or be back to stage 1.
                          I believe there is room for all these approaches. Some clans are very malleable. Some clans are not. Some clans allow you to make a thousand concepts easily, and others require way more energy and time put into escaping the boundaries of their theme. I don't think there is any real issue with that, to be honest! As for the sects being split like that, it is just a thought I had. I wasn't too worried about what V5 is doing, as they just deleted the playable Sabbat entirely.

                          Thanks a lot for the feedback, though! This is all really good stuff and I am learning quite a bit.
                          Last edited by Gimmisky; 05-25-2022, 03:08 PM.


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                          • #28
                            Leaving the motivation for the clan reunion as a mystery for Storytellers to answer for themselves would be doing them a service. Whether it was driven from the top of the clan or the bottom, it's a Jyhad maneuver that promises long term repercussions from a discounted underdog; and if the official story doesn't quite add up, then the mystery is all the more compelling for it.

                            Maybe the clan finally caught wise that their founder deliberately abandoned them for new projects centuries ago, and are finally going their own way as a self-defined entity with their own agenda.

                            Taking the revelation that sufficiently old and powerful Cainites ride out being diablerized with predictable success, maybe the Seven have been playing a very long game indeed! Maybe the clan decided that ridding itself of the souls of Saulot's closest and most ancient lieutenants was necessary in order to move forward. Maybe the clan was no more successful at purging itself than the Sabbat has been in the Middle East, and the Seven are walking the Earth once again with new disguises. How sinister do you want the truth to be?

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Reasor View Post
                              Leaving the motivation for the clan reunion as a mystery for Storytellers to answer for themselves would be doing them a service. Whether it was driven from the top of the clan or the bottom, it's a Jyhad maneuver that promises long term repercussions from a discounted underdog; and if the official story doesn't quite add up, then the mystery is all the more compelling for it.

                              Maybe the clan finally caught wise that their founder deliberately abandoned them for new projects centuries ago, and are finally going their own way as a self-defined entity with their own agenda.

                              Taking the revelation that sufficiently old and powerful Cainites ride out being diablerized with predictable success, maybe the Seven have been playing a very long game indeed! Maybe the clan decided that ridding itself of the souls of Saulot's closest and most ancient lieutenants was necessary in order to move forward. Maybe the clan was no more successful at purging itself than the Sabbat has been in the Middle East, and the Seven are walking the Earth once again with new disguises. How sinister do you want the truth to be?

                              Yeah! It would be my personal choice to leave it up to the storytellers too. I feel like that way they can tailor the origins to the needs of their chronicle. I just like to have a version of it for myself, so I know where things are going in my own headcanon!


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                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Gimmisky View Post
                                The story behind this reunion would have been
                                The idea is good, it is just that it doesn't reads so well. One options would be, as SetiteFriend said, to not focus so much on their history. That way it would feel that the story is incomplete instead of a plot-hole, especially important since it is, indeed, the case.

                                But I really don't have much more to add. Those are not the Salubri for me.


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