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  • Gimmisky
    started a topic The Salubri moving forward

    The Salubri moving forward

    Hello everyone!

    First things first, huge Salubri fan here, if that isn't obvious. I wanted to do something for them that felt significant as I have a deep love for this setting and the lore, and even though I might never write for it in an official capacity, I really wanted to do something to showcase my appreciation for so many years of love and appreciation for muh Old World of Darkness. So this is is the little project that took form.

    One of the first things I wanted was to kind of shake the Salubri status quo around. They have always been pretty cool in my eyes but their stories were mainly focused on them being victims of circumstance/Saulot/Tremere and the two castes being very solidified as separate entities forever destined to remain broken and apart.

    So inspired by the little writing in Dark Ages that described a possible future where the Salubri were not hunted down to extinction, I was wondering if there was a possibility where they could organically rejoin in the future of the game/story. I came up with a lot of stuff, interactions between the Seven, Adonai, changes in philosophy and kind of shifted the Healers and Warriors into a more... Inquisitor/Paladin dynamic of some inquisition of Caine, abandoning their past (represented by Saulot, their fixation with Blooding) and moving forward with the Sabbat with a new (but history-based) identity.

    Long story short, just wanted to show this: https://www.docdroid.net/Ee64HFk/vam...bri-spread-pdf

    Thanks for reading! What do you think? Do the Salubri deserve a step forward? Are they cool as is? Do you like the clan?
    Last edited by Gimmisky; 05-24-2022, 04:46 PM.

  • Herr Meister
    replied
    I love the Salubri, really. It's interesting to wonder what if Goratrix's ritual actually worked as intended and the Tremere became immortal mages and the Salubri continued as a high clan?
    That seems like an interesting scenario to explore. In fact, this is one of the best things about playing Dark Ages (besides everything else that is just plaiin better, but that's another topic), we could play with changing what happened and how the future will be. What if the Traditions were able to crush the Order of Reason and then our history unfolded in a completelly different way?
    My main concern here is that, as much as I love the Salubri, "being a victim" is a very significant part of their identity. I'm not sure if I would like them all the same if they hadn't the idiosyncrasies they have as consequence of their history, etc.

    Leave a comment:


  • Mister_Dunpeal
    replied
    I've always kind of imagined the Salubri wanting to move forward as a bloodline (without Saulot in the picture, who is off doing his own thing depending on which iteration of the character you want to believe) and maybe they're coming to terms with their change in status, the way the world has evolved (both for mortals and vampires) and how they want to go ahead in it. There's alot of potential for contrast in that that might hearken back to the previous editions - that struggle for goodness, inner peace and/or redemption vs the realities of their condition, the world they find themselves in, and the others they have to contend with (good and bad.) Such a group might become a nucelus for other similar factions to be consolidated (Children of Osiris refugees, embittered Promethean survivors from DAV, etc. There are alot of ancillary factions and sub factions in VAmpire and Dark Ages vampire that could fall under the same conceptualization as Salubri.. sort of like what happened with the Hecata and some other Vampire groups, I guess.)

    Another interesting variation might be some Banu Haqim/Assamite rebels who end up allying with the group given their opposition to Ur-Shulgi. There's alot about the Banu Haqim that can lean into themes that overlap with the Salubri too.

    Leave a comment:


  • monteparnas
    replied
    Originally posted by Gimmisky View Post
    The story behind this reunion would have been
    The idea is good, it is just that it doesn't reads so well. One options would be, as SetiteFriend said, to not focus so much on their history. That way it would feel that the story is incomplete instead of a plot-hole, especially important since it is, indeed, the case.

    But I really don't have much more to add. Those are not the Salubri for me.

    Leave a comment:


  • Gimmisky
    replied
    Originally posted by Reasor View Post
    Leaving the motivation for the clan reunion as a mystery for Storytellers to answer for themselves would be doing them a service. Whether it was driven from the top of the clan or the bottom, it's a Jyhad maneuver that promises long term repercussions from a discounted underdog; and if the official story doesn't quite add up, then the mystery is all the more compelling for it.

    Maybe the clan finally caught wise that their founder deliberately abandoned them for new projects centuries ago, and are finally going their own way as a self-defined entity with their own agenda.

    Taking the revelation that sufficiently old and powerful Cainites ride out being diablerized with predictable success, maybe the Seven have been playing a very long game indeed! Maybe the clan decided that ridding itself of the souls of Saulot's closest and most ancient lieutenants was necessary in order to move forward. Maybe the clan was no more successful at purging itself than the Sabbat has been in the Middle East, and the Seven are walking the Earth once again with new disguises. How sinister do you want the truth to be?

    Yeah! It would be my personal choice to leave it up to the storytellers too. I feel like that way they can tailor the origins to the needs of their chronicle. I just like to have a version of it for myself, so I know where things are going in my own headcanon!

    Leave a comment:


  • Reasor
    replied
    Leaving the motivation for the clan reunion as a mystery for Storytellers to answer for themselves would be doing them a service. Whether it was driven from the top of the clan or the bottom, it's a Jyhad maneuver that promises long term repercussions from a discounted underdog; and if the official story doesn't quite add up, then the mystery is all the more compelling for it.

    Maybe the clan finally caught wise that their founder deliberately abandoned them for new projects centuries ago, and are finally going their own way as a self-defined entity with their own agenda.

    Taking the revelation that sufficiently old and powerful Cainites ride out being diablerized with predictable success, maybe the Seven have been playing a very long game indeed! Maybe the clan decided that ridding itself of the souls of Saulot's closest and most ancient lieutenants was necessary in order to move forward. Maybe the clan was no more successful at purging itself than the Sabbat has been in the Middle East, and the Seven are walking the Earth once again with new disguises. How sinister do you want the truth to be?

    Leave a comment:


  • Gimmisky
    replied
    Originally posted by adambeyoncelowe View Post

    Thank you! This is good.

    This line: "You have been approached by who you are sure are vampires of the unknowable Inconnu" would be clearer as: "You have been approached by those you are sure are vampires of the Inconnu" or even "You have been approached by vampires you are sure are members of the Inconnu".
    Can't believe I missed this! Thank you very much for the correction! <3

    Originally posted by monteparnas View Post
    Second that, but with an even more heavy-handed feel. Spontaneous clan-wide reunions are a tricky concept, specially if you want the idea that it happened against Saulot's wishes. What force drove them to that?

    And in this you basically declared also a clan-wide cleanse that resulted in a group formed from new embraces on the spot. I mean, the new clan is whole formed by Fledglings and Neonates, how are they so tightly united and have such a strong cultural uniformity when most of them have been alive for a greater time than they have been dead?
    The story behind this reunion would have been that The Seven would have had some sort of revelation about Saulot and their role under God (spontaneous or manipulated) and would have been Embracing other Salubri for a while, slowly amassing a sizeable group while taking advantage of the legends that their bloodline is a small little remnant. These Healers would have started approaching antitribu here and there and slowly gained their trust, until they were positioned to make a move against Adonai and his circle of warriors, who might have surrendered to infernalism or not (all these details are vague for obvious reasons). In the end of this coup, where the last pages of the Code of Samiel were burned and Adonai and his loyalists were killed, only these new childer of the Seven and the less vengeance-driven Salubri antitribu would have survived. With the only thing tying the Salubri back to their ways of old being The Seven, they sacrificed themselves. So the entire uniformity would come from the teaching of these Healers who are all tied to this seven vampires who had similar opinions about the fate of their bloodline. That is more or less the behind the curtains idea I had!

    Originally posted by monteparnas View Post
    That's another problem. Throwing them in the Sabbat because you see the Sabbat as the proper place for "advanced" clans not only isn't the best parameter, it is contrary to what V5 has been doing. There is no versatility, instead of the player being empowered to go beyond the clan description to make different characters, the clan is meant to be played just in a few ways, in one sect. Or be back to stage 1.
    I believe there is room for all these approaches. Some clans are very malleable. Some clans are not. Some clans allow you to make a thousand concepts easily, and others require way more energy and time put into escaping the boundaries of their theme. I don't think there is any real issue with that, to be honest! As for the sects being split like that, it is just a thought I had. I wasn't too worried about what V5 is doing, as they just deleted the playable Sabbat entirely.

    Thanks a lot for the feedback, though! This is all really good stuff and I am learning quite a bit.
    Last edited by Gimmisky; 05-25-2022, 03:08 PM.

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  • AnubisXy
    replied
    Originally posted by monteparnas View Post
    Since clans as institutions is a thing, having institutions dedicated to doing good just makes perfect sense. It doesn't means every member is a perfect saint any more than any member from other clans can't be one. It doesn't means every member achieve to live up to the ideals of the clan (even their Ante arguably didn't), or even try. It doesn't mean you can't have good-but-obnoxious, evil-good-christian, and even those who don't buy into it at all. It is a clan, the clan description doesn't have to be complex, the characters have.

    But not having any clan at all dedicated to something different and more humane morals is what doesn't make any sense from a setting perspective. Being a vampire does not immediately change your outlook in life, yet somehow everyone can only form EVIL cultural identities?

    I love the Salubri and it upsets me that the setting never explored them more even when it expanded the clan (there are at least six official Salubri bloodlines). The arguments people give to justify disliking them also upsets me, because it is short-sighted more often than not, but the books never helped. But solving the problem by making the Salubri everything those people think they should be didn't solve anything.
    That's something I tend to focus on a bit in my campaigns. The Camarilla, which prizes Humanity, often has high Humanity vampires running charities or otherwise working with people to improve their lot. They help out battered women, help organize food drives, etc. This helps them keep in touch with their Humanity. The Camarilla will also keep an eye on vampires and when they notice vampires losing Humanity and acting more monstrous, will encourage them to spend a few months working with these groups to try and rebuild their Humanity. It doesn't always work of course, but nobody wants to risk seeing their fellow vampires fall into wights.

    As a result these pro-humanity organizations get donations and help from the Prince and the Camarilla as they're viewed as helping to protect the Camarilla and protect the vampires that make up the group.

    Ultimately it only makes sense that when the Camarilla encourages vampires to cleave to Humanity, they would also offer some level of support for vampires seeking to maintain their Humanity. And some vampires look down their noses at these higher Humanity vampires, but at the same time they also recognize that they provide a valuable service and that losing ones ability to interact with kine and turning as monstrous as the Sabbat is not a good thing.

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  • monteparnas
    replied
    I am too a big fan of the Salubri, my first Vampire character and to this day one of my favorites was a Salubri. And I praise your creativity and writing skills, it may need some polishing, but overall it is very good. The art is wonderful, too.

    But that said, I can't say I like the direction you took it, at all. You basically ditched everything the Salubri were about to make them palatable to the people that didn't liked the Salubri to begin with. You created a really interesting bloodline, but it just end up being another grimdark flavor in a gothic setting that has been overflown with grimdark flavors.

    Originally posted by adambeyoncelowe View Post
    My only slight reservation is that their reunification feels a bit Hecata-esque. So perhaps you could make it a bit more unique somehow?
    Second that, but with an even more heavy-handed feel. Spontaneous clan-wide reunions are a tricky concept, specially if you want the idea that it happened against Saulot's wishes. What force drove them to that?

    And in this you basically declared also a clan-wide cleanse that resulted in a group formed from new embraces on the spot. I mean, the new clan is whole formed by Fledglings and Neonates, how are they so tightly united and have such a strong cultural uniformity when most of them have been alive for a greater time than they have been dead?

    Originally posted by SetiteFriend View Post
    I'd prefer if it wasn't so focused on their history and didn't tie them as bad to the Sabbat.
    That's another problem. Throwing them in the Sabbat because you see the Sabbat as the proper place for "advanced" clans not only isn't the best parameter, it is contrary to what V5 has been doing. There is no versatility, instead of the player being empowered to go beyond the clan description to make different characters, the clan is meant to be played just in a few ways, in one sect. Or be back to stage 1.

    Originally posted by Prometheas View Post
    I mean, they kind of Are, even in real life.

    Charities, organized protests, political groups formed in response to a societal issue(a Good example is MADD in american history). There are plenty of examples of "organized good guy groups" in history. In fact, that's also why "organization falling from grace" is a trope, good guy groups do exist in real life and that's Why they can fall or fail.

    All good people aren't going to be part of the same "group" sure, but the salubri also aren't the only "good guy group" or even the only golconda faction.
    This.

    Since clans as institutions is a thing, having institutions dedicated to doing good just makes perfect sense. It doesn't means every member is a perfect saint any more than any member from other clans can't be one. It doesn't means every member achieve to live up to the ideals of the clan (even their Ante arguably didn't), or even try. It doesn't mean you can't have good-but-obnoxious, evil-good-christian, and even those who don't buy into it at all. It is a clan, the clan description doesn't have to be complex, the characters have.

    But not having any clan at all dedicated to something different and more humane morals is what doesn't make any sense from a setting perspective. Being a vampire does not immediately change your outlook in life, yet somehow everyone can only form EVIL cultural identities?

    I love the Salubri and it upsets me that the setting never explored them more even when it expanded the clan (there are at least six official Salubri bloodlines). The arguments people give to justify disliking them also upsets me, because it is short-sighted more often than not, but the books never helped. But solving the problem by making the Salubri everything those people think they should be didn't solve anything.

    Leave a comment:


  • adambeyoncelowe
    replied
    Originally posted by Gimmisky View Post
    Thank you all so much for the feedback and the tips!

    I added the second page and uploaded the two pages as a single pdf for those interested!
    Thank you! This is good.

    This line: "You have been approached by who you are sure are vampires of the unknowable Inconnu" would be clearer as: "You have been approached by those you are sure are vampires of the Inconnu" or even "You have been approached by vampires you are sure are members of the Inconnu".

    Leave a comment:


  • Gimmisky
    replied
    Thank you all so much for the feedback and the tips!

    I added the second page and uploaded the two pages as a single pdf for those interested!

    Leave a comment:


  • adambeyoncelowe
    replied
    Originally posted by MyWifeIsScary View Post
    I dislike your writing style, it reminds me of some old radio play, but the idea is fairly good.

    I... like mysterious salubri. The 7 legend is a cool bit of mystery. One that shouldn't have a definite answer.
    Beyond that, I'm all in on warriors.

    I really don't like the idea of healer Salubri. If it were up to me, the idea that some Salubri were enlightened/benevolent is clearly anti-Tremere propaganda.
    The watchers just aren't interesting.
    I would say the author just needs a few tweaks for readability.

    E.g., "Ever since the Salubri have been a secret shame" seems like it's setting up another clause about what's happened since they became a secret shame, but it isn't. So try "Ever since, the Salubri have been a secret shame". Though "secret shame" is admittedly odd wording. A "shameful secret" would be better.

    There's also a typo: "relievved" probably should be "revived", since that's the section about rediscovering the Warrior Caste. And you can probably adjust the line breaks so "small-but-growing" breaks after "small" and not in the middle of the word.

    These are all minor things.

    ETA: Also, can you share the second page? And maybe share the whole thing as a PDF instead of an image?

    Leave a comment:


  • Reasor
    replied
    For me, the castes work, as different experiments or contingency plans of the clan founder, along with the Tremere and possibly the Baali. If we take as given that he is or at one point was really serious about making the turning of the Wheel of Ages something he can exploit, then he demonstrates the smarts and the will to approach the problem from a variety of angles.
    Last edited by Reasor; 05-23-2022, 05:43 PM.

    Leave a comment:


  • MyWifeIsScary
    replied
    I dislike your writing style, it reminds me of some old radio play, but the idea is fairly good.

    I... like mysterious salubri. The 7 legend is a cool bit of mystery. One that shouldn't have a definite answer.
    Beyond that, I'm all in on warriors.

    I really don't like the idea of healer Salubri. If it were up to me, the idea that some Salubri were enlightened/benevolent is clearly anti-Tremere propaganda.
    The watchers just aren't interesting.

    Leave a comment:


  • Random Goblin
    replied
    I love the Salubri but I would really like to see Loresheets that opened up the Warrior caste conceptually. A Code of Samiel Loresheet or a Descendant of Adonai Loresheet (no the "antitribu" might not be in the Sabbat anymore but they can still exist).

    Leave a comment:

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