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Powerful Methuselah or Antedilluvian Imposing his will on Camarilla?

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  • Powerful Methuselah or Antedilluvian Imposing his will on Camarilla?

    So, what is your take if a powerful Methuselah or Antediluvian awoke and decided to impose his will on the camarilla saying he wants to command the sect, otherwise he's going to force his will or cause havoc in the world?

  • #2
    I mean, this is a thought I believe has passed in everyone's mind at least once, once we know the scale of godlike powers they have. In any case, I'm asking more out of curiosity as something similar happened in BJD, with Artemis Orthia appearing before the Inner Concil of the Camarilla and telling them what to do, so to speak.

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    • #3
      I don't know how well that would work. The Camarilla is, for the most part, a pretty loose organization with the specific goal of preventing the mortal world from finding out vampires exist. It also exists as a forum for vampires to exchange favors and prestige. Individual Princes mostly run their own domains. You do have Justicars and Archons but for the most part, they only intervene when the Masquerade is threatened or when non-Camarilla vampires (like the Sabbat) get up to shenanigans. Overall, the Camarilla is a surprisingly "hands-off" organization.

      If a Methuselah or Antediluvian decided to try and bully the Inner Council into doing what it wants, I don't know how much of an effect that would end up having on the Camarilla on the whole. Like, if the Inner Council/Camarilla suddenly tried to start inserting itself more into local politics and making demands that Princes start engaging in some new activity or whatever, you'd see blowback and possibly rebellions from Princes. For the most part, Princes happy to be a part of the Camarilla because it increases their power, but they're not interested in being puppets to the Camarilla.

      So any Antediluvian or Methuselah would quickly run into the problem that, even if they could control the Inner Circle, that doesn't necessarily equate toexerting much power over the Princes and cities of the Camarilla. Ultimately the Inner Circle just doesn't have the manpower to force the Princes of the world to go along with their demands.

      So I think if something like this did happen, you'd see the Inner Council resorting to soft power, using bribes, blackmail and favors to convince Princes to implement this new paradigm. But at the same time, if Princes feel those plans and goals from the Inner Council are too confining or taking things in a direction they don't like, then those Princes will just say no thank you and if the Inner Council keeps pushing too hard to make Princes do things they don't want to do, you'd likely start seeing cities defect to the Anarchs or a full scale civil war.

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      • #4
        The Inner Circle of the Camarilla has as its members some of the most powerful active vampires. There's a reason the game has kept that more or less secret while giving us the names and even stats of the Justicars. We know that some cities' Princes and Primogen have been extremely powerful and ancient themselves, so the Inner Circle is likely to be at least as old and powerful as people like Khalid, Inyanga, Critias, and Mithras. (Or if not, it's because they are doing the bidding of vampires who are.)

        Any attempt to directly intimidate or force them will meet with huge resistance. Not only by the Inner Circle and their small army of Justicars and Archons, but also some of the Gehenna cults and many other elders. It will put a huge target on their back.

        That's why such ancient and powerful vampires typically choose to act more subtly through pawns or front organizations. Almost assuredly there are Methusalehs and Antedeluvians manipulating the Camarilla as a whole. It's less efficient, but far more safe.

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        • #5
          Are you implying that they don't already do that? Or that the Camarilla wasn't build By the Methusela and Antes that aren't big fans of this new-fangled anarch revolt or sabbat or whatever the neonates are calling it this century.

          The camarilla is already a massive ponzi scheme as is, I don't think anyone would even Notice a change in leadership especially when we consider things like elder+ levels of obfucate. The Ventrue Ante could have been awake the entire time and personally(or at least using Dominate 10: "You are now part of my Character Sheet") leading the Cammies for all we know.
          Last edited by Prometheas; 06-05-2022, 01:13 PM.

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          • #6
            I wouldn't be surprised if mithras has been trying fr centuries. He's definitely powerful for a 4th gen and has a rivalry with hardenstat.

            I guess the ventrue anti could have success because of his mastery of dominate and nobody would know what's happening.

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            • #7
              Originally posted by Herr Meister View Post
              So, what is your take if a powerful Methuselah or Antediluvian awoke and decided to impose his will on the camarilla saying he wants to command the sect, otherwise he's going to force his will or cause havoc in the world?

              The original Inner Circle members were all "youngsters" when it comes to Methuselahs or Ancients of the "old world"
              The Brujah Adana di Sforza was Embraced as a 5th generation vampire by Losario in 1093 CE
              The Gangrel Milov Petrenkov was Embraced as a 6th generation vampire by Scendrak in 974 CE (and died probably in 1495)
              The Malkavian Camilla Banes was Embraced as a 6th generation vampire by Mellandis in 1063 CE
              The Nosferatu Josef von Bauren was Embraced as a 6th generation vampire by an unknown Sire in 1006 CE
              The Toreador Rafael de Corazon was Embraced as a 5th generation vampire by Callisti y Castillo in 1182 CE
              The Tremere Mistress Fanchon was Embraced as a 6th generation vampire by Shavrael in 1357 CE
              The Ventrue Hardestadt (the Elder) was Embraced as a 5th generation vampire by an unknown Sire in 947 CE (weird, a Ventrue who can't trace his liniage back to the antediluvian or on of his 4th gen children...) and Presumably bit the dust in 1395 CE and was replaced by Hardestadt (the Younger) who himself was Embraced in 1191 CE who acted as if he was his Sire

              You see, the Camarilla was founded in 1435 CE
              Wich means, this new "fad" of the vampires was made by Vampires whe not even passed their 5th century.
              laughable in the eyes of such ancient mostorsities who were VERY active that time like Mithras, Menele, Critias, Helena, Shalmath, Montano, Ankla Hotep, Erik Eigermann or Neferu just to name a few...
              Back then if powerful Methuselah or Antediluvian, or even their sire would have awoke to impose his will on the young camarilla? They Inner circle would probably politely asked, whats thy bidding my master?
              Today?
              The camarilla still not celebrated it's 600th birthday, and we don't exactly know who is in the Inner Circle at the 21th century... but even if the originals remained in charge? A bunch of mostly 6th generation "elders'" who are barely thousand years old I highly doubt would have stand ANY chance against the will of a real ancient or an Antediluvian
              My two cent, this probably happened already, just nobody noticed
              Last edited by Shadeprowler; 06-05-2022, 01:52 PM.

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              • #8
                Yeah, I would never assume that any of the sixth generation vampires in the Inner Circle are operating independently of influence from further up their respective family trees.

                If anything, they were selected as a evolution of the Inquisition gambit; a public face to flush out Anarchs and diablerists, but this time with an institutionalized statelike monopoly on violence to put the threats down and maintain order.

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                • #9
                  I'd say Kemintiri - and Karsh, since Revised era - stories make a strong case for that having already happened, more than once even.

                  The real question imho is what for. Motivation is key and i suspect most meths & antes have more peculiar interests than herding/micromanaging princes & primogen or playing multi-tiered chess with domains in mind.

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                  • #10
                    What would happen if a rich and powerful billionaire decided to impose his will over US politics? He’d get in line, that’s what would happen. The political dynamics of the Camarilla are already determined by a complex network of elders, including methuselahs and Antediluvians, pulling the strings behind the scenes. If a new one awoke and starting trying to influence things, they could, but they would still just be one player in the game.

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Black Fox View Post
                      The Inner Circle of the Camarilla has as its members some of the most powerful active vampires. There's a reason the game has kept that more or less secret while giving us the names and even stats of the Justicars. We know that some cities' Princes and Primogen have been extremely powerful and ancient themselves, so the Inner Circle is likely to be at least as old and powerful as people like Khalid, Inyanga, Critias, and Mithras. (Or if not, it's because they are doing the bidding of vampires who are.)

                      Any attempt to directly intimidate or force them will meet with huge resistance. Not only by the Inner Circle and their small army of Justicars and Archons, but also some of the Gehenna cults and many other elders. It will put a huge target on their back.

                      That's why such ancient and powerful vampires typically choose to act more subtly through pawns or front organizations. Almost assuredly there are Methusalehs and Antedeluvians manipulating the Camarilla as a whole. It's less efficient, but far more safe.
                      We have inner circle vampires stats and they are weak. Ancillae+ on a good day.

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                      • #12
                        I'm definitely throwing my lot in with the "this is already happening as we speak". The Methuselahs/Antes simply don't advertise. Why would they?

                        The question is not "is the Camarilla controlled by even more ancient and powerful vampires?". It's "which ones, and to what end?".


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                        • #13
                          We have inner circle vampires stats and they are weak. Ancillae+ on a good day.
                          True, their stats are certainly not impressive.

                          They Inner circle would probably politely asked, whats thy bidding my master?
                          This is what I suspect would happen as well. In fact, this is supposed to be one of the things that is implied to have happened according to BJD, in the case of Artemis Orthia telling the Camarilla to destroy every kindred in Tunis (old Carthage) and the Brujah not liking the idea, making them leave the sect, etc.

                          I'm definitely throwing my lot in with the "this is already happening as we speak"
                          I feel it's very likely to have already happened on occasion and happening now.

                          That's why such ancient and powerful vampires typically choose to act more subtly through pawns or front organizations
                          True, most old vampires prefer to act in discreetly, although that's not the case for Artemis and her descendants by the way. They are known to prefer to take power by force and on the open.

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                          • #14
                            In the games I run, you can get a Gen boost by Diablerizing someone of equal or lower Generation, not just one of lower Gen (Gens 1-5 are earned via upgrading your Clan Disciplines). With this in mind, I very much see the Elders of both sects trading their pawns with the intention of Diablerizing them when they get powerful enough.

                            So, at least in my games, Methuselahs already are.

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by blailton View Post
                              We have inner circle vampires stats and they are weak. Ancillae+ on a good day.
                              I'll concede your superior knowledge of canon. But it's unfortunate. Any member of the Inner Circle should be someone capable of speaking on behalf of their clan which implies great personal power and incredible influence (of whatever persuasion) over the other clan elders. If it is someone who is relatively weak for an elder, it should still be someone who is a compromise candidate of the other more powerful elders who blocked each other (and thus theoretically enjoys all their support), or who does the bidding of the real power.

                              I wonder if this is a result of characters being revealed in Revised who attempted to tone down some of the more powerful canon NPCs of the earlier eras. (At least Rafael de Corazon had a story that explained why he had such influence among his clan although I wish it was a slightly better one).

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