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Why didn't the writers do more with the Independent Alliance?

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  • Why didn't the writers do more with the Independent Alliance?

    You all are VTM veterans so I wont go into what the Independent Alliance is here. If you don't know about it, a quick google search will suffice. It will take you less than a minute to read it's wiki page, more than enough to understand the gist of what the Independent Alliance is.

    I feel the Independent Alliance was a great new addition to VTM, and overall the WOD as a whole. So you will understand why I think it doesn't make sense to make it an only MET (Mind's Eye Theater) thing. The Independent Alliance had the potential to really shake up the status quo. Making it a rival to not only the Camarilla, but to the Sabbat and Anarchs as well would have really changed up how we view kindred as a whole.

    Most of us see the kindred as static being, but this completely invalidates that. Two clans that couldn't have been more different are forced to come together to survive. They do have some similarities, however the one that really stuck out to me is how both the Giovanni and Followers of Set are extremely spiritual, some more than others of course. This spirituality no doubt influences their perception of the world and of each other. It would have been a great thing to get into.

    We could have a practitioner of the Sepulchre Path, a practitioner of Revelations of Duat, and a practitioner of Path of Karma discuss the deeds and past life of a wraith, and judge whether or not the wraith in question deserves a second chance in life through reincarnation, or should be punished through eternal servitude. This would be an amazing exchange to read about, and would no doubt be an interesting scenario to put the players in. (If you don't know anything about the blood magic paths I described, you can look it up on google, or read the wiki page about it.)

    I am legitimately surprised the writers didn't use this in V20 or even V5. It would have sent waves through the fanbase and would have given the writers something new to work with.

    So why didn't they?
    Last edited by Hello; 06-12-2022, 12:43 PM.

  • monteparnas
    replied
    Originally posted by Hello View Post
    I thought the Giovanni coup was something most vampires didn't know about. Wasn't it something only a select few Camarilla elders new about?
    Most don't, but only in the sense that most people don't know the last capital of the Roman Empire was in Turkey. It isn't a secret by any means, just a little known bit of history trivia.

    The Giovanni coup was and is well known as far as Vampire Late Medieval History is well known. It couldn't be otherwise, as the family hunted the Cappadocians without any compunction and without propaganda, they simply did it and bought Camarilla's non-intervention through the Promise. That's also why a reasonable amount of people protected some Cappadocians anyway, as they didn't agreed to this madness, but even others weren't required to neither blame the Cappadocians or forget they existed, just get out of the way if they don't want problems.

    ‚ÄčAbout the Alliance, it is like MyWifeIsScary said. While the idea is neat, the actual Alliance doesn't really make much sense or needs to be in the Tabletop game in the way it was written. After all, what makes them distinct from the Cam or the Anarchs? Not even from a Doylist perspective, but even in-character.

    It was a need of MET because in LARP you can't have everyone playing an out-of-place character, and at the same time you should let everyone play whatever they want as far as possible. And it is important to keep in mind that while it is still a part of the IP, MET authors aren't the same ones as main setting authors, it is another company entirely making their own (authorized) alternate version of the setting. A lot of things do not translate well from one version to the other and they have distinct needs.

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  • MyWifeIsScary
    replied
    Because it's antithetical to how vampire politics function in setting
    Oh, right, that doesn't stop authors... Erhm
    Because politics in V5 needs to be binary: Cam Vs Anarch, Ministry vs Church, Tremere vs Carna, Red vs Blue; there's no room for a serious three-way.


    Let's be real. What your proposing OP is a contrivance for the sake of LARP. On one hand, the independents are independents BECAUSE they dance to their own tune and do things their own way. Suggesting the Assamites should hold hands with the Giovanni and FoS is like suggesting Ayn Rand and Karl Marx should team up because they don't like the way society's run. The Assamites have more problems with the FoS than they do the Camarilla. On the otherhand, this entire premise revolves around a fundamental misunderstanding of the Camarilla. It isn't an empire with an effective central government telling everyone what to do. It's a bunch of individually run city states who've made a few agreements. These agreements don't extend to the point that a prince can't happily welcome vampires from the other 6 clans or even the three independent sects. So long as the prince/rulling elders are in agreement, a Follower of Set may be a very welcome addition to the cityscape and elysium, so long as they keep to the rules like everyone else, it's fine. Why then would these vampires unite against such an amiable, welcoming organization (relative to their own dogmatic cults) and instead join hands with sects that are theologically opposed to one-another.

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  • Hello
    replied
    Originally posted by AnubisXy View Post
    The Independent Alliance always sat weird with me. The idea was that the Sabbat had started gunning hard for the Followers of Set and the Giovanni. I get the Sabbat going for the Followers of Set, but I have a hard time seeing them really going after the Giovanni. Those guys ate their Antedeluvian and killed tons of elders. Of all of the non-Sabbat clans, the Giovanni were the closest to being in line with Sabbat's ideals. Of course it's easy to come up with excuses, but really it always felt like the Giovanni should generally be pretty low on the Sabbat's shit list.
    I thought the Giovanni coup was something most vampires didn't know about. Wasn't it something only a select few Camarilla elders new about?

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  • AnubisXy
    replied
    The Independent Alliance always sat weird with me. The idea was that the Sabbat had started gunning hard for the Followers of Set and the Giovanni. I get the Sabbat going for the Followers of Set, but I have a hard time seeing them really going after the Giovanni. Those guys ate their Antedeluvian and killed tons of elders. Of all of the non-Sabbat clans, the Giovanni were the closest to being in line with Sabbat's ideals. Of course it's easy to come up with excuses, but really it always felt like the Giovanni should generally be pretty low on the Sabbat's shit list.

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  • The Gentleman Gamer
    replied
    It was invented for Mind's Eye Theatre and never appeared in canonical continuity. We discussed it as a possibility for V5 when setting up the status quo for that edition and decided it was better off not being included.

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  • adambeyoncelowe
    replied
    Well, MET and V20 have divergent canon. V20 came first, and MET went in several different and distinct directions. Part of that is that MET is designed to be more suitable for LARP, including making options for players to play the kinds of characters they want (this may be why, for instance, V5 basically allows you to play any clan in the Camarilla or Anarchs, instead of requiring some clans be Sabbat or always independent).

    That said, it's an interesting concept. But I suppose it's less necessary if the plan is to merge the Necromantic clans into one (the Hecata), put the Setites in the Anarchs and finally let the Assamites into the Camarilla. You're not really left with much to form an Independent Alliance at that point.

    It depends how much of the V5 metaplot was planned during V20 (or maybe V4 would've had yet another set of changes that would've replaced the need for an Independent Alliance).

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