Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

How come Vampires always used as a punching bag within the WOD?!

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • How come Vampires always used as a punching bag within the WOD?!

    It feels like vampires have become something of a running joke within the WOD game lines, whenever I read a post that talks about vampires going against the other splats, almost everyone in the comment section simultaneously goes "The vampire dies because 'Insert splat' is too strong". I have even read books which open with the main splat absolutely demolishing the vampire in question, no matter who it is. Yet I have never seen something like that happen in a vampire book. And when people do bring up the one thing vampires are supposed to have a lot of, which is their immense political and criminal influence within cities, I immediately begin to doubt that. Mostly due to how multiple books have already gone over how many of the other splats also have immense criminal and political influence within cities as well, and maybe other areas such as the umbra.

    The werewolves have the Silver fangs and the Shadow lords who seem to have kinfolk in different positions in multiple organizations, both legal and illegal. The bone gnawers seem to have immense influence among the poor, plus the glass walkers seem to have mastery of technology, and lets not forget about the other tribes and fera. Mages have the technocracy, and no doubt the traditions and crafts also have influence within both legal and illegal organizations. Demons have their cults, some of which have immense influence within the city they are located in. Witch hunters and the imbued seem to have some sort of organization behind them such as the Society of Leopold. I could write more but you all probably see where I'm going with this.

    A lot of times a vampires influence doesn't seem to even help. Who cares if that venture elder controls a City Hall? Nothings stopping a werewolf from jumping out of the umbra and setting them on fire, nothings stopping a mage from using coincidental magic to do the same thing, nothing stopping the society of Leopold from doing a drive by in public. Seeing as how vampires are hated by practically everything in the world of darkness, I am legitimately surprised that the denizens of the umbra, such as spirits and wraiths, haven't jumped out and started demolishing every haven.

    It doesn't even make sense why they are the most hated.

    The two other main splats are just as bad as vampires. The Technocracy and other magic factions really want control/freedom to do whatever they want at the end of the day and so do the werewolves and their tribes. This isn't so dissimilar to what vampires want. But for some reason a vampire is always going to be seen as the bigger evil, just because their "damned". Whats that suppose to even mean? They're damned because they drink blood? Hell, the amount of blood a vampire needs night to night doesn't seem like that big of an issue, as long as they have a bit of restraint they can leave their prey alive and go on their merry way. They're undead, so that makes them perversions against the natural order? Well mages can, and have become immortal in more ways than one, and have been known to manipulate reality to their whims. Werewolves are creatures that have a human body but an animals souls (simplification, but you get what I am trying to say), and have at one point in time tried to limit/exterminate humanity and have exterminated multiple fera who had important duties. They can turn others into vampires? Most don't want the competition. The ones who recklessly do are usually destroyed.
    Last edited by Hello; 06-17-2022, 12:09 AM.



  • #2
    Can you list specific examples?

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Father Enoch View Post
      Can you list specific examples?

      In the blood treachery where the hermetics attack a tremere chantry the strike force clears the tremere pretty easily.

      In a couple tribe books whenever they go against a vamp they take minimum casualties compare to the vamps, the silver fangs do take a couple fatalities in the shadow lord tribe book, but it's latter on revealed to have been put into motion by a shadowlord, so in other words the vamps were the suckers. In another tribe book I cant remember a pack of werewolves alboslutely demolish their vampire opponents with no casualties and only a couple heavy injuries. The pack battled the vamps on a basketball course, and they originally didnt know the person they were meetin vas a vamp because they hid their scent. Same happened in the previous encounter I mentioned which occured with a setite who was acting like dumb fledgeling even though he knew a good amount of sorcery which shows he was a neonate, even with the element of surprise and a plan that should have guaranteed victory they were still beat by werewolves attacking head on. there was some more but I cant remember properly.

      Even in their own clanbooks vampires are terrified of mages and werewolves. In the section of both splats that talk about vampires it seems both have immense hatred of kindered but not as much to each other .

      Sorry, kind of sloppy, on phone.


      Comment


      • #4
        Vampires have a nice numerical advantage when it comes to the position for "punching bags"
        Most of them are Humans who "just" tuned undead, recived a blood-transmitted curse and just got a set of problems
        The 90% of the Vampires of the World are either Fledgelings, neonate or ancillae at best, usually less than 50 years under their belt, and contrary to popular belief, ro be a vampire is not cool. It sucks. You have power? Yes. Powers that came from your damned nature or cursed blood or both. With tha added bonus, you are doomed to fail, thanks to Uriel's curse: "Caine and his childer to cling to Darkness, drink only blood, eat only ashes, and be frozen at the point of death, cursed so all they touch would crumble into nothing." if you are really serious. Blood-addiction, the Beast, the superiors (not necessarily elders, just others who are a tiny bit better than you) whole set of problems... and at the end of the day, they were just human.
        When it comes to the Big Boys? They pull serious punches and deffinitly not punching bags. It is just we see more of the young ones, who are yet to become powerfull
        Think it like the Worf Effect
        Want a quick way to show how dangerous one of your unknown characters is? Simple, make them do well or win in a fight with a character that the audience already knows is tough. This establishes them as willing to fight and marks them as sufficiently dangerous. For new villains, it's common for them to pick up the toughest character among the heroes and hurl them across the room or otherwise take them out in one blow, thus showing that they are the real deal. It's even a genuinely good strategy — take out the biggest and toughest in a group, and the rest will accept how tough you are instead of having to prove it over and over. When used sparingly and appropriately, this is a powerful way to establish said villain as a serious and credible threat, leaving the audience thinking, "Wow, they just beat up Worf! They must be bad news!" Named for the tendency in Star Trek: The Next Generation for hostile creatures to do that very thing to Worf.
        Vampires can be and eventually became powerhouses, but since they are basically the most numerous supernaturals (except the Hsien, but they are fragile) and have a very strange learning and power curve, they are simply fall in to this category; they are the Worfs of WoD, even when they are weak, just because they will be strong
        But in reality even the youngest and weakest vampires could be a really bad news, simply becasue they were Human - they share this with the Kuei Jin, except those crawled back from Hell and learned something - and this makes them one of the most dangerous things in WoD. Humans with powers and desperation.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Hello View Post
          It doesn't even make sense why they are the most hated.
          All the other splats are still bitter than a Malkavian went Deadpool, broke the forth wall, and revealed that they get all the plot armor because vampires sell the most books.

          A bit more seriously, vampires were written first, and everyone else is somewhat of a reaction to them, and VtM 1e implying every splat hates every other splats, while as the WoD grew, most of the splats have at least some significant avenues of at least coexistence with each other. Oddly the Technocracy and the Camarilla are generally on pretty good terms mind you.

          There's also plenty of fan annoyance at how various things play out. Vampires in the fiction of the game world regularly come out alive if not victorious against creatures that might not be all powerful, but are certainly fighting on their terms. For example the Tremere survived the First Massasa War with the Order of Hermes (during the Dark Ages, when the Hermetics were far stronger than in modern nights), while also fighting the Omen War against the Tzimisce/Gangrel/Nosferatu. This is ~200 years after the first members of the Tremere became vampires, so in an incredibly short amount of time, they converted the House into a Clan, mastered Thaumaturgy and Gargoyle creation, kept this massive conspiracy under wraps long enough, and were suddenly powerful to be fighting two major supernatural wars. The First Massasa War also was supposedly ended because the Order of Reason kicking off the Ascension War proper... but baring the fall of Mistridge (caused in part by a Tremere) that didn't actually come into play for almost a century where the Order just... stopped caring about the Tremere's betrayal.

          And then you have the Second Massasa War detailed in Blood Treachery that basically gutted the Order of Hermes, while Clan Tremere suffered no meaningful loses that they couldn't Embrace their way back to full strength in a few years.... despite incidents like the one you noted.

          There was a recent thread complaining about how vampires see werewolves as ultra-dangerous death machines, and the Garou mechanics don't exactly refute that, but in the VtM books it's an annoyingly common thing to see, "this vampire has killed a bunch of lupines," to demonstrate how powerful this NPC is, while the Garou almost never get shown being able to kill any vampires of note without it being a massive and catastrophic Pyrrhic victory for them.

          Until C20 came out, vampires generally had extremely high Banality ratings and many could kill a changeling without even realizing it by being in the same room as them. Wraiths consistently get the short end of the stick all over because everyone gets really potent necromancy powers in their rule sets, but Vampire has the most overtly hostile groups towards treating ghosts as beings to help instead of used as pawns.

          So... vampires keep getting teed up as major threats, even when it doesn't seem justified, and then they win or at least come out with a draw they quickly bounce back from, whenever this comes to a head in a crossover supplement. So the fans generally don't entirely like that and it bleeds into how discussions go about various topics.

          Comment


          • #6
            Vampires have a lot of advantages. They half bludgeoning damage, can buff physical stats with blood, and can grow they're numbers faster then a rabbit on Easter. That said, they're the "punching bags" because young vampires are nothing compared to literally everything else. Except wraith, they suck.

            In terms of power, vampires only get stronger with age. However, to werewolves who fight corrupting spirits and monsters who are naturally more powerful then the leeches, they tend to be more skin to a minor annoyance. It's like find cockroaches and ants in the kitchen, you're gunning for the roaches before the ants.

            Vampires can be dangerous in WoD, but mostly when the element of time is involved, or they're not afraid to waste blood. Even a new born vampire can buff up to 10 Dexterity out of fear, and wipe the floor with almost anyone. Granted this requires a ton of blood, and only lasts 3 turns before dropping to 6 for the scene, but you get the idea.

            Also, they can reproduce way too easily. If they wanted to, the world could all be vampires in about a week. Even wraiths can't guarantee a new wraith's creation.


            Comment


            • #7
              Early on they decided that vampires would be the "social" splat, which really doesn't make sense.

              Vampires are solitary predators who only reluctantly work with each other, generally hunt alone meaning they have no one but themselves to save them if attacked while hunting, and sleep during the day when social abilities are the most useful. They have the strongest in-story need to be formidable in single combat, since they are the most likely to need to settle matters solo, and to do so quickly before the sun rises and renders them helpless.

              Literally every other splat has a stronger claim to being social. Werewolves are pack-creatures who have access to an entire separate universe of allies, and who can use their social abilities in broad daylight. There is a much stronger justification for making werewolves weak in straight-combat because their social abilities more than compensate.

              But no, vampires are the "social" splat, and so must be a joke in straight combat.

              Comment


              • #8
                I don't think that's really what the early designers meant with the Big 3 and the arena breakdown. Vampires aren't the "social splat" in the sense of "they're the most powerful social characters," but in the sense of their primary narrative conflicts resolving around the social arena.

                Comment


                • #9
                  -revised screwed up the soaking rules for vampires. They would be much more martially competitive were you to use older rules (and I do)
                  -most vamps are solitary and aren't expecting or looking for third party trouble.
                  -Attackers have big advantage over defenders on both a tactical and strategic level. Attackers choose when and where to attack, defenders do not. Choosing your battles lets you pick easy victories and avoid even fights or hard.

                  If vampires seriously decided they need to work together to eliminate all the lupines and mages and they were incensed enough to bear a few losses, they could do so within a month. They outnumber both factions put together and can easily access overpowering assets like Dominate and the Blood bond. Wartime vampires are scary things. The issue is, Vampires are rarely in wartime; the Jyhad is a slow burn and nominal peace is the best option for most. Werewolves are always in wartime. Mages and Werewolves already have a lot of enemies. Vampires only really seriously consider eachother and humanity as a whole as an everyday threat.



                  Throw me/White wolf some money with Quietus: Drug Lord, Poison King
                  There's more coming soon. Pay what ya want.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Part of the problem is that the main strengths of Vampires, specifically Cainite ones is that those strengths are not table top friendly. The ability for vampires to Dominate/Presence/Blood Bond anyone, at any time has heavy invasion of the body snatchers kind of potential. Add on to this the fact that the fluff routinely refers to vampiric levels of wealth/money individually exceeding whole countries and corporations means whom ever they can't directly access with their powers, they can just buy the services or allegiance of.

                    Then the fact that they can replace their numbers in a matter of hours, rather than waiting for years/decades for a new shifter or mage to be born means vampires have the horde faction potential, if not for the masquerade thing.

                    All in all, this makes for great antagonist material. Endless resources and minions that the heroes have to wade through. But it kind of falls apart when it is the heroes who deal with everything by remote control. It isn't engaging for many players or even writers for that matter.

                    If modern vampires acted how they should, rather than how the fluff forces them to act, then each vampire would live in a converted missile silo, with a private live in herd, and only interacts with most of vampire society by online meetings. If a problem arises, then they hire a mercenary company to deal with it or if fire power isn't enough they hire/own a law firm.

                    For some reason "Vampire Lawyers" feels like a redundant statement.

                    Regardless vampires are the most vulnerable of the splats due to being not only damaged by sunlight, but forced into an unconscious state during daytime. Combine this with the potential for using money and minions to solve their problems, then of course they will get written up as the faction to pulp in all interactions.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Heavy Arms View Post
                      I don't think that's really what the early designers meant with the Big 3 and the arena breakdown. Vampires aren't the "social splat" in the sense of "they're the most powerful social characters," but in the sense of their primary narrative conflicts resolving around the social arena.
                      Yeah. The Kindred, especially the Camarilla, essentially live in a world akin to Mean Girls, Heathers, Jawbreaker, and Cruel Intentions. And that is on the good nights.


                      What is tolerance? It is the consequence of humanity. We are all formed of frailty and error; let us pardon reciprocally each other's folly. That is the first law of nature.
                      Voltaire, "Tolerance" (1764)

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        What? Vampires the laughing stock? Lol.

                        I personally hate the bloodsuckers because I am a Mage obviously... And no, it's not because of the "curse", or the "blood drinking" stuff, or the "unnatural undead"... Sure, Im not a fan of their disgusting physiology, but I would also want to rid Earth from all the werebeasts too for much the same reason.

                        But the reason why I (as a Mage) hate vampires above ALL else, is because vampires are DANGEROUS. I fear them. I dont fear Werewolves or other beasts.

                        Seriously, the most powerful faction/organization/conspiracy of the WoD is the Technocracy, hands down. Those are the top dogs.

                        But the most powerful INDIVIDUALS are, undoubtly, vampires. The only reason they dont mop the floor with everybody else is that each vampire is the worse enemy of all others. They are the most disunited of all, and if a pack of werewolves were to kill a small group of 6 vampires, there would be 20 others thanking the favor.

                        Vampires are the ONLY "race" of the WoD that I genuinely FEAR. Which is why finding a lone one, unprepared and undefended, is too good a chance to let it pass.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Thoth View Post
                          Part of the problem is that the main strengths of Vampires, specifically Cainite ones is that those strengths are not table top friendly. .
                          In practice, every gameline is about fancy parties, detective work, and asskicking. If you are playing vampire, the fancy parties are blood feasts or Elysium. If you are playing werewolf, the fancy party is usually either at a cairn, or a Silver Fang mansion. If you are playing Mage, the party can be at some truly insane locations. But they are a big part of every game. Detective work is pretty much the same in every game. There's a mystery, the players run around looking for clues. Asskicking is pretty much the same in every game, except vampires need the biggest amount of plot armor to survive it, since they spend so much time either hunting alone, or sleeping in utter helplessness. Somehow that werewolf never seems to attack when the coterie are separated hunting for food, or attacks during the day, or brings his own pack. No, he always solo jumps the coterie while they are all together. Very nice of him to act like a video game boss.

                          The main supposed advantage of vampires, being able to blood-bond and create ghouls and progeny, isn't really useful most of the time in situations younger vampires find themselves in. It's not relevant at fancy parties. It's not relevant during detective work. It's only occasionally relevant in combat, because you have one human with a parlor-trick watching your back. Compared to werewolves and mages, it's all nothing. Yet it's used as justification for making vampires the weakest race.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by CajunKhan View Post

                            In practice, every gameline is about fancy parties, detective work, and asskicking. If you are playing vampire, the fancy parties are blood feasts or Elysium. If you are playing werewolf, the fancy party is usually either at a cairn, or a Silver Fang mansion. If you are playing Mage, the party can be at some truly insane locations. But they are a big part of every game. Detective work is pretty much the same in every game. There's a mystery, the players run around looking for clues. Asskicking is pretty much the same in every game, except vampires need the biggest amount of plot armor to survive it, since they spend so much time either hunting alone, or sleeping in utter helplessness. Somehow that werewolf never seems to attack when the coterie are separated hunting for food, or attacks during the day, or brings his own pack. No, he always solo jumps the coterie while they are all together. Very nice of him to act like a video game boss.

                            The main supposed advantage of vampires, being able to blood-bond and create ghouls and progeny, isn't really useful most of the time in situations younger vampires find themselves in. It's not relevant at fancy parties. It's not relevant during detective work. It's only occasionally relevant in combat, because you have one human with a parlor-trick watching your back. Compared to werewolves and mages, it's all nothing. Yet it's used as justification for making vampires the weakest race.
                            Oddly enough, despite playing V:tM and the other WoD lines since the mid 90s, there were very few parties in the games I played in or STed for. Probably this had more to do with the tastes of the people I played with, but the social gathering aspect was rare. There was plenty of detective work, usually in the early game, and asskicking was required when you couldn't avoid combat.

                            I think the biggest difference was that many groups play a group of characters that show up in the storyline to move through it or figure it out. It's a passive way to play the game. You show up, you are presented with NPCs and situations to interact with and resolve problems.

                            The groups I usually played with were more goal oriented, which is to say they didn't care who had said what at the last meeting in Elysium and cared more about advancing their own plans. Survival and security were paramount, where as random social interaction was seen as an impediment.

                            As for combat, we usually played with smart NPC opponents, i.e. the werewolf would attack during the day or when the coterie was hungry and hunting, usually with a bunch of pack mates or kinfolk. Needless to say, this survival of the fittest style of game play meant that most standard story hooks don't work because no one in their right mind would take the security risk.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Ghouls with military backgrounds and a decent amount of silver > Garou
                              One on one, the Garou is a likely victor. Hell there's a few old monsters that can cut through a thousand ghouls in a row before they fall

                              However, a single vampire can replace as many ghouls as they want within 3 days. Garou replacements are measured in years. And those old monsters? Doomed to die of old age while their potential replacements are killed off.


                              Throw me/White wolf some money with Quietus: Drug Lord, Poison King
                              There's more coming soon. Pay what ya want.

                              Comment

                              Working...
                              X