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  • #46
    Originally posted by CajunKhan View Post
    Well I assume it's only supposed to be a paradise from a werewolf perspective. Mind you, even that's dubious because wolves are designed for dry forests in cool to cold climates. Do wolves even live in the Amazon? It seems rather hot and wet for creatures designed to thrive in dry, cool-to-cold climates.
    Brazil has 7 different biomes (depending on who you ask), it aint all just the Amazonic rainforest, and 95% of brazilians actually live as far away from the Amazon as California from Texas almost. One such biome is the "Mata Atlantica" (or "Atlantic Woods" in a very literal translation) which runs from north to south close to the sea in the east. In the middle you have the "Cerrado", yet another biome. In those areas we have a few representatives of the "Lobo Guará", which is the only species of wolves in South America, with very few numbers. This wolve however is VERY different from both the european or north american versions, and looks more like a big skinny fox than a proper wolf, but it is a "Canis" still, nothing to do with foxeses besides the weird looks. Beautiful beast by the way, I saw it in the zoo and it's a majestic animal.

    They dont live in the Amazon thou, they live in the Cerrado and Mata Atlantica, which are some hundreds to thousands of miles to the south and southeast of Amazon respectively (the Amazon occupies the Northern portions of Brazil and the South of Colombia and Venezuela mainly).

    So yeah... Werewolves in the Amazon makes no sense. They could MAYBE be here in Sao Paulo or Rio de Janeiro, who are cities that exist in the Mata Atlantica biome (no, we dont have forests in our cities, just small fragments of preserved zones, althought we eventually reach the Atlantic Forest if we travel some dozens of miles away from the cities), but Sao Paulo and Rio de Janeiro, our 2 biggest cities, are thousands of miles removed from the Amazon.

    By the way, the Amazon rainforest aint a single biome either, it's actually 6 different biomes. Sorry, Im an evolutionary biologist, so those subjects aways make my eyes shine. The Amazon up until the holocen was like the African Savanna, thus it was semi-arid. This means that it had 6 different florest in that region, seggregated by semi deserts. When the holocen began however, the region became super wet, so this 6 distinct forest grew and grew and grew... Until they connected.

    There are clear biological distinctions between those by the way, even if they arent visible by any geographical mark. There are plenty of species of plants and animals that DO NOT cross those invisible borders AT ALL. For this reason, there are some types of monkeys you'll only find in one place of the forest, several types of plants that only grow in one portion of it and on and on. It's a truly fascinating place - at least for a biologist lol

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    • #47
      Originally posted by Kakost View Post

      Hey, what's wrong with Mages?

      We are good guys, honestly!

      Now, I'll have to ask you to direct yourself to our "educational" room. It's just down the corridor, number 101, you cannot miss it. Im sure you'll change your mind and see things as they TRULY are.

      "It's a sin, IT'S A SIN".

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      • #48
        Originally posted by Kakost View Post
        For a brazilian such as myself, that sort of cartoonish depiction of what Amazonia is hilarious. But it doesnt bother me at all, pretty much the entire world that doesnt live in Amazonia have a distorted view of it - including most brazilians and other south americans that have a portion of their territories in the florest.

        To begin with, living in the florest aint an untouched paradise. It's a green hellhole. I always joke and say that if Brazil ever turned totalitarian, our gulags would be at the Amazon, where people would work to death breaking stones and, unlike Siberia, would be a hot and wet hell.
        The WoD also has old growth forests in Europe and secret packs of Japanese wolves. Rest assured, the entire world is bonkers so that it can be spooky and goffic. Time will tell if the 5th edition games change it.

        Also, wolves in south america are pretty much non existant. We have only the Lobo Guará (Guará Wolf). There should be a lot more Bastet here than Garou, since the population of Jaguars, althought small, is significantly bigger than the dwindling local species of wolves.
        Almost all of the Garou in the region are tourists, basically. That's why the Fera of the region told them to GTFO after they dislodged the particular corp that was looking to expand there, and they had to make good on it or risk getting into another fight against their allies of the moment. The Fera in question being mostly the werejaguars and werecaimans.

        rr... Mages MASS PRODUCE the magical mojo. That's why they have Hit Marks and Victors and Ciborgs and Golems. No, no splat outproduces Mages in terms of "magic industry".
        The thing about "industry" is that it can end up bricked from a fairly simple Gift. Like, an experienced Ragabash can stop a HIT Mark in its tracks with Jam Technology (disable the computer, it can no longer move) and then move in with Gremlins to finish the job (all electronics in the cyborg are now bricked and have to be replaced, which probably isn't good for the biological components attached to the life support functions). And that's before you get to all the problems with paradox that fetishes don't have.

        Also, Mages stablish "shared factories". They can each produce one part of the "mojo". You dont need every Mage to have Prime 4-5 or Spirit 4-5 for their "factories" (Im putting factories under quotations here, but sometimes it's actually literal). You can have one "mutant super being" being "modeled" by one Mage with Life 5, while another one toy with it using Entropy 4, yet another makes improvements using Mind 1-5 and a forth do it using Prime 5.

        No other splat can do that. And that's why despite being the less numerous splat they puch so above their weight, it's because they can simply take Joe Shmoe from the streets and turn him into a killing machine. No other splat have such a capacity to condense their supernatural mojo in an external source that way.
        Perhaps, but when it comes to one-shot objects, Garou and Fera only need a single, one-dot rite and some cooperation from spirits to make many talens. Such as the slagger, a cartoonish fire icon on a button that acts a lot like thermite when activated. It's great for industrial sabotage.
        Last edited by Saur Ops Specialist; 06-20-2022, 04:32 PM.

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        • #49
          As Kakost said, because of mass production and industry, no one has easier access to magical items than *Technocrats (not mages in general). So much so that it's not only narratively appropiate to have them in spades whenever seriously needed (as could be in Werewolf), but you even have a Background that can be used to ask for basically anything, from any kind of "personal weapon" imaginable to a starship armed with magical missiles and bombs, for no other reason than you having the carpet.

          You DO need to return it, or will loose the privilege. But, still, it's pretty insane, especially when that goes along with the usual Background for owning a Wonder, and the one to have one implanted, AND yet another one that allows you to "take" experimental/dangerous stuff, because NWO thinks of you as a test subject...it's as if Character Sheets were trying to tell us something

          However, it's not quite true that other splats can't "externalize" their powers efficiently. I would think this superiority of the Technocracy is not so much because of "inherent RAW potential" as it's because that's "what they do". It wasn't easy for them, but they went the mile and made it happen, so to speak. Much like how Nosferatu are good at intel not so much because they're the best vampire spies RAW, but because they have the best "clan culture" to make an information network happen, and have built the infraestructure to make it happen.

          This narrative element it's very important, and often overlook. It's not unimaginable that other splats could've done similar or even better in a different setting, maybe if they had different agendas or culture. But for X or Y, it never happened.
          Last edited by Aleph; 06-20-2022, 07:11 PM.

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          • #50
            Originally posted by Newb95 View Post
            Oh they most definitely do but don't think that the other splats are any better, werewolves in particular are in some ways even worse than vamps and let's not even get into mages, the only ones who could be considered somewhat better are probably changelings and I bet they do plenty of fucked up shit too.
            Changelings can be more fucked-up than others by far. A child-eating cannibal is perfectly valid as a concept for a starting character that faces almost no repercussion from either game rules or fae society, and kidnapping people for giggles is common practice. All that before even starting to consider their actions as emotional parasites.

            They can be really good if they want and help human society as a whole. But they have no requirement to do so.

            Originally posted by Kakost View Post
            Err... Mages MASS PRODUCE the magical mojo.
            Originally posted by Aleph View Post
            As Kakost said, because of mass production and industry, no one has easier access to magical items than *Technocrats (not mages in general).
            Standard rule for Wonder creation: you need a reasonable level of Prime, which also requires a reasonable Arete to begin with, and at least 1 Quint. With enough Spirit you can try to make a Fetish instead. Installations and organizations that help to improve output exist, but they're not the baseline. And to the point of mass production, only the Technocracy achieves that and even then is mass production in relative terms, not absolute ones.

            I'm not saying that this isn't good, but there's at least three splats capable of outperforming them:
            • Werewolves create Fetishes with a level 3 Rite, which means just buying 3 dots at an Ability and performing a ritual half an hour long. While there are some complications, a specialized Fetish creator easily outperforms the output of any Union factory in the Earth. What limits them is that such dedicated creators are rare, and Horizon factories can have enough Mages and juice to outpace them, but that's literally by putting more Splat members to do what the Garou have one person doing. Talens and low level Fetishes are more common and cheaper than Union's Equipment, although the Nation doesn't have the global logistics to deliver it from Caern to Caern in short notice, something the Union can do to make it seems like they have more;
            • Demons with the Lore of the Forge have an easier time than Mages. It is cheaper to acquire than the Spheres requirements, and generally faster and simpler. Level 1 is enough to permanently reduce the difficulty of using an item, like a weapon, with a touch, a roll and a WP point, and level 3 let you turn raw materials into the desired object with a thought, accelerating the process considerably, and that makes their output with level 4 (actual enchanted items) limited only by their Faith points in speed. So a single Fallen is potentially able to enter a shed with rusted steel tubes and come out half an hour later with half a dozen Dif 3 to hit Enchanted assault rifles;
            • Changelings are the single most productive splat. Chimerical Items are frequently more powerful than mundane counterparts and a Changeling has several ways to get one, including it often appearing spontaneously. In the Dreaming or in a Freehold basically anything they craft will be a Chimerical item no matter what, despite being worked upon through completely mundane skills and no special cost. A Freehold that operates as a factory or a factory located in the Dreaming will have standard output for a similar factory, but churning out chimerical items that, while technically not being their actual magical items (those are Treasures), can still have fantastic abilities all the same (life flaming swords). And if they want to make Treasures, there's simply no requirement at all beyond the Art to be imbued. It either takes exquisite and rare components and a mundane craft, or a suitable item to be imbued and some time making rolls and giving it a few Glamour points.

            While the Technocratic Union has the mass production of Wonders as one of their main assets and an excellent organization to make the best of it, in the end they don't outperform those splats without putting out a lot of effort, and even them the result is relative, as for those splats the items in question are even seen as relatively trivial in comparison to what a Wonder is in Mage (regardless of them all having the exact same cost in a starting character sheet: Background dots). What the Union really has as an advantage is a very good system to deliver items from place to place, so their already reasonable output is employed all over the place without issue and without useful items resting unused in shelves for decades at a time.

            Originally posted by Kakost View Post
            Also, wolves in south america are pretty much non existant. We have only the Lobo Guará (Guará Wolf). There should be a lot more Bastet here than Garou, since the population of Jaguars, althought small, is significantly bigger than the dwindling local species of wolves.
            While I do have my own reservations about the whole Amazon War in Werewolf, they're not that dumb.

            The Garou in the war are foreigners that got wind of a Pentex project in the area, and other than then the local Fera are species that do live in the rainforest.

            Originally posted by CajunKhan View Post
            Well I assume it's only supposed to be a paradise from a werewolf perspective. Mind you, even that's dubious because wolves are designed for dry forests in cool to cold climates. Do wolves even live in the Amazon? It seems rather hot and wet for creatures designed to thrive in dry, cool-to-cold climates.
            The Cerrado is savanna-like with mostly dry climate and fluctuating temperatures that resemble a temperate climate without freezing winters, so not as bad for wolf-ish animals.

            But even though we have more of them here, you'll hardly see a Lobo-Guará in the open because they're extremely reclusive and wary of humans.

            Originally posted by Kakost View Post
            but it is a "Canis" still, nothing to do with foxeses besides the weird looks.
            I'm not going to doubt if you hold this, but are you sure they're that close to wolves?

            AFAIK They're canini, but not in the Canis genus, so they would be as close as some foxes from the Canini clade (not usual Vulpini foxes, though).


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            • #51
              Originally posted by monteparnas View Post
              AFAIK They're canini, but not in the Canis genus, so they would be as close as some foxes from the Canini clade (not usual Vulpini foxes, though).
              Chrysocyon brachyurus

              Indeed they are not canis, I just looked it up. It's because the genus also begins with a C, so it gives C.brachyurus which I always assumed to be Canis.

              It's the only member of the genus, so that means it is neither a wolf nor a fox, althought looking like a weird mix of both.

              So there you have it, no wolves in south america at all. Thou werewolves and werefoxes are welcomed to try some weird kinky shit with those guys...

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              • #52
                Originally posted by monteparnas
                Standard rule for Wonder creation: you need a reasonable level of Prime, which also requires a reasonable Arete to begin with, and at least 1 Quint. With enough Spirit you can try to make a Fetish instead. Installations and organizations that help to improve output exist, but they're not the baseline. And to the point of mass production, only the Technocracy achieves that and even then is mass production in relative terms, not absolute ones.

                I'm not saying that this isn't good, but there's at least three splats capable of outperforming them
                I don't disagree in that they're cappable, I'm just saying that they just don't seem to do it. They have their reasons.

                Agreed that the Changelings *do* if you count Chimerical stuff as Wonders (BTW . I don't think you should count ALL Chimerical Socks as Wonders. I'm not even going to comment on turning Freeholds into Factories because I don't want to enter a debate about Banality on a thread that's about Vampires sucking :P - suffice to saythis isn't how Changelings opperate normaly.)

                But those notions you have about Wonders are somewhat off, and could be misleading when talking about the Technocracy. All that's presented as a problem there isn't for them, and some of it isn't for average mages either.

                1°. If we're going to count "buffed" items as Wonders. That doesn't require Prime, that's just casting a Matter (or appropiate) spell onto something or a bunch of somethings.No need for special instalations for that one, albeit, I guess having them would help. Rules may vary, and I'm not saying a Demon or Changeling have a harder time, they don't: but large scale production of such things a Traditionalist *can* do, too - albeit within hours instead of minutes.

                What trully keeps mages down on this end it's more the general concepts of Paradox, Paradigm, and how "changing the world should be hard", than the other rules of magick about buffing stuff. And even then, I'm being generous with your argument because...

                Depending on the Lore, and using that​ vague sense of "better than normal stuff" to define Wonder, that you're using (which, I think, it's wrong), the only reason everything humans use isn't a magick-fueled wonder it's because when a new introduced technology it's proven better than an old one, it becomming commonplace it's moving the goalpost :P If every big innovation (like, say, how "guns" used to be magick) it's magick, then there's a lot of it - perhaps even ALL of it (hey, I'm not the one that placed impersonal forces like "the Dreaming" as the production of one Splat).

                But, even being generous not counting Mage problematic Lore and weird outliers (like the "Technocratic" weapons and explosives of M20, wtf are those? I guess they could be Trinkets...that follow no magick rule and aren't regarded as magickal at all?) it's still, wrong to use those Wonder rules for something so trivial as making stuff sligthly better than normal. That's what the Trinket's rules are for (and, even then, that's for permanent buffs)

                2° Quintessence it's a limit. But, for the Technocracy, RAW, it's rather on the plentifull end. This due to the rules to obtain it being varied, some on the vage end of things, coupled with them not needing to hidde. So much so that we often have to think reasons for why would they need more of it, least them taking Nodes (while already having some of the biggest), sacrificing mundanes at their job, sucking the Quint from imprisioned mages, taking it from star-nodes in the Umbra, even...stops making sense. Why do they need that much of the thing?. Mass production of Artifacts it's a good reason to fuel such a hunger as they show in the Lore, so Mage players just assume it. And, even then, PU RAW adds so much juice to the equation that you need to reinterpret it's rules, playing with the word "Value" as meaning something less common than an economist would think, to justify the Technocracy ever needing the juice from other sources. Point being, whatever the amount you think they would need, they prob. have it, or could be interpreted as having it.

                3° You don't need a mage to opperate these Installations that make Devices, Devices that make Devices can be used by normal people. Heck, they can opperate themselves, even. You only need a Mage when the Device it's "original" (that is, when there's not such an installation). Prob. Mages are employed anyway to make sure everything runs smoothly, though. But, again, Mage Industry doesn't need such artesanal quality by pure RAW.

                What stops Technocracy from, one good week, making say 10 factories that make one Talisman every week or so, that allows to turn any propperly equipped place into a factory that ALSO makes Talisman factories that make factories , all of which it's manned by Conditioned normal people - or even none, because Devices can activate themselves - allowing one to increase output exponentially as much as needed prior to the final release. Dare I say, like vampires...But, wait, that it's insane, it would break the setting - Wonders, actual Wonders, aren't supposed to be so common even for the Techocracy...

                Well, on one hand one could say grab the friendly lore and think that Industrialization it's precisely this and just old 'dox ruins mage's life forcing them to crawl when they could soar. But there are other reasons: As said, it costs Quint, and I think that, ultimately, one should go to the point above and say that they have just enough Quintessence to have a lot of production, but not enough to make their artifacts reproduce like vampires :P . Plus making Zones takes time and maybe, something, something, of such an insane (but RAW friendly!) idea it's against the Foundations.

                Now, regardless of that, for the Technocracy this IS the baseline and has been for centuries. All of these dials need to be adjusted to make sense with the setting, but I think you're wrong at thinking the Basic Rules are what limits Mages in regards to production. It's more a relative interpretation about the rules that combines rules and Lore, and goes somewhat beyond the bassic to make a setting that makes some degree of sense. Usually, the main piece of this it's Paradox - coupled with the general conceits about aggregated action and what *should* happen. Also, limiting their undefined - but potentially massive -sources of Quint to a manageable set of assumptions...but this is artificial: Not all Mage STs think the limits work like that, especially in the Umbra and older times, I've seen the floating idea about such von-newman techno-nigthmares. And I don't think it's so much that these didn't got "Mage's RAW about Stuff", as that such interpretation it's problematic for the Mage setting itself...before adding vampres, and how insignificant they may seem, ever enters into the equation.

                And that's how we get into your interpretation of the situation. That, I think, It's a good one. Just it's wrong in trying to force splats into having "more dakka" because they "RAW can" w/o analizing why they *don't* or *didn't* - Say, why they don't dedicate more people as Fetish builders, if the spirits don't have any problem and they have the resources?, why they didn't built the means of delivery needed to take advantage of it when they have not one, but three Lores relating to movement - or moon bridges. Sometimes, it may even make sense.

                Like the Garou Nation having their own diplomatic take about how much they can entertain Spirits into objects at a given time. As you say, dedicated Fetish builders are rare, that's why Fetishes are rare. But, let's contemplate the possibility that they aren't rare because Garou are primitive and stupid: Maybe if you start to generate Fetishes at Technocratic scale, spirits would regard the Nation as The Scar 2.0
                Even Talens are so "cheap", because the spirits assume they're going to "be released" in one use, I wonder how much you can stash them before they start getting angsty. How many can you stash before someone starts asking for their subordinates. Since they're SOOOOOOOOOOO easy to make, maybe you don't need to have many duplicates, with having enough for one job - then make more - it's enough?
                Maybe dedicated Fetish builders aren't that common because there are enough Garou cappable of this to supply the "acceptable demand" (acceptable by the standards of the spirits), and they "dedicate" to build things well, and respectfully, instead of in big numbers?
                Last edited by Aleph; 06-21-2022, 04:53 PM.

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                • #53
                  Originally posted by Kakost View Post
                  So there you have it, no wolves in south america at all. Thou werewolves and werefoxes are welcomed to try some weird kinky shit with those guys...
                  "Foxes" cover even animals from reasonably distinct clades, so they're more similar to some foxes than some other foxes, because that's how vulgar names work.

                  But take a look later at the thread about the Ratkin species, where we ended up discussing the Garou at length. Given that they could take on Thylacines in Australia, the Manned Wolf is a piece of cake in comparison.

                  Originally posted by Aleph View Post
                  I don't disagree in that they're cappable, I'm just saying that they just don't seem to do it. They have their reasons.
                  That's true, but with caveats. And keeping in mind that my original response was to the notion that Mages are undoubtedly more prolific, period, instead of making it a possible interpretation. I was not the first one to consider Talens here, so indeed I'll accept for such purposes any permanently enhanced item (although the whole Lore of the Forge description was more for completeness sake). I'll consider a whole Voilë as one such Wonder-like, because it is possible for even the standard one to have extraordinary properties a Changeling can use with ease, although I accept that for all intents and purposes, if a Chimerical Item is exclusively limited to the properties of a mundane version, then it is mundane for our purposes. My main reason to include Chimera here, though, is that it is governed by the same trait as every other enchanted item, a 1-5 dots Background.

                  So, first of all, I'll state the reason why I won't work with a Von-Newman set-up: none is given in the setting as anything resembling standard source of special items. As far as we can tell, while possible it is factually not done (taking aside that some such factories may exist as a plot-hook, but they're either not contributing to the Union as a whole, are a ticking bomb almost out of time, or are now out of commission for any reason, they're plot devices, not setting features). For ease of discussion lets call the items just Dakka, despite in this thread it being originally used to refer to old fashioned ammo.

                  My observation of the setting is that the Union has a stable output, for sure, but A) most Constructs seem to rely extensively on locally sourced or leased equipment, in opposition to bought Equipment, B) most Union labs and production systems we see are able to produce in a steady pace, but not in an accelerated one, they don't churn hundreds of pieces per day, or even get something finalized every day, C) this production requires direct management by several Mages, as completely autonomous Device Creation Devices are not a standard, either accounting for only a few specific items or just a part of the production process, or even because Enlightened operators can adjust production, D) they put their Equipment at risk of destruction regularly, E) The production is rendered constant by this process, and a huge output would make it overwhelming in no time, F) Horizon Constructs seem to usually demand most of their production because of the nature of Horizon threats, so even without the Avatar Storm they don't count for most of the Equipment on Earth and G) the rules on leasing of Equipment assert several times that those resources are sufficiently scarce to make devolution a big deal if you're not using them.

                  None of those indications change that they have a steady, reasonable production that is effective enough to put Dakka on the hands of every Enlightened Agent and a number of Extraordinary Citizens, and we can easily say they're thhe Gold Standard of Dakka production. They're also absolute top dogs in resource management, but that still means that their actual ability to employ Dakka means less production and more effective allocation, that no one can compete with whatsoever.

                  Werewolves consider themselves the most important resource in their war, so while a Mage dedicated to production is a perfectly valid member of their group, a Werewolf isn't expected to do this until they grow old and weak. They also need spirits as raw materials, so that puts several limitations you already covered. On the other side, they have an easy and quick process, that is incredibly cheap if they plan for it, and they care with their Dakka means that most permanent items will last for a very long time, which also means they have a lot of accumulated Dakka in stock. Finally they have more numbers, so if both groups have similar "Dakka Per Member Density" (DPMD), then the Garou have more absolute numbers. Add to this that Caerns have Arsenals they lend temporarily to Sept members in mission. I'd say at the end of the day they likely have more total Dakka in their hands on Earth than the Union, while the total output will depend too much on the ST. They do have too much unused items, though, as safety and less reliable inter-Sept logistics means that many Dakka, maybe even the vast majority, are stored at any given time.

                  For Demons I'll set aside lost storage as we do not have enough information to know how many relics from the War are left and they only started to procure such Dakka recently. Given the possible proportions of the war, recovering lost arsenals may either make little difference or outright put the Fallen ahead of everyone else. This also means that we can only look at their current capacity for output, not so much accumulated stock. In their current situation, or best, their situation in the early 2000's, I completely agree that they're unlikely to outperform the Union except in personal output, that is, it is completely possible that a single Fallen Artisan can put forward more Dakka than any single Union member with every tool they have to increase their relative output. It won't be so reliable (although it can still be quite reliable), much less so steady, but it is perfectly doable. Their developments since then will make a huge difference, though, so there's little we can say for certain.

                  Changelings produce a Voilë just by undergoing the Crysalis, plus everyone on Earth that is capable of imagination, even really Banal people, produces a Chimera once in a while that a Changeling can use or simply materialize by Invoking the Wyrd. What mainly puts Changelings up front is the ease with which Dakka simply happens around them and they can use it. Most aren't really Dakka as they just do what a mundane counterpart does, but a significant number outperform mundane tools in fantastic ways. They can either get those things in the Dreaming or in the Autumn World. Moments of raw emotion and great significance also increase this natural output of Chimera. Finally, while others are always using very scarce resources to craft Dakka, Changeling artisans can do so with things that are readily available for them. Freeholds are arguably more numerous than any other Standard Place of Power in the WoD and are filled to the brim with Chimera, Chimerical items spontaneously appear here and there, everything they do with dream-stuff becomes a Chimerical Item, and Treasures aren't incredibly distant of the same situation, anyone can make one in a matter of hours out of any trinket bought in an antiquary if they don't want to make it from scratch with more uncommon Dream-Stuff, and hoards of them exist in the Dreaming (maybe spontaneously created, even). It is this tendency for Dream-Dakka to appear out of nowhere and the basic fact that Changelings basically live surrounded by those items that make me believe they're the actual winners in terms of sheer output, while not by merit of their artisans alone.


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                  • #54
                    Originally posted by monteparnas View Post
                    "Foxes" cover even animals from reasonably distinct clades, so they're more similar to some foxes than some other foxes, because that's how vulgar names work.

                    But take a look later at the thread about the Ratkin species, where we ended up discussing the Garou at length. Given that they could take on Thylacines in Australia, the Manned Wolf is a piece of cake in comparison.

                    The closest animal to them is a weird carnivor (but still canide) that looks more like mustelide than to anything canide at all, so I'd say they're very far away from any other members of the family.

                    They DO ressemble a fox do, but a mix of fox and wolf, but they are bigger than any other wolf while being skinny like a fox... It's very weird, and very unique. It absolutely astonished me when I saw it, it's unlike anything I've ever seen. I dont know if it could be "used" lets call it, by neither Garou or Kitsune

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                    • #55
                      Originally posted by Kakost View Post
                      The closest animal to them is a weird carnivor (but still canide) that looks more like mustelide than to anything canide at all, so I'd say they're very far away from any other members of the family.

                      They DO ressemble a fox do, but a mix of fox and wolf, but they are bigger than any other wolf while being skinny like a fox... It's very weird, and very unique. It absolutely astonished me when I saw it, it's unlike anything I've ever seen. I dont know if it could be "used" lets call it, by neither Garou or Kitsune
                      Again, the Garou could breed with the Thylacine, which is a true marsupial who only resembles a wolf due to convergent evolution, and even then not that much, but is ultimately more distant from wolves than any Placentalia mammal. So biologically they're only short of mating with a Platypus.


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                      • #56
                        Originally posted by monteparnas View Post
                        Again, the Garou could breed with the Thylacine, which is a true marsupial who only resembles a wolf due to convergent evolution, and even then not that much, but is ultimately more distant from wolves than any Placentalia mammal. So biologically they're only short of mating with a Platypus.
                        It's easy, just blame the Mokolé!
                        Those lizards are love to mess with genetics; they made a rite just to mate with the mamalians after their race want extinct, but before that, tinekred a bit with their evolution to evolve humanity.... not to mention the Kucha Ekundu, some Tallons made a pact with the mokolé to help them breed with the native African wild dogs and the Lycaon pictus is not really in the Cannis genus... basically made a whole new Changer-race
                        When such things on the table, reality and logic sobs in the corner in WoD and basically mating with a Platypus is possible

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                        • #57
                          It never really made sense to me that the Mokole of Australia would help make breeding with thylacines possible (though also completely unnecessary as dingoes have been on Australia for more than long enough to be the local Garou breeding population, also however the singing dogs of New Guinea can be mated with but dingoes can't), the Mokole of Africa would help the Garou mate with African wild dogs, but the Mokole of South America wouldn't do the same for the maned wolf.

                          But, as I've lamented many times in the past, WtA is wildly inconsistent about these things as some of the changers can only breed with a singe species, and others have hundreds if not thousands of potential animals to pick from.

                          Though... what does this have to do with vampires again?

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                          • #58
                            Originally posted by monteparnas View Post
                            Again, the Garou could breed with the Thylacine, which is a true marsupial who only resembles a wolf due to convergent evolution, and even then not that much, but is ultimately more distant from wolves than any Placentalia mammal. So biologically they're only short of mating with a Platypus.
                            That's a... Disturbing information... I never really delved THIS DEEP into the reproductive habits of the were-guys and... blergh!

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                            • #59
                              Originally posted by Heavy Arms View Post
                              It never really made sense to me that the Mokole of Australia would help make breeding with thylacines possible (though also completely unnecessary as dingoes have been on Australia for more than long enough to be the local Garou breeding population, also however the singing dogs of New Guinea can be mated with but dingoes can't), the Mokole of Africa would help the Garou mate with African wild dogs, but the Mokole of South America wouldn't do the same for the maned wolf.

                              But, as I've lamented many times in the past, WtA is wildly inconsistent about these things as some of the changers can only breed with a singe species, and others have hundreds if not thousands of potential animals to pick from.

                              Though... what does this have to do with vampires again?
                              Yeah, I always thought the "breeding stock" in Australia would be the dingoes - which is already weird enough.

                              Breeding with wolves and humans by itself is... Something already...

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                              • #60
                                In another topic thou, werewolves ARE part of the folklore in Brazil. My grandfather, who lived in the woods most of his childhood and adolescence, always said that the people in the village had once - not SAW one, no no no... They had CAPTURED a werewolf.

                                Real life story that one - not a living captured werewolf (I guess), but someone that believed in that.

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