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Diablerie & Possesion

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  • Diablerie & Possesion

    Hypothetical situation.
    Lasombra (elder) has neonate. He used dominate to take body and decided to drink the blood of the third vampire. According to the logic, the blood goes into the vessel (neonate). Right?
    But what if he wants to drink the soul? Can he do it? Where will the soul go? In the body of a neonate or an elder?

  • #2
    You can't possess vampires to my knowledge?
    But if you could (Elder discipline?) It'd probably go to the neonate.


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    • #3
      You can, just be closer to Cain. Moreover, in addition to Dominate (in the description of which this was mentioned somewhere), it seems that somewhere there were stories about the resurrection of vampires in other's bodies (hm... Tremere? Saulot? Tzimisce? I remember something about one occultist resurrected in body of neonate).
      There are also 2 combo disciplines (technically one, since the second one is killing us) - Eminence of Shade.

      Well... now I can blame neonates for diablerie.
      Last edited by Alphari; 06-21-2022, 12:12 PM.

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      • #4
        Unless the Eldar had or employed some sort of necromancy to faciliate a transfer of the spiritual energy/soul to themselves using the Neonate as a bridge, the neonate would absorb the soul (and thus the power) from the diablerie.

        which seems extremely convoluted since if the Elder wanted that power they could just do it themselves. I would imagine the effects would transfer either way to the aura, for example.

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        • #5
          Agreed, it would take a very specific sort of ritual or magic to make the power go to the Elder in this case. I prefer to avoid saying "soul" here, because no official source confirms it to be what's really being transferred.

          But either way, the vampire who drinks is the vampire who gets it, even if under some compulsion or possession.

          On the matter of "resurrection on another's body", that seems to be tied to the method used, which isn't clear in any of those cases. But if the possessor has effective ownership of the body at the end, it doesn't really changes anything. Tremere, as an example, was expelled from his body, so now that body is Saulot for all intents and purposes, he's not bringing this power to his "original body that was destroyed.


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          • #6
            Originally posted by monteparnas View Post
            I prefer to avoid saying "soul" here, because no official source confirms it to be what's really being transferred.
            But... this is written in more than one book. I'm even sure that there are signs that the soul was eaten - no ghost in underworld, non-working necromancy, second soul in vampire... Saulot in Tremere's body. Some black hand ritual can free soul...

            Originally posted by monteparnas View Post
            But either way, the vampire who drinks is the vampire who gets it, even if under some compulsion or possession.
            So... elders can kill clan enemy with the teeth of a caitiff. Sounds interesting.
            Last edited by Alphari; 06-22-2022, 07:15 AM.

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            • #7
              Originally posted by Alphari View Post
              But... this is written in more than one book. I'm even sure that there are signs that the soul was eaten - no ghost in underworld, non-working necromancy, second soul in vampire... Saulot in Tremere's body. Some black hand ritual can free soul....
              Oh, where's this ritual?

              Much of this is unreliable narration, non-canon Gehenna scenario talk, and Saulot/Tremere certainlty aren't your average vampires, or even antedeluvians for that matter.

              Perhaps the vampire eats souls, but does it store it until final death or merely process it before sending it onto the reincarnation cycle?


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              • #8
                Originally posted by MyWifeIsScary View Post
                Oh, where's this ritual?
                ...Saulot... certainlty aren't... antedeluvians
                Saulot is...

                Anyway... ritual - Father’s Freedom (Level 3). Inconnu, not Black Hand... but ritual work as i said.

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Alphari View Post
                  Saulot is...
                  .
                  He is an Antedulivan, but he's not "Your average antideluvian". Him and [Tzmisce] are a head above the likes of [Ventrue] and [Toreador] in terms of bullshit shenanigans.
                  You kill Capadocious and he goes dead.
                  You kill lasombra but it was a fake and you're too embarrassed to tell people about it
                  But if you kill Saulot and it was his cunning plan all along. You can't kill Tzmisce. You kill Tzmisce; you become Tzmisce.

                  It's also notable that Saulot's special discipline is all about the Soul so, as far as that's concerned, he has an advantage over the other antes.
                  Last edited by MyWifeIsScary; 06-22-2022, 07:46 AM.


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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Alphari View Post
                    But... this is written in more than one book. I'm even sure that there are signs that the soul was eaten - no ghost in underworld, non-working necromancy, second soul in vampire...​
                    ​Just as MyWifeIsScary said, the game has been very cautious on always keeping this strictly under unreliable narrators. Even the signs aren't reliable, because no one knows for sure how those things work either. Ghosts? Most people don't become ghosts, even vampires, and ghosts themselves talk about fates beyond the Underworld they cannot fathom. Necromancy can only grasp the corpse and the Underworld, not learn about what lies beyond. Second soul? How is the presence of this second soul determined? Memories and personality are proof of soul, or just a weird imprinting?

                    The ultimate fate of the dead and true nature of the soul are tightly held secrets of the setting. No one has answers for this backed with actual proof, they have signs that they may read in some way, but can too easily be explained otherwise.

                    Originally posted by Alphari View Post
                    Saulot in Tremere's body. Some black hand ritual can free soul...​
                    Saulot was the Antediluvian master of Obeah and Auspex and was diablerized on purpose. He didn't need to rely on Diablerie alone to possess and overcome Tremere and expel Tremere's soul, Obeah does shit like this even as soon as level 5.

                    Mithras overtook Monty Coven after being eaten, but the transformation wasn't complete on its own and Mithras was a 4th Gen master of Dominate. Imprinting his personality on his assailant could easily be assumed as a basic reflex for him at this point, and even then it was rather ineffective for a 4th Gen Methuselah against an 11th Gen Fledgling.

                    Father's Freedom isn't a proof of nothing but the ritual's ability to manifest whatever's the imprint of the deceased in the Diablerist. Can you say for sure that the "soul" is, indeed, a soul?

                    That's not to say that you can't assume the theory of it being the victim's soul as true for your game. It just isn't a canonical certainty.

                    Originally posted by Alphari View Post
                    So... elders can kill clan enemy with the teeth of a caitiff. Sounds interesting.
                    If you have the means to do it, yes. The benefit of Diablerie, if any, is for the Caitiff in this case, but the deed will be done.

                    You may decide that the Aura markings are shared, though, or any other effect that marks the possessor as the real killer.


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