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  • An old question for the experts about Saulot.

    I'm curious was it ever explained why Saulot decided to let himself be consumed by Tremere and have his clan almost driven to the point of exticinction?


    What in the name of Set is going on here?

  • #2
    1 - To take over his body;

    2 - No.


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    • #3
      - According to the Gehena scenario, to take over Tremere 's body so a part of him would be Tzimisce so he could ask the PC's to be devoured by Tzimisce and pray to God for forgiveness.... 🙄

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      • #4
        Originally posted by Microcuchon View Post
        - According to the Gehena scenario, to take over Tremere 's body so a part of him would be Tzimisce so he could ask the PC's to be devoured by Tzimisce and pray to God for forgiveness.... 🙄
        That's one Gehenna scenario. Other scenarios had other plans for him.

        But overall taking over Tremere's body is already a well established goal of him that finally succeeded by the turn of the millennium. And he paid a visit to Hunedoara Castle in disguise, where the PCs could interact directly with him, but no major purpose was given in the book.

        Everything else is in the air and no one has the fucking idea of what he ultimately thinks of the Salubri or intended for them at any point.


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        • #5
          In the Transylvania Chronicle for V: DA, documents purporting to be first-hand accounts from Saulot and one of his Salubri descendants cast a lot of his actions, from the birth of the Baali to the elevation of the Tremere to the status of his personal blood sorcery research institute under his hidden leadership from within its founder's body, as pieces of a complicated plan to become the Demon Emperor and then break the Wheel of Ages so that it stays stuck on the triumph of evil forever.

          There's no connective tissue between this and any of the scenarios offered in the Gehenna sourcebook at all.

          Possibilities include, but aren't limited to:

          •Saulot used to be pretty crazy, but he's better now
          •Saulot truly did manage to separate his Hun and his P'o into separate bodies
          •One or more of the texts are forgeries - but what Cainite besides Saulot would know so much about the Kuei-Jin legend of the Wheel of Ages, and why would they expect it to make any sense to the western Kindred who find it? And
          •Different writers with different visions for the character

          I strongly suspect that the fate of the Tremere Chantry in Vienna at the dawn of V5 was mostly about sweeping Saulot under the carpet so that the World of Darkness could be a simpler place.
          Last edited by Reasor; 07-17-2022, 02:32 AM.

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          • #6
            Originally posted by Reasor View Post
            In the Transylvania Chronicle for V: DA, documents purporting to be first-hand accounts from Saulot and one of his Salubri descendants cast a lot of his actions, from the birth of the Baali to the elevation of the Tremere to the status of his personal blood sorcery research institute under his hidden leadership from within its founder's body, as pieces of a complicated plan to become the Demon Emperor and then break the Wheel of Ages so that it stays stuck on the triumph of evil forever.

            There's no connective tissue between this and any of the scenarios offered in the Gehenna sourcebook at all.

            Possibilities include, but aren't limited to:

            •Saulot used to be pretty crazy, but he's better now
            •Saulot truly did manage to separate his Hun and his P'o into separate bodies
            •One or more of the texts are forgeries - but what Cainite besides Saulot would know so much about the Kuei-Jin legend of the Wheel of Ages, and why would they expect it to make any sense to the western Kindred who find it? And
            •Different writers with different visions for the character

            I strongly suspect that the fate of the Tremere Chantry in Vienna at the dawn of V5 was mostly about sweeping Saulot under the carpet so that the World of Darkness could be a simpler place.
            There are several other texts and hints about Saulot's actions in other books and they all share the same lack of coherence, don't worry. That's why no one knows, because the theories are wild, irreconcilable and without enough evidence to support them in the light of their contradictions.

            And while the authors of TC weren't really keen on this, the world has never been so completely insular, the Silk Road in particular was enough for there to be Chinese merchants living in Constantinople and other such things. So there may be a lot of reasons for such a text to exist that is not Saulot himself writing. And there's even the possibility of Saulot himself writing lies for whatever reason.

            Do not worry about the Tremere Chantry, either. Saulot wasn't there anyway, he hasn't been there for a long time when it was blown up.


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            • #7
              Originally posted by Microcuchon View Post
              - According to the Gehena scenario, to take over Tremere 's body so a part of him would be Tzimisce so he could ask the PC's to be devoured by Tzimisce and pray to God for forgiveness.... 🙄
              I remember that option from the Gehenna sourcebook.


              What in the name of Set is going on here?

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              • #8
                Strangely enough, even the Salubri can't agree on Saulot and his origin
                If we take the Clan Book as the Clan's version of events, there is a strange pehnomena
                The Warriors talks about how Samiel trained the Brujah and Gangrel and put the time of their origin in the tiem of Enoch (Cb-Sal p.15-16.)
                The Healers state "our Father, Saulot, was said to be a youth of the Secon City (Cb-Sal p.22)
                Now either there is two Saulot (like how the Toreadors have Arikel and Istar or Set and Sutekh may not be the same or how the Venture Antediluvan died in the First City, but built the Second and for a dead Antediluvian, he was remarkably fertile, embracing left and right, last time in 60 BC when he embraced Ueruic (Erik Eigermann) and Antonius ) wich would not really explain a lot or simply the Clan itself don't know the truth
                Then V20 hrown a curve ball,there, Goratrix already claimed during the Dark Ages that he was, in fact, Tremere, having been forced outside his body after he was possessed by Saulot and that the thing that the Clan served was an abomination. In this case, Saulot would have overtaken Tremere immediately and would be the force that sent Clan Tremere against the Salubri, joined the Camarilla, and would have defeated Tremere when he destroyed the Tremere antitribu.
                Beckett's Jyhad Diary introduced the idea of te Two Saulot, one the White Worm as his P'o/Beast and the Hun version that walks around
                In Beckett's Jyhad Diary the Wu Zao Tsang Kwong believed that the Master of Ravens was a servant of Zao-Lat and another of his agents to bring about his ascension.A theory proposed by Bethany of Ely is that the Master of Ravens is Saulot's attempt to follow Irad's example to purge himself of his inner darkness and embodies all that was vile and base within him.
                Would this explain.... anything? Hardly.

                My two cent is:

                Saulot was and his Clan had something of a reputation as mystics and healers before the third eye – this fact is not entirely unusal since medicine and religion have a long conjoined history, and tales from Babylon and the Bible recount prayers made and the occasional sacrifice to God to ensure a good outcome in affaires of physick
                • Set and Malkav had an argument, and they ask Saulot about the matter. He don’t know the answer, but swore to find it. He gave his sword to Set, and Set in return offered Saulot a staff of thornwood, and wished him safe journy. To Malkav, Saulot gave his crown, but Malkav had nothing to offer in return, so he bit into his finger and drew an eye upon Saulot’s brow and wished him safe journey. [CbR –M p.15]
                • Saulot travelled to the East (where he learnd under the feat of Grand Arhat Xue as Zao-lat. He become familiar with the Dharmas. Ha was banished from the Middle Kingdom, for stealing the knowledge of Xue, but creat the Wu Zao line. [Winds from tthe Eeast], on his way to home, Saulot found Ashur and the First Tribe. He had seen their rituals and wished to show them that their depravities and atrocites were as nothing, that they were childrens playing at evil. And lest none remain to learn his lesson, he tossed the bodies of his playthings into their own pit and let flow his own vitae into the well. (like a Devil-Tiger Dharma follower). After he left, three victim clawed their way out the organ pit as Cainites. [CB ba p15.].) When he returned, he come back with the third eye, and the power of Valeren [CB Sa 23] (The Kuei-Jin Chi'iu Muh/Dragon Tears Discipline gives you a third eye, and similar with the Valeren, so maybe this was the secret that Zao-lat stole from the Kuei-Jin)
                • Samiel created the Warrior line [Cb-Sa p.23]
                • Vaddartha banished Mekhetet and Set from the city [CbR - V p.13]
                • Nergal (one of the three Baali matuselah ) ruled Mashkan-shapir. Nergal was Arikel wench, trade secrets with Tzimisce and debated philosophicaly with Troile [Cb-Ba 18]
                • Approyimately two centuries after Haqim established the Judges the Baali started to appear. they got simpathizers witihin various vampire families. Saulot claimed his holy warriors were capable of piercing and culling such demonic sorcery, Haqim had little trus left for the cousin who had al but forced him into the position of law-keeper. Haqim left the city, and when he returned three years later, he had only three followers with him. The first publicly acknowledged blood magicans of the Second City [CbR- A p.11]
                • The Children of Haqim and the Salubri slowly scoured the Baali from the Second City. Within a century, the last known Baali sympathizer had been fed to the sacred purifying fires. [CbR – A p.11]
                • For nearly half a millenium the Second City enjoyed its golden age. Members of the Fourth and Fifth Generations began to leave durning this time, establishing their own domains. [CbR – A p.12]
                • And then a border city died. The battered survivors of Charizel returned to the Second City with news of the Baali. The reaction was largely disbelife and suspicion for the part of the Antediluvians. Quietly, Haqim and Saulot sheltered the mortal survivors an listened to and became convinced that the city had been a sacrifice, the centerpiece of a ritual. Haqim favored further investigation, Saulot demanded action. The mightiest Salubri warriors rode forth, bent on stamping out the infestation before it could spread [CbR – A p.12]
                Samiel and his coterie died at Chorazin
                • Haqim ’s brood prepared for battle in a village, but they were betrayed. The survivors gathered in a cave and prepared for the worst. Ur-Shulugi saved them in time [CbR – A p.12-14]
                • The Baali infested the Second City thrice more over the course of the conflict. By the time the threat was contained to Haqim and Saulot’s satisfaction, the land saround the city were barren and blackened from the Baali curses, flame and the marching feet of the armies. [CbR – A p.14]
                • Saulot traveled to East again, this time he come back with the concept of Golconda [Cb-Sa p.23]
                • More and more left the Second City. Haqim grew dishartened with his duty. Ha had accepted the responsibility of adminsitering justice to his peers and their descendants, but they seemed no longer willing to accept his preformance of the task that they had set for him. Some ignored him, some openly rejected him. Most gradually abandoned the hollow shell of the city to which he and his children had twice served as shileds and spears. With anger and bitternes in his heart, Haqim gathered his followers (fewer the 50 Children ) and left the Second City. They returned to Alamut. [CbR – A p. 15]
                • Saulot traveled to East again, to finish his studies [Cb - Sa p.23]
                • Veddartha left to find Caine and bring him back. [Lasombra] was the first to break ranks, seizing the opportunity to attack Veddartha’s children and claim the city as domain for himself. The other Antediluvians rose up as well, not content to sit by and watch [Lasombra] steal the City, Tzimisce plotted with [Lasombra] [CbR - V p.13]

                RIOTS
                • Troile attacked and Diablerized her Sire [Cb -B] or at least he tried, but Ilyes escaped to Lilith’s Garden in to the future [G:ToJ p.101]
                • Lucien drove his brother into torpor and salted the earth where he lay [CbR - V p.13]
                • Absimiliard and Set (returned to the city it seems) cut Arikel’s heart out and ate it [CbR - V p.13] (She survived it, since she awoke from torpor around 260 BC and advised Prince Alchias of Syracuse.)
                • Arikel convinced Troile to slay her sire too (it would expalin Troil’s 3rd Generation. She was 4th, and diablirized a 2nd) Legend has it however, that the First Born survived. Escaping into the desert, the First Born followed the setting sun as his sire. [Cb -T p.12)
                • In Petra Malkav was caught, and he was torn by talons, shlashed by bronze knives, torn by teeth. His blood poured out upon sand and stone, for whoever it was that caught him feared his blood and that which pulsed within his veins ad they were afraid to drink it. But they took the gobbets of his body and drowned them in rivers, hurled them into the ocean, buried them beneath stones. Of course, anyone literate in the tales of Egypt will tell you that you cannot truly kill a god in that manner. No. Malkav did not die. Hid blood pooled within the earth, and it surged with life. His children came to the rock where he was hacked apart and they lapped up his blood and carried it with them. And somehow he gestated inside them, all of them. His mind, broken and scattered took root in the mind of his children. His nerves, no longer made of tiny fragments of flesh, link those of his blodd on to the next. Malkav’s flesh was never touched by the light of the sun, and thus he can never be truly destroyed. [CbR - M p.17-18]
                • The Second City falls
                •The Shadowed One [Lasombra] —never truly content in the city his brethren built—returned to the darkness and to the sea. To the mediterran. [PGtHC p.33]
                •Cappadocius begun his journey and start to Embrace [Cb - C p.12]
                • Saulot returned from the East quiet and joyless, and sought refuge in a cave wherein he entered a long torpor. [CB - Sa p.24]

                My theory: Saulot studied enlightenment under Xue. That means that Golconda might be equivalent to one of the Dharmas. Certainly, Saulot exemplifies Devil Tiger behavior with the Baali. Despite misconceptions, the followers of this path are not demon-worshippers. Oh, they appear to be, to the unenlightened observer: Devil-Tiger temples crawl with atrocities. The outsiders miss the point, however: Devil-Tigers do not worship devils, they want to become devils. And that is a far greater purpose than servitude. To the Searing Wind (another name for the Devil-Tiger sect), pain is instructive and purifying. A devil, in the grand scheme of things, is the doctor with a cauter-knife and bone-saw. By cutting off the rotting limbs and burning out infections, a devil makes creation health. It is Heaven's wish that Devil-Tigers fulfill this task on Earth - both on others and upon themselves. These vampires epitomize sadomasochism; they enjoy tormenting other creatures mentally, emotionally and physically, but revel in the same treatment, too. Each tear is a new lesson, each cry a vision of truth. Just as a sudden flash of light leaves a deeper darkness, so the lash of pain creates a greater calm. Restraint comes from the fear of pain; hence, welcome pain and banish restraint. Agony should be savored for the insights that it brings - insights that turn to higher joys, if you understand their meaning. The Searing Wind tries to help other find those joys; paradoxically, it also seeks to destroy people who understand the truth too well. These devils are surgeons too, after all, and destined by Heaven to cauterize disease. Like the goddess Tien Mu, Devil-Tigers are the lightning that illuminates the wicked; like Le Kung, they are the thunderbolt, which strikes down sinners. The Sixth Age, so they say, will be the brightest strike, the flash that will burn a wicked creation to ashes.
                Not to mention, the formation of the Baali may have been, in some incomprehensible way, a service for good in the long run. Clanbook: Baali suggests the Baali's ultimate purpose is the setting of chthonic entities (called Children) with sacrifice. Without these sacrifices, the Children would awaken and devour creation. Thus, the Baali's seeming evil protects humanity from a worse fate. Saulot may have sired the Baali to serve this purpose.
                Saulot manipulated the Tremere in tandem with Kuapal - as the Stars Above and the Root of All (root of all was Kupala) as described in Hause Tremere
                With the Gift of prophecies an foresight (Auspex and Chi'iu Muh/Dragon Tears modified as Valeren) and spiritual Deffenses (again, Auspex, Fortitude and Chi'iu Muh/Dragon Tears modified as Valeren) he KNEW he would "survive" the Diablerie
                He wanted to prepare for the Turn of the Wheel, wanted to be a fit candidate for the title of the Demon Emperor of the Sixth Age... but the Seventh will come, he knew that, the Demon Emperor is destined to lose, so he made preparations in the form of the various bloodlines to be able to defeat him
                Saulot is one of the most prolific of all the Antediluvians, having formed the Wu-Zao, the Salubri, the Baali, the Nkulu Zao, the Tremere, and the Salubri antitribu. He may have been seeking something, and each line failed him in some fashion. Saulot may be most dissatisfied with the Salubri proper, and the antitribu may reflect his view on what his clan should really be like.
                The Wheel of Ages is the eternal cycle of being, in which the earth suffers through the eras of increasing misery, until the nadir of the cycle is reached and the world begins to right itself toward Paradise once more. The Wheel of Ages is a wheel with twelve segments, each of which is an era in world history. The First Age is a glorious utopian era, and the Sixth Age is Hell on Earth. As history progresses, the ages get shorter the closer to the Sixth Age we are, and longer the closer to the First Age. The Wheel continues perpetually. The Sixth Age is heralded by the arrival of the Demon Emperor who will rule the world in darkness and fear. In the first five Age, the August Personage of Jade (GOD) rules, in the Sixth, the Demon Emperor, and his downfall heralds the Seventh, when the August Personage in Jade retakes his Throne.
                Saulot want te world to be better so he as a Devil-Tiger wanted to become a gracious, honorable Devil, even maybe become a Yama King to replace the incompetenet "evil", and to ascend to the Throne.. just to be cast down, but all of this as the servant of Heaven and for the greater good!


                Anyhow this is just my two cent about Saulot

                TL;DR
                Saulot let himself to be eaten because he knew he would survive it (foresight) and by so he could fly under the radar and prepare for the Gehenna - lots of Elders, like Mokur followed his example, his plan was to survive the end of the word and not necesarrily rule in the future, but help to shape it.
                Last edited by Shadeprowler; 07-18-2022, 02:57 AM.

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Shadeprowler View Post

                  Saulot let himself to be eaten because he knew he would survive it (foresight) and by so he could fly under the radar and prepare for the Gehenna
                  This was the more popular theory among online fans and a number of freelancers twenty years ago IIRC.


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                  • #10
                    My purely home-brew answer:

                    Saulot let himself be devoured by Tremere because he saw Kupala escaping from Transylvania and proceeding to begin the Age of Eternal Night where the Earthbound would reign over the world as well as the damnation of all mankind. Realizing that the only way to stop this as well as the degeneration of Kindred to becoming pure monsters was to create a bulwark against the night in an organization that forced vampires to stay close to their humanity. The Salubri could not do this but the Tremere by defeating the Tzimisce, binding the Assamites from the Baali curse, and helping crush the Road of the Devil worshiping Anarchs could, he allowed himself to be sacrificed.

                    Notably, due to having achieved Golconda, Saulot's soul slipped out of his body and has basically been Obi-Wan-ing vampires ever since.

                    Kupala was actually possessing Tremere during this time and had planned to become an Antediluvian by devouring Saulot and spiting God in the process. Unfortunately, Saulot had left it behind as a trap using the first of Zelios' castles so that Tremere and company were soon forced into a terrible slumber that prevented Kupala from escaping through Tremere's body into physical life as well as ironically strengthening Tremere himself to be able to hold the demon prisoner. It isn't for close to a thousand years that Kupala finally forces Tremere out of their shared body and they at last achieve their goal of demonic transcendence (when the Transylvania Chronicles PCs release the rest of Kupala's spirit).

                    (And yes, I find immense humor in the fact the Camarilla is actually the best thing for keeping the Cainites from being as absolutely awful as they could be)
                    Last edited by CTPhipps; 07-18-2022, 05:25 AM.


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                    • #11
                      My personal theory:
                      Tremere diablerized Saulot.

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Microcuchon View Post
                        My personal theory:
                        Tremere diablerized Saulot.
                        Curiously that's the only one who actually goes against canon head-on.

                        Since, again, the only thing confirmed about Saulot is that he was taken on purpose and eventually overtook Tremere.


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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by monteparnas View Post
                          Curiously that's the only one who actually goes against canon head-on.

                          Since, again, the only thing confirmed about Saulot is that he was taken on purpose and eventually overtook Tremere.
                          I follow the canon previously established in Diablerie: Mexico, which despite being a manual that gave us a bunch of rules about Diablerie, didn't even suggest the possibility of the victim taking over the perpetrator.
                          Additionally, Saulot (and a few others)surviving and eventually "winning" Diablerie, goes, IMO, against the original premise of the game.
                          Anyway, my headcanon is that Antediluvians are not unbeatable monsters, but fallible humans. Saulot may have been tricked, or was tired of existence or too deep in Torpor to react. One way or another, he's gone for good and everything else is just rumour. I think my stories benefit from this

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                          • #14
                            The idea that Saulot survived his diablerie was definitely meant to be a surprise and an indication that he was special, observing the original rules even while serving as the exception before it (much later) became almost a norm for sufficiently powerful methusalehs.

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Microcuchon View Post
                              I follow the canon previously established in Diablerie: Mexico, which despite being a manual that gave us a bunch of rules about Diablerie, didn't even suggest the possibility of the victim taking over the perpetrator.
                              Additionally, Saulot (and a few others)surviving and eventually "winning" Diablerie, goes, IMO, against the original premise of the game.
                              Anyway, my headcanon is that Antediluvians are not unbeatable monsters, but fallible humans. Saulot may have been tricked, or was tired of existence or too deep in Torpor to react. One way or another, he's gone for good and everything else is just rumour. I think my stories benefit from this
                              First, let me be clear: I'm not saying your take is a bad idea or anything to this effect. I think it is perfectly valid and I have a similar one for many Antes. Yet:

                              1 - Awakening: Diablerie Mexico wasn't meant to be the definitive canon on Diablerie even when it was released. While I completely agree that people treating Diablerie as frequently resulting in the victim trying to overtake the attacker, much less succeeding, such a possibility was in the core book since always and was further discussed in DSotBH, that regardless of your opinion on it, is an actual rules supplement instead of just an adventure with rules for the prize at the end of the particular story;

                              2 - We're not talking a random Diablerie, we're talking a specific situation. Unique things happening at unique circumstances is a staple of fiction. This one instance being true has nothing whatsoever to do with Diablerie in general, or even with Antes in general, or with this Ante in another situation. It has to do with this specific event and any variables about it that can change the outcome of what apparently happened;

                              3 - Saulot, specifically, was a master of a Discipline that deals with the transfer of souls, plus Auspex. The feat being discussed isn't a complete fiat, it has basis on the powers we know he had. It is even theoretically possible with few tweaks in the powers that already exist for Obeah, Auspex, and maybe Dominate, without even going to 10th level shenanigans;

                              4 - More importantly, it is canon. Pointing at an earlier book and saying it wouldn't fly under those rules and the assumption that it was a normal Diablerie won't make it less canon. Not liking it won't make it less canon. Finding it stupid won't make it less canon. Saying it is a bad idea that makes the game worse won't make it less canon. Not even being right about all those claims wouldn't make it less canon. The only thing now that can make it less canon is the new owners of the IP retconning it in a book, and even then that'll be a retcon, not the canon never having been this before.

                              The whole point of asking and answering lore questions in a forum is to present discuss the canon, and you're welcome to state your opinion on it and what you would do instead. But saying your interpretation without stating that you know it isn't canon is misleading, and just ignoring the canon whatsoever instead of meaningfully acknowledging it to discuss is pointless.


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