Mieyerditch: What if the kindred did want to treat the kine like cattle?

[MyWifeIsScary]

In all likelihood if the Masquerade was ever truly broken I think the vampires would immediately take charge of the media narrative and control the situation: while there would be a few shakeups the status quo wouldn't change much and the average person, much less anyone with actual power, would do nothing to confront the bloodsuckers. Vampires would hide the extent of their wrongdoings and present themselves as a fearful and wrongly persecuted minority. For everyone with power, this is a status quo they want to keep. For the usual firebrands, they will remain quiet in the face of an actual threat. For the average person, it's not going to affect your day job and not worth sticking your neck out for. Most people tend to be more reasonable than given credit for.

That said.
What if someone was crazy enough to try open rule of mortals and large-scale containment? Maybe they've got delusions of grandeur, an axe to grind, or just got really bored over the centuries. Maybe there was a kindred-kine war that got ugly. Or maybe to combat the continuing rise of progressive and egalitarian thought which would create hellish conditions for vampires, vampires have resorted to draconian control to stop their extinction. There's a few good depictions in media like Mieyerditch in runescape, Carmilla's plan in the Castlevania series, I'm sure I've seen it somewhere else less well done. I think there are a few more fantastical post-apocalyptic fictions where vampires benefit IE the smoke blocks the sun all the time. But I'm unsure if turning much of the world to a wasteland would be good for vampires or not. I can think of why it might be useful for coercing the population to stay in their pens, but VTM vampires don't benefit from the creepy atmosphere so many other vampires do/food issues.




I think it'd be very doable. With Ghouling, Dominate, a clear hierarchy where collaborators benefit, modern and near-future technology (InB4 the real world's fully automated police state) plus a little bit of Vicissitude, necromancy and thaumaturgy could help. Without the concerns for the masquerade and greater populace control the ratio of vampires to people could probably increase by tens of folds. I'd assume vampires would leave behind humanity and switch to something like honourable accord. Vampires have huge numerical and logistical advantages over garou and mages so I'd also assume they'd win any war
Extra crazy: The Red Talons and other more extreme garou are actually happy with the arrangement. Humans controlled=less despoiled nature= Happy werewolves.


So I was curious, how do people think this process would happen? I had ideas for a character that wanted to push the idea. But I'm interested in what everyone else thinks. Leaders being what they are, I think they'd sell us into it: better a good position in hell than a bad one in heaven / Better bled than red.

[Hades]

If I were a vampire sect who wanted to openly rule, I would gain subtle control over the dominant country's politicians. Through them I would instigate continual wars to drain those countries' resources, stir up ethnic conflict within those nations through mass immigration, create an economic system whereby a cashless society would be happily accepted by the population, mass media is controlled by my sycophants, and anyone who attempts to fight me gets unpersoned, and their assets are frozen or confiscated. Have the media glorify being a vampire, make everyone want to be one, Hell, start a religion or three.

At that point, I would create political opposition movements based on just enough truth to sneak the large lies by, monitor them, and unperson anyone whose power level gets too high.

Any time vampires are criticized, they deflect and bring up the Inquisition, and how so many ancient vampires were killed.

Simple as.

[CajunKhan]

Vampires should really do this underground. There should have long since been underground cities full of vampires and humans raised from birth to worship them.

[Dogstar]

I'd be careful with this idea as it strays dangerously close to the sort of stuff that went on during WWII. Treating people like cattle is a short steep path to hell.

Also, in game terms, it's a rapid loss of humanity for all involved, which means that the beast soon takes over and then you've got a whole load of feral vampires ripe for the staking. Not a good plan.

[Thoth]

There are several aspects to this that hinge on certain tropes being used, but perhaps more importantly certain realities being ignored.

First is that Kindred have a natural control over how often they create more kindred, which means you can have very specific number ratios when it comes to how many kine-cattle each kindred needs to own. This is turn means that as long as you have isolation from the rest of the world, a vampire rancher is more or less self-sufficient.

Second is that since kindred are immortal, they can create really long-term plans, like keeping and breeding your own mortal society with no training or knowledge except what you give them. Furthermore, unlike slave groups from IRL history, a little Dominate ensures allows you to find out who is loyal and who is secretly gaining knowledge, no capoeira for your food supply. This means the cattle will have a completely different culture, different language, and values than the normal mortals. This also means that if the mortals can not break the system, then all the vampire has to do is suppress knowledge of a different way of life and wait for everyone to die from old age.

Third is that a vampire wants human blood, and unless you are a Ventrue or perhaps a Salubri, you don't need a fully functional human to get it. A small easily maintained group of lobotomized humans or mortals put into medically induced comas can take care of your needs. Yes they will die eventually from lack of movement, but they are replaceable.

There are many ways to have the mortals be cattle, but when you think about it, open rulership doesn't really give substantial benefits, just ego boosts. It is far better to have a sealed off underground city like in Seraph of the End, or disabled humans like in Daybreakers acting as blood farms.

If you must have an open rule system, then I would suggest invoking the mentality of Carl Schmitt and have the reveal of vampires be carefully staged. Have an artificial enemy attack humanity, then once humanity is on the brink, the Vampires come out of hiding and save the day.... or night in this case. Thus as humanities saviors, they form symbiotic communities.

Tzimisce flesh crafted monsters can be used to create the fake enemy, but given that they are just at best ghouls, means that mortal weaponry is going to be too functional against them. The few necromancer clans/bloodlines could probably do better mass summoning violent wraiths or just importing Specters to rampage around. Warding magic would by default make the vampire owned lands the only safe areas, thus automatic rulership. The key thing is that whatever you use as the artificial enemy, you need to make sure they can't communicate and reveal the con.

[Thoth]

I'd be careful with this idea as it strays dangerously close to the sort of stuff that went on during WWII. Treating people like cattle is a short steep path to hell.

Also, in game terms, it's a rapid loss of humanity for all involved, which means that the beast soon takes over and then you've got a whole load of feral vampires ripe for the staking. Not a good plan.

I find this amusing since humanity regularly treats certain classes of people like cattle, one could argue it is a very human thing to do.

But discussions on the human condition aside, on a mechanics level this would just mean that the Path of Humanity becomes less common amongst the kindred in that society. Sure the average Humanity based vampire will be running around with a rating of 5 or 6, but they won't be feral beasts either. Unless you are the type to suggest that treating cattle like cattle somehow equals sociopathy rather than just being a responsible and caring farmer.

[Shadeprowler]

I think they simply would kick back humanity in to the stone age and would keep them there this time
Vampires have 0 use of technology and as former humans usually terrified of the new things and change
Not to mention, when you have magic and powers? Technology is more of a nuisance
The only thing Humanity have is Technology beyond the vampires understanding (numerical advantage is nothing when Dominate, Presence or magic is at your fingertip) and most of the Sires embrace out of desperation to keep in touch with the modern times.
And they don't even have to be Elders, in the past two decades Technology advanced considerably and even Generation Z (not to mention Millenials or Generation X or the Silent Generation) have problems to embrace and understand what is the norm for Generation Alpha
And they totally could do it
While Technology advanced and Humanity as a Race became smarter, on the individual level, collectively beacame dumber and dependent of technology.
We have started building a more stupidity-inducing environment.Tech obsession might be to blame, but as the decline started in the 1970s, well before everyone spent their days staring at screens, that can't be the whole story. Other proposed explanations are unhealthy modern diets, increasingly trashy media, or a decline in the quality of schooling or the prevalence of reading.
We became so dependent of the technology, without it, we have serious problems. We are not learning anymore, we are just know where to look it up on the net.
Heck, nowdays it is common for children to not really know how what handwriting/cursive is and how to do it or read it, because they learned it on a tablet or computer...
The Mad Max-style post-apoclyptic world is just around the corner... and it would only took a few short year to go from today to there or deeper, back to the stone age
Take away the energy-grid and the world basically crumble, round up the (very very very) few who knows the secret of smithing and such, and let the Human nature take control eg. the herd menality kicks in; give them a (Blood)god/Protector/Tyrant to follow, devide the world in to domains, rulled by ancient monsters... and before you know it, they will forget modern world even existed within a decade!
(The Garou probably woud even help!)

[MyWifeIsScary]

Vampires should really do this underground. There should have long since been underground cities full of vampires and humans raised from birth to worship them.

I've thought about it. I think you could easily pull some vault-tech style shenanigans. For small scale experiments it will work well but I think you'd be very limited in scale and wouldn't have enough of a city to really have a full political hellscape with vampires working in tandem to keep things nightmarish. You might as well just have a commune. With today's depopulation there's plenty of ghost towns to take advantage of.

underground building is difficult even when you have the resources: it grabs attention. An island or something in the midst of nowhere would be easier for the one-city job. But, if we ever went -vampire overlords are the new norm- we're almost certainly going to build above ground. It's cheaper and easier. If you're afraid of the sun you can just mandate high walls, no windows and plenty of shelter over important streets. Lots of big indoor complexes too.

I'd be careful with this idea...

At no point did I think a character planning this would be heroic.

[MyWifeIsScary]

I think they simply would kick back humanity in to the stone age and would keep them there this time
Vampires have 0 use of technology and as former humans usually terrified of the new things and change
Not to mention, when you have magic and powers? Technology is more of a nuisance

Modern farming, construction techniques, sewerage, lights... Anything that allows for bigger cities is good for vampires. Designer drugs are probably fun too.

The only thing Humanity have is Technology beyond the vampires understanding (numerical advantage is nothing when Dominate, Presence or magic is at your fingertip) and most of the Sires embrace out of desperation to keep in touch with the modern times.

While I doubt vampires are embracing microchip engineers I really don't think modern tech is "beyond understanding" for a population who exhibit none of the mortal detriments of aging beyond 40.

And they don't even have to be Elders, in the past two decades Technology advanced considerably and even Generation Z (not to mention Millenials or Generation X or the Silent Generation) have problems to embrace and understand what is the norm for Generation Alpha

I don't understand why Baby Shark is so in vogue with the little ones and I've been resistant towards virtual reality, but I have my doubts that Gen A will be difficult.

We have started building a more stupidity-inducing environment.

what?

Tech obsession might be to blame, but as the decline started in the 1970s, well before everyone spent their days staring at screens, that can't be the whole story.

I blame Thatcher and Reagan. Oh, they're 80's. NVM.

Other proposed explanations are unhealthy modern diets, increasingly trashy media, or a decline in the quality of schooling or the prevalence of reading.

Diets? Maybe. Media? People forget what sucked 30 years ago to focus on the greats while hyper-focusing on what sucks today.. People remember Jaws but forget Jaws II and III. It's difficult to measure the rate of schooling but the trend is an upwards one. Kids read now more than they ever did before.

We became so dependent of the technology, without it, we have serious problems. We are not learning anymore, we are just know where to look it up on the net.

Over the past two weeks I gained expert knowledge on strength and hypertrophy training because it seemed interesting and there are several really well researched youtubers citing sources and providing easily digestible information. Before that I was going insane learning about snakes. (just don't go near them) If anything the current kids are statistically speaking some of the most well-educated kids there are and the next generation will surpass them. Meanwhile the grandparents of today are oh-so happy to believe in myths that were vigorously debunked decades ago. While I lament not having the skills of our hunter-gatherer ancestors, it's rare to find boomers so well-read or endowed with practical knowledge that eludes kids today, other than maybe car or home repair, since us youth often lack those things.

Heck, nowdays it is common for children to not really know how what handwriting/cursive is and how to do it or read it, because they learned it on a tablet or computer...

While we're at it. We should lament that nobody knows the art of tapestry anymore.

(The Garou probably woud even help!)

you're talking very Wyrmy here.



Long story short I think Vampires will of course use tech to keep the kids in the cages. It's just to convenient. Automatic locks, cameras, electricity, industry, spying on the populace through the way they use their mobile phones... it's too good of a tool not to use it. Now, limiting how tech is used in a cult? Decent idea. But vampires benefit from most human inovations as much as humans do. The only tech disadvantageous to vampires are weapons and thermals and perhaps the social change caused by automation. Some things have problems but they come with solutions, like how you can more easily get footage of masquerade breaches but on the otherhand people are used to trickery and special effects and it's easy to say something's fake. Everything else makes unlife better.

[monteparnas]

If someone went crazy enough to try world domination and you run it with reasonable psychological and social dynamics, they would just fail. Small scale the goal is doable, large scale it is doomed.

First, the notion that all vampires will just collectively go in line with this is stupid. They're still people, some will just reject such a plan on principle, many will reject it for various personal reasons, and any vampire agreeable to the idea is likely to sabotage you sooner or later for personal gain, or at least sabotage one another.

Large scale wars aren't the only concern, that's not how this works. While vampires may continually outpace their destruction, this is not about other supernaturals or mortals eliminating vampires altogether, it is about denying their plans. This goal has the disadvantage of depending too much on the rigidity of such society, with no leeway for failure. Real life dictatorships have far more power than their subjects and still need to keep a police state, deal with frequent leaks of undesirable news, and constantly "release pressure" through the people that simply get out. The logistics of such a world is more hellish than anything the vampires can do to the people.

Even a war against the Kine is a losing prospect. They're not just far more numerous, they are your food. How do you win a war against your food? If you keep them weak, they lose value, if they die they lose value, if they can't reproduce enough they lose value, everything they produce benefits you someway while making them miserable literally affects your food. Ever heard about scorched-earth strategy? The problem isn't their numbers alone, but how well mortals can resource to this.

Not to talk about technology. Supernaturals have a lot of advantage as long as they don't escalate things enough. What can a Methuselah do in a nuked city? I mean, besides starving into torpor of they survive. Modern technology greatly equalize things in a large scale, far more than it does in a personal scale. And again, wiping out your food isn't exactly a victory.

People are varied. As much as you can control them through fear, you can't really eliminate variation. Societies are built around control, but they always have some form of space for this variation and to deal with those who won't bend. The more rigid, the more resources you have to spend in managing this. Such a large scale domination would require massive resources and constant surveillance just to keep the status quo, if it is ever achieved to begin with, and too much to lose at any rebellion event.

[Thoth]

To be fair there is a difference between getting rid of technology and keeping it a mysterious art of the vampires. Castlevania, Vampire Hunter D, and Trinity Blood all messed around with the notion of Vampires being the hidden keepers of lost archeo-tech.

I could easily see the vampire lords living in technologically advanced fortresses, while the mortals live simplistic agrarian lives on the surface. The tricky part is do you create a privileged class of mortals who are more educated to handle thing beyond just having knowledgeable ghouls.

[MyWifeIsScary]

If someone went crazy enough to try world domination and you run it with reasonable psychological and social dynamics, they would just fail. Small scale the goal is doable, large scale it is doomed.

First, the notion that all vampires will just collectively go in line with this is stupid. They're still people, some will just reject such a plan on principle, many will reject it for various personal reasons, and any vampire agreeable to the idea is likely to sabotage you sooner or later for personal gain, or at least sabotage one another.

I don't know about that. Let's imagine a scenario where the world trends towards idealistic socialism, automation begins helping the people, the gap between rich and poor becomes positively swedish, corruption becomes harder to pull off because everyone finds prestige more important than extra money. Crime becomes the domain of crazy people since there's no financial incentive or societal presure to encourage it. The right-wing reactionary groups the vampires have been backing fall to the wayside.

This is hell conditions for vampires. Vampires thrive from huge gaps between rich and poor: the rich offer entertainment and shelter while the poor offer food and easy outlets. They like that they can just throw money around and have people do their bidding. They like that the system is arranged in their favour. It's the difference between a jungle and a desert. Some vampires might resist reactionary fascism, and they might make interesting characters in the story, but if it's fascism with you as a ruler or starving in the desert as your own life becomes measurably harder to maintain, vampires tend to be selfish enough to pick whatever's best for them at the expense of others, that's literally how they survive on a night-to-night basis after all.

[MyWifeIsScary]

One method to do it peaceably is move towards establishing a police state. Slowly crush civil liberties in the name of fighting terrorism. With drones and the like you can minimize how many police you actually need and simplify things. When the poor can do nothing, the rich are in your bed, the media is telling people what you want them to hear, and large numbers of people are in prisons without any hope of release, you can indulge in billionaire vampiric overlord fantasies (At least concerning the prisons. Most of the world might be "normal" enough for humane vampires)

[voidshaper]

Reading through this reminded me of Anno Dracula by Kim Newmann. It's victorian era, but same deal. Vlad kills Helsing and presses Victoria into marriage, subsequently turning the UK into a police state. Vampirism becomes a commodity, first for nobility but soon spreads into the lower society.
As for the bunker stuff, you can go straight to current day billionaire doomsday preppers.

[MrNatas]

I think it's important to define what does 'ruling openly' actually mean when it comes to something like this. I'm sure we all have an idea that it would be vampires as autocratic tyrants that would fill all major positions of government and humans would be nothing by cattle underneath an Empire of Blood. And while I do agree that humans would have a hard time, I don't think vampires would flood the governments mostly because I don't think they would care for the mundanity of day to day governmental proceedings.

To me, 'ruling openly' just means that vampires would use their money and power to get the laws and regulations they want pass and basically do whatever. I'm sure that some vampires would take positions of power (especially in a broken masquerade scenario) but, I think the vast majority would form blocs and super pacts to just fund their way into having all the power with none of the reasonability.