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Why people hate the tremere?

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  • Why people hate the tremere?

    In a previous thread about what canon thing people hate, clan tremere just keep poping up over and over.

    Why is that? I mean in theory they are awesome "Vampire mages". I have never got bore playing a tremere with tons of power to choose.

    However i started playing vampire with V20 so maybe im missing something from previous editions. So my question is Why players hate the tremere clan?


  • #2
    There are many, many reasons...

    Thaumaturgy can seem way over powered compared to other Disciplines. It can seem like the Tremere have access to dozens of Disciplines when other Clans only have 3. Additionally, for a long time (previous editions of the game) the Tremere seemed to barely have a Clan Weakness, it was a vaguely worded "one step toward being blood bound to the Council of Seven" and it barely ever came up in play, if it did it was easily ignored.

    Certain power gamers love the Tremere, both for the array of powers and an easily ignored Weakness. This made it difficult for people who enjoyed the Tremere for good reasons to not seem like power gamers themselves.

    This often came up in LARP games too, where you could get a posse of twinked out Tremere blasting away at anyone and everyone.

    -MMM


    Operations Manager - Onyx Path Publishing
    Owner/Editor - FlamesRising.com

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    • #3
      I started playing in '92 with 2nd Edition, and Tremere quickly became the go-to Clan for the more... action-oriented crowd. Their versatility and flexibility drew many players who were looking for more of a way to easily "win" the game, often the "trenchcoat-and-katanas, chucking fireballs at everyone" type.

      And that's fine! If a troupe wants to play that way, more power to them. But sometimes, you'd get a fireball-throwing Tremere in a political game, and, well, all they know how to do is toss that flame...

      That, and "Vampire Wizards" was always kind of jarring in the setting.

      Cheers!


      If you don't use an Oxford comma, I feel bad for you, son,
      'Cuz I got ninety-nine problems, but clarity ain't one.

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      • #4
        Also, there is a lot of spite generated by the history and metaplot behind them. The concept of "wizard vampires" is fine. But the execution of it can be really frustrating at times. The Tremere history and metaplot is like a ten deck house of cards in the middle of a hurricane that somehow doesn't fall over. It makes you feel like someone is cheating on their behalf. Or at least that's how some people feel about it. All the other Clans are generally getting screwed by things, but the Tremere always managed to come out at least as good as they started.

        Part of this is also the disconnect of the number of vampires that are supposed to exist and the supposed size of the Tremere infrastructure. As the only Clan with such a distinct structure and hierarchy, you can't really hand wave away a lack of numbers. If there's only five Ventrue in a city, or three Gangrel, or four Toreador... no big deal. But you need a large number of Tremere for their system to work.

        This makes them unpopular with STs simply on the grounds of how much work they imply you have to put in to have them in a given city.

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        • #5
          You know the moment I saw this thread's title all I could think of was a section of the Grumpy Celt's video review of V20, when he mentioned the Tremere.

          Grumpy: The Tremere who were imported from the other, earlier game of Tweet and Hagen which was Ars Magica. And in that game the Tremere were well... assholes and they were brought into Vampire: the Masquerade where they are assholes and they have in the new version of the game appeared in the latest version of Mage where they are assholes.

          Acererak: There is not a single timeline in all of space and history where the Tremere are not god-damned assholes.

          Joking aside the previous posts summed it up pretty well.


          Homo sapiens. What an inventive, invincible species. It's only a few million years since they crawled up out of the mud and learned to walk. Puny, defenceless bipeds. They've survived flood, famine and plague. They've survived cosmic wars and holocausts. And now, here they are, out among the stars, waiting to begin a new life. Ready to outsit eternity. They're indomitable. Indomitable.

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          • #6
            Honestly, from both a player and an ST perspective, I like the Tremere. I find their history to be evocative and interesting, and I've never had a problem with them in any of the games I run. That said, in the games I run, I treat Thaumaturgy as equally structured and ordered as the Tremere themselves. If you let the players run roughshod over Thaumaturgy and take whatever paths they want, yeah, it can be crazy overpowered.

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            • #7
              Funny that, in my experience at least, the Tremere have seemed like more trouble than they're worth for players who what 'kewl powerz' and min-max options. I mean, Thaumaturgy isn't a simple set of powers as written, at least not when compared to Protean or Dominate or Obfuscate. The Paths and Rituals DO allow for a mad level of variety, but it also requires bookkeeping and proper attention to details. Add on top of that the hierarchy of the Tremere Pyramid and the fact that no one in the Camarilla, Sabbat, Tal'mahe'Ra or any autarkis clans like the warlocks, and the Tremere become a difficult sell for any players I've known.

              As a Storyteller, I shove all the work of Thaumaturgy on to a player, but I don't give away free access to all of the books (a tyrannical stance that I know is not afforded every Storyteller). I'm willing to give hints and ideas, but I am NOT willing to let a player demand that her character know the Path of Whooping Arses just because it's in Blood Melee: Secrets of Being a Brute. Further, I choose to use the Tremere hierarchy to my advantage, leaving it as vague and unknowable as possible. Sure, the city's chantry is run the Regent, but who's to say that the same Kindred holds that post every night? No Tradition states that the warlocks must keep their holdings in the same building, that they must announce every change in title, that they are strictly beholden to the oh-so-quaint rules set forth by some prince or sheriff. Well, in practice, the Tremere kind of ARE held to strict rules, but when they 'get away with' something, it just sows more doubt into the minds of characters and players.

              Do I hate the Tremere? Oh you bet I do, but that's what makes them so very fun. Yeah, they had a very 'Aw, you know... things happened' sort of origin, especially in the Second Edition era, but eventually I came around to seeing them as having manufactured just about every aspect of the tale. The analogy to the house of cards in a gale is apt, I believe, when applied to the history of House and Clan Tremere, but one needs to look close to see the wires, wax, glue, and sheer force of will that keeps the cards from collapsing... not to mention ignoring when a hand reaches in and rebuilds any part that's fallen.

              I won't nay-say anything posted above, since it's all valid. I just don't have the same issues with the clan.


              B.I.G. Bird spreads the word: Anybody with a heart votes love

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              • #8
                IC: They were called the Usurpers for a reason; they came onto the scene and nobody thought of them as real Cainites, just mortal magi who had pulled off a neat trick. Of course, they did this by experimenting on the Tzimisce, and once they became vampires, they continued capturing and torturing Tzimisce, Gangrel, and Nosferatu, killing them or mutating them into Gargoyles, and warring with them for territory. They also diablerized Saulot and launched a pogrom on the Salubri, and then went on to curse the Assamites.

                Right out the gate, they piss off four clans and destroy another, all the while stealing land and wielding power nobody else has. That's terrifying, and its easy for fear to turn to hate.

                OOC: They're kind of elitist douches, and an unfortunate number of players carry that attitude even once play stops. Between the variety of powers afforded by Thaumaturgy and the ultra-forgiving Clan Weakness, the Tremere attract a fair amount of min-maxers. The Tremere have a heavy focus on gaining personal power (both arcane and political), so many end up serving an antagonistic role in chronicles where they see play. Some people are just unhappy to see "Vampire wizards" exist, though I personally don't see that as much sillier than "Vampire assassins" and "Vampire cultists."

                All in all, there's a lot of good reasons to hate the Tremere, both as a vampire and as a Vampire fan. Despite them all, I still adore the evil little buggers.


                Call me Regina or Lex.

                Female pronouns for me, please.

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                • #9
                  It’s interesting for me to read others views on the Tremere.
                  As the predominant storyteller of our group the Tremere have always taken very much a back seat in my chronicles.
                  I’ve never had anyone play them, and in all of my Camarilla centric stories this highly insular and mistrusted clan were hardly given any screen time.
                  The temptation is there for a storyteller to use the Tremere as a deus ex machina, with all of their flashy powers they could ride in and save the day. Luckily I have never resorted to this tactic.
                  The closest I have come was during a Sabbat raid where the Regent did intervene and save the PC’s from an especially nasty Tzimisce.

                  I’ve always found the Tremere’s history interesting and rife with story hooks.
                  I understand a lot of peoples’ views on their early nights.
                  With so many enemies, enemies who were Cainites long before they, its hard to understand how on earth they survived.
                  This discrepancy has never really been explained, other than they were well-entrenched, highly organised and had access to Gargoyles.

                  Recently I’ve hung up my storyteller hat and donned the guise of a Tremere character in a friend’s chronicle.
                  He couldn’t be further away from the fireball-throwing twink many hate.
                  He’s a security expert with high levels in Mental and Knowledges, four dots in the Path of Blood, and recently has acquired two dots in the Path of Technomancy.
                  His combat effectiveness leaves much to be desired and relies solely on his ghoul for protection.
                  If only he could dominate the battlefield with kewl powerz, as the story revolves around the systematic destruction of Clan Tremere by Tzimisce, Nosferatu and Gangrel hell-bent on righting old wrongs.
                  Right now he’s just running for his unlife.

                  Once again I suspect that the problem with the Tremere stems from how you see them and how you use them.
                  There will always be the possibility of super powered combat monsters laying waste to all of your favourite NPC’s, or the NPC Tremere who steals the show from your own characters.
                  But this isn’t solely a Tremere phenomena; Lasombra tentacles, Tzimisce fleshcrafting and Celerity-running, Potence-pumping, axe-wielding Brujah are just as numerous in our games.

                  Thematically I think Tremere are appropriate, because I’ve never seen them as “Vampire Wizards” but simply as “Blood Occultists”, which frankly fits Vampire fine.


                  Miley Cyrus is obviously a Nephandi and a Cultists love-child. *Shudders*

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                  • #10
                    Tremere seem to be a lot more accepted when you discourage players from having/using Lure of Flames I've noticed.

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                    • #11
                      I remember at my college there were a number of STs that were Tremere fanatics and used their powers to railroad players. You either got on the Tremere bandwagon or you were screwed. It didn't help that the munchkins were all over the clan. It generated a lot of hate from people including myself.

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Matt-M-McElroy View Post
                        There are many, many reasons...

                        Thaumaturgy can seem way over powered compared to other Disciplines. It can seem like the Tremere have access to dozens of Disciplines when other Clans only have 3. Additionally, for a long time (previous editions of the game) the Tremere seemed to barely have a Clan Weakness, it was a vaguely worded "one step toward being blood bound to the Council of Seven" and it barely ever came up in play, if it did it was easily ignored.

                        Certain power gamers love the Tremere, both for the array of powers and an easily ignored Weakness. This made it difficult for people who enjoyed the Tremere for good reasons to not seem like power gamers themselves.

                        This often came up in LARP games too, where you could get a posse of twinked out Tremere blasting away at anyone and everyone.

                        -MMM
                        I always tough the caitiff to be the more popular choice for a min-maxer PC, (start the game with celerity, potence and resilence) and their clan weakness is that everyone hates you and can/would try to kill you which is the same reaction most PC get in many vampire games i have heard of.

                        Or Kuldonic sorcery which could make you "win" the game (way of the spirit gives you omniscience in an area) because you become the default leader of the city more or less. I play one and the DM told me, "yeah you character could potentially just take the city because nobody could plot against you without you knowing or just destroy the Nosferatu spy network and replace it with your own"

                        But anyway, never though it was because of min-maxers. Thanks for the answers

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by AkatsukiLeader13 View Post
                          There is not a single timeline in all of space and history where the Tremere are not god-damned assholes.
                          I had to put down my drink when I read that. I might make that my signature. Damn that's funny...truth is always funny.

                          I love the Tremere, but they really are Clan Asshole. And that's great! In-game, at least... players (and STs) who just want to twink out because of cool powers suck.

                          If done right, playing a Tremere can be a rewarding exploration of the tension between incredible power (magic!) and horrible paranoia (the pyramid!). They experience the basic underlying conflict of being a vampire on a very specific level.

                          But run by the lowest common denominator...ugh. But that's the fault of shitty players, not so much the Clan as conceived. I will admit Thaumaturgy is pretty crazy, but if an ST is letting her Tremere player take every power in the book without providing any reasons, or suffering any consequences, she's kinda reaping what she sows.



                          Social justice vampire/freelancer | He/Him

                          VtR: Curses of Caine in Requiem 2ndTricks of the DamnedBtP: Secrets of VancouverCofD: The CabinActual Play: Vampire: The Requiem – Bloodlines
                          Podcast: The Breakup

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                          • #14
                            There's three highlights to the Tremere: they killed off those damn hippies in Clan Salubri, they almost wiped out those stuck-up Tzimisce freaks, and they created the greatest bloodline in VtM (the Gargoyles, for reference).



                            Call me Regina or Lex.

                            Female pronouns for me, please.

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Yossarian View Post
                              I had to put down my drink when I read that. I might make that my signature. Damn that's funny...truth is always funny.
                              Yeah Grumpy's review of V20 has some hilarious moments to it and highly recommend it if you haven't seen it. He's got some other OWoD and NWoD review videos as well that are really good. His Dirty Secrets of the Black Hand review is hilarious.


                              Homo sapiens. What an inventive, invincible species. It's only a few million years since they crawled up out of the mud and learned to walk. Puny, defenceless bipeds. They've survived flood, famine and plague. They've survived cosmic wars and holocausts. And now, here they are, out among the stars, waiting to begin a new life. Ready to outsit eternity. They're indomitable. Indomitable.

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