Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Why people hate the tremere?

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Originally posted by Illithid View Post
    It seems like you have a lot of significant issues with the system... and setting of V:TM.

    While I don't want to discount your experience or opinion on Thaumaturgy and Tremere specifically, you may be a bit more radically separate to the general thoughts on Vampire as it stands. This makes it difficult to compare our experiences, and arguments with you, because we have significantly different base levels of acceptance with the game as it stands.
    We may all be arguing from different starting points to yourself...
    We do seem to feel differently but I love VTM. The DA20 game will use all the clans minus Tremere and all the disciplines minus blood sorcery. The standard setting is great, it's just not the current setting for me. Going more trim this chronicle, it's always good to mix things up.

    Comment


    • Oh god, what topic did I just walk into? We went from asking why people don't like the wizard clan to what?

      Someone post a quick summary of what happened, please?

      Comment


      • Zanos Ah, I misunderstood your comment about Ventrue feeding.


        Air Benders obtained flight by achieving spiritual enlightenment and separating themselves from their attachments to the material world. Fire Benders obtained flight by applying physics to their fighting style.

        Which sounds more silly to you?


        And sure, massacring a herd might damage your humanity at first. But the lower humanity you have, the worse action you need to drop it lower. Eventually, a simple massacre won't be much of an issue. You'd have to do something like rape the corpses, or hang them by their entrails to stir the Beast from its slumber. And killing the herd without getting caught would be incredibly easy for a competent rival. You seem to forget that older vampires operate almost entirely through proxies. Once they've built up a power base, they retire from field work and start manipulating others to do it for them. Hell, you don't even need to use kindred and ghouls, just hire a bunch of mortal thugs and make it look like a random act of violence by mortal ruffians. A herd of mortals is far more 'squishy' than a pack of Ghouls, and thus easier to dispose of in a fire fight.


        And I'm surprised you didn't know about the Dracula thing. For as long as I've known about the tale, there's usually a scene in which Dracula's shadow moves about on its own when he's meeting with guests.
        Last edited by Nyrufa; 06-13-2018, 09:37 PM.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by stanlemon View Post
          That is an incredibly condescending and self righteous exclamation.
          Sure. But that's where this thread has gone because some people have decided the, "why do people hate the Tremere thread," should be the, "all the reasons to dislike the Tremere are dumb and people that hold them are bad role-players," thread instead.

          Using that logic I would hate all the clans.
          When discussing why you don't like the other Clans, do you default towards, "well, X Clan has broken thing Y," as a form of refuting your own displeasure with those Clans? Because if not, then you're not following my logic.

          Yes some justifications are well founded, others however are not as it seems clear that several of the problems are not and it is clear that they are simply being handled poorly either by the ST or Player, something that happens to other clans as well.
          Bullshit.

          The fact that sometimes STs and players screw things up doesn't undermine the justifications at all, because they justifications are about basic issues with the Tremere and who they're structured that can apply even when they're not being "poorly" handled.

          Depends on how you go about it.
          No, it doesn't.

          It isn't that hard to say 'no' to a player.
          Sure, but the Tremere vastly increase the amount of times I need to careful consider things and whether to say no or not compared to other Clans, which is the problem I'm highlighting: the Tremere as written cause more work that isn't fun.

          Saying aspects about them are hard is pretty relative as for example I find utilizing the Ventrue weakness in game and making it mean something more difficult than utilizing the Tremere weakness.
          I don't care about the continual whataboutism.

          The Venture Clan flaw is bad? Great, go start a thread about it, it isn't relevant to why people hate the Tremere.

          Additionally on the mention of 'fixes' as you like to call them, how many times do 'fixes' in general come up for people to talk about on these forums?
          Plenty. I participate in threads about that happily. But don't tell me that "fixing" is something we do to things that are fine and dandy with no reason to dislike as they currently are; which is what people are doing here.

          The reason I say they are being handled poorly is because after reading this thread it seems like they let any Path or Ritual be known which the book says not to do. So I find arguments from people who do that to have little merit because they are the ones causing their own problems.
          And... how many people have actually said this? Please, point out the posts where someone says, "I can't stand the Tremere as written, and I don't do anything to rein them in."

          As far as I can tell, this is just a strawman. Everyone knows how to say "no" to players. We just don't like a Discipline that creates the constant need to evaluate dozens of Paths and Rituals to consider this about. That might be a lesson learned via experience for some people where they might have run things too freely in the past... but as far as I can tell, everyone complaining about Thaumaturgy has already decided on ways they handle it in their games.

          Originally posted by Zanos View Post
          If you don't have a problem with Tremere players then you shouldn't need a 'fix'.
          Yes, I do (well, rather I did, because I can fix shit myself). Please go reread my posts on why.

          And if your problem is Tremere NPCs, well, you made them.
          Have you looked at the official NPCs that unlike the other core Camarilla Clans are supposed to have a direct hand in the tightly control politics of the Pyramid? Because I didn't make those. I also didn't create the NPCs that constructed the Pyramid in a fashion that's completely illogical with how VtM is generally written in terms of things like vampire populations and travel.

          I can fix all that, but then it's not the RAW Tremere, it's the Heavy Arms Kai* Tremere.

          Whataboutism gets a bad rap and is an unfairly used snarl word.
          It gets a bad rap, because its a bad thing. Don't use it. If you think something deserves to be compared to something else, find a different construct for it that isn't unsound.

          If indeed the Tremere discipline is overpowered enough to warrant a ban(I don't think it is), are other similarly powerful disciplines as well(I don't think they are)?
          And this is why. You're not honestly engaging with why people don't like Thaumaturgy and just saying that "overpowered" is a binary state where all problematic Disciplines are equal.

          Answering yes to one and not the other reveals that someone making an argument that Tremere being banned for having easier access to an OP discipline is internally inconsistent in the absence of further justification, and they are obfuscating the real reason for making the argument that Tremere should be removed or fixed.
          No they aren't. People have adequately shown why Thaumaturgy is a uniquely troublesome Discipline even if there are other problem ones too.

          If you're making an assertion that X->Y, but there are other times where NOT(X->Y), you have explaining to do.
          And this just distills that further. "I think this Discipline is broken," is now "X" without any examination of why and how. This is why whataboutism is bad. You toss nuance out the window to paint someone as a hypocrite.

          Even were that not the case, suggesting that something can be improved isn't the equivalent of saying that you hate it.
          Not actually what I said. There's two distinct sentences there with two distinct hyperbolic stipulations.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Vamps Like Us View Post
            See we agree.
            Well, we never disagreed on that point. I was disagreeing with the repeated ad hominem claims you were making about the people disagreeing with you.
            Originally posted by Zanos View Post
            Whataboutism gets a bad rap and is an unfairly used snarl word. If indeed the Tremere discipline is overpowered enough to warrant a ban(I don't think it is), are other similarly powerful disciplines as well(I don't think they are)? Answering yes to one and not the other reveals that someone making an argument that Tremere being banned for having easier access to an OP discipline is internally inconsistent in the absence of further justification, and they are obfuscating the real reason for making the argument that Tremere should be removed or fixed.

            If you're making an assertion that X->Y, but there are other times where NOT(X->Y), you have explaining to do.
            The problem is that the accusation of hypocrisy doesn't do anything to address the argument. If Thaumaturgy is broken, it is broken. Whether or not other disciplines are broken don't really change that. Being a hypocrite doesn't change that either. That's why it is a fallacy. You can make some valid accusations of hypocrisy, but it isn't relevant in this argument.
            Originally posted by Nyrufa View Post
            Zanos Nope, according to the rules of V20, a Ventrue can only gain sustenance from blood taken from their specific type of vessel which is chosen at character creation. It also says the choice is permanent,which means they can't alter it when food becomes scarce. The only exception to this rule is drinking blood from other vampires. Outside of that, they will vomit up any other form of blood that does not come from their preferred vessel.
            V20 Lore of the Clans page 259 has a section on topic in regards to changing it.
            Choosing a New Menu
            A Ventrue who simply cannot find any blood that fits within her feeding restriction can attempt to “retrain” her restriction, but it is dangerous and difficult. The easiest way is to go into torpor after a hunger frenzy and lack of blood. Once the Ventrue is reawakened, her first hunt will determine her new feeding restriction.
            Alternatively, the Ventrue can try to shortcut the process. First, she needs to have no blood in her body (zero blood points). The Ventrue must then go an entire night from waking until sleep without feeding, making Self-Control checks for hunger frenzy (V20, pp. 297-299) as necessary. If the Ventrue frenzies and attacks someone for blood, others can restrain her, but as soon as blood enters her mouth, the process has failed, even if the blood ingested gives her no sustenance. Once the Ventrue has gone an entire night without any blood whatsoever, she can spend a permanent Willpower dot. Her next hunt will then determine her new feeding restriction.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Nyrufa View Post
              Air Benders obtained flight by achieving spiritual enlightenment and separating themselves from their attachments to the material world. Fire Benders obtained flight by applying physics to their fighting style.

              Which sounds more silly to you?
              In a show that carries significant inspiration from Eastern religion? The former makes a lot more sense. I suppose it's another thing that's just not to my taste though, I felt that they were really loading a bunch of weird powers onto firebenders by the end of TLA.

              And sure, massacring a herd might damage your humanity at first. But the lower humanity you have, the worse action you need to drop it lower. Eventually, a simple massacre won't be much of an issue. You'd have to do something like rape the corpses, or hang them by their entrails to stir the Beast from its slumber. And killing the herd without getting caught would be incredibly easy for a competent rival. You seem to forget that older vampires operate almost entirely through proxies. Once they've built up a power base, they retire from field work and start manipulating others to do it for them. Hell, you don't even need to use kindred and ghouls, just hire a bunch of mortal thugs and make it look like a random act of violence by mortal ruffians. A herd of mortals is far more 'squishy' than a pack of Ghouls, and thus easier to dispose of in a fire fight.
              Low humanity is like humanity 1 or 2 if you're literally mudering dozens off people. At which point you're rolling 1 or 2 dice to resist frenzy, for everything during the day, and your torpor duration is measured in centuries.

              For the other stuff, though, you're speaking my language. That's all I wanted to point out; messing around with someone else's stuff to a drastic degree and getting away with it takes a bit of doing.

              And I'm surprised you didn't know about the Dracula thing. For as long as I've known about the tale, there's usually a scene in which Dracula's shadow moves about on its own when he's meeting with guests.
              I know about his shadow often behaving oddly betraying his supernatural nature, but I can't say I recall him beating someone to death with it.

              Originally posted by Heavy Arms View Post
              Sure. But that's where this thread has gone because some people have decided the, "why do people hate the Tremere thread," should be the, "all the reasons to dislike the Tremere are dumb and people that hold them are bad role-players," thread instead.
              Even if you consider the argument pointless or derailed, most people in here are at least maintaining an air of civility.

              Have you looked at the official NPCs that unlike the other core Camarilla Clans are supposed to have a direct hand in the tightly control politics of the Pyramid?
              I read them when I read the book many years ago, but haven't recently; I don't make a habit of using officially made NPCs because they're generally either awful or simply not to my tastes across the board.

              I also didn't create the NPCs that constructed the Pyramid in a fashion that's completely illogical with how VtM is generally written in terms of things like vampire populations and travel.
              Expand.

              No they aren't. People have adequately shown why Thaumaturgy is a uniquely troublesome Discipline even if there are other problem ones too.
              Nobody who entered this thread with the assumption that Thaumaturgy isn't OP has changed their view to that it is, and vice-versa. The only people who have been convinced by arguments either way are the people who already believed those things to be true.

              And this is why. You're not honestly engaging with why people don't like Thaumaturgy and just saying that "overpowered" is a binary state where all problematic Disciplines are equal.
              ...
              And this just distills that further. "I think this Discipline is broken," is now "X" without any examination of why and how. This is why whataboutism is bad. You toss nuance out the window to paint someone as a hypocrite.
              X isn't "This discipline is broken." X is "The power level of this discipline is high compared to others." Y is "This discipline should be less powerful."

              You can argue about whether or not it's worth the effort to change, or if the problem is big enough to be worth the rewrite, but if you maintain that both Thaumaturgy and Celerity have high levels of point-for-point power compared to other disciplines, and that disciplines that provide disproportional effects for their costs should be altered to have reduced effects or perhaps cost more, and simultaneously assert that Thaumaturgy needs adjustments and Celerity does not, the person who has made you into a hypocrite is not me.


              Not actually what I said. There's two distinct sentences there with two distinct hyperbolic stipulations.
              Let me respond to what you actually said then. You're saying that because people are suggesting possible fixes for issues with the issues people have with the Tremere, that the concerns about the Tremere are automatically valid, and that those concerns make the hate justified.. That is logically unsound, for similar reasons that I have already stated: simply because something can be improved does not make it inherently deserving of hate, and simply because someone has had a problem does not mean that their problem isn't their own fault.

              Originally posted by Monalfie View Post
              The problem is that the accusation of hypocrisy doesn't do anything to address the argument. If Thaumaturgy is broken, it is broken. Whether or not other disciplines are broken don't really change that. Being a hypocrite doesn't change that either. That's why it is a fallacy. You can make some valid accusations of hypocrisy, but it isn't relevant in this argument.
              I don't think I'm using the term broken, because I think broken inherently implies that something needs to be fixed. Rather, that something is relatively more powerful for it's cost. The issue is that if you argue that things that are too powerful for their cost are broken(and thus need fixing), and both those disciplines are too powerful and one needs fixing and the other doesn't...well, you see where I'm going, I think.

              You're right that it doesn't argue against "Thaumaturgy is OP." It does argue against "I don't like the Tremere because Thaumaturgy is OP." If your reason for hating the Tremere is that they are a clan with access to a discipline you consider overpowered, and other clans exist that also have access to disciplines you consider overpowered that you do like or at least don't hate, your own justification of hatred is unsound, and you should re-examine why you have that opinion. It's not a gotcha to accuse someone of secretly actually liking the Tremere, since opinions are opinions and all, but it calls into question their justification for that opinion.

              V20 Lore of the Clans page 259 has a section on topic in regards to changing it.
              I remember this existing, but I thought there were restrictions on it? It was only supposed to be used if the Ventrue's prey was simply gone or nearly impossible to maintain a supply of. Like if you go into torpor needing to feed on people with polio and you come out of Torpor and polio is 99.9% eradicated.

              Comment


              • The Troubles with Tremere

                The Discipline (Thaumaturgy) - Specifically the Paths which are like another discipline in a lot of cases. At reduced from In Clan costs.
                The Rituals - Especially in editions where they don't cost XP.
                The Weakness - Hard to portray unless you go out of the way to screw them.
                The Clan Structure - Requires a lot of thought and effort to portray and realistically should limit player agency. (More than any other clan I can think of)

                So A lot;
                I personally don't think that it's insurmountable, but as a player and a GM the clan's inclusion will mean a lot more effort to run the game.

                Solutions
                • Thaumaturgy - Get the player to understand and expect they will be shot down for their requests a lot. because they have potential access to a lot more stuff that can derail the chronicle; the Heirachy won't let them get whatever they want, a Chantry may only have a few paths handy, and the more individually powerful it is, the more likely that the Regent doesn't want any one else learning it. I'd suggest formally writing up what is available to start (Paths and Rituals that the Character can access) and let them put in a requisition request to get access to any of it, then beg an plead to know more about other paths and rituals. I don't like the idea of increasing it's specific cost, I don't think it fits with the general spirit of the game.
                • Rituals; as per Thaumaturgy - Limit their access to learn it. I Prefer the Dark ages version where you have to spend XP to learn anything other than your free ritual per level.
                • Weakness, I've never found a good work around honestly; but the 2 steps for 1 taste in V20 is nice. So is Dark ages Blood Thaumaturgy, where you still get blood bound through Taste of Blood and Theft of Vitae :P
                • Clan structure - Yet again; a lot more work to deal with it; have the character (or Player) formally request access to tomes, report to their superiors on their activity (including telling the ST what they are not advising their superiors) Demands from the Regent to learn certain paths or rituals (Like always learning Blood first) or certain activities outside the Chantry like spying on the rest of the coterie.
                One Big Personal Gripe - remove any powers that mimic another disciple (Excluding the Faux Path) no shadow walk because it mimics Obfuscate, no Mirror of Second Sight because it copies Auspex (Or they are similar enough)
                Last edited by Illithid; 06-13-2018, 11:26 PM. Reason: Completing post

                Comment


                • Heavy Arms I had a whole rebuttal to your post typed out but frankly I'm too burned out arguing this thread. So instead I have a question for you. What things do you like about the Tremere? What can you defend about them and Thaumaturgy? I can list off several things about them I have issue with and would be happy to list them both mechanically and lore.

                  Here is a short list
                  -They shouldn't have survived the Dark Ages having made enemies of the 4 Clans (counting Salubri) and the Order of Hermes
                  -I think Rituals shouldn't be free
                  -As I've said twice now I think, Path of Blood is horribly broken
                  -I like their current weakness but it did take way too long for them to get it
                  -They have been portrayed constantly as the absolute most powerful clan in a lot of the fluff
                  -Them being the only major group that has Blood Sorcery (though as has been said before in this thread, this is becoming less and less the case)

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Zanos View Post

                    I remember this existing, but I thought there were restrictions on it? It was only supposed to be used if the Ventrue's prey was simply gone or nearly impossible to maintain a supply of. Like if you go into torpor needing to feed on people with polio and you come out of Torpor and polio is 99.9% eradicated.
                    That's how it used to be but V20 loosened the restrictions

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Zanos View Post

                      I don't think I'm using the term broken, because I think broken inherently implies that something needs to be fixed. Rather, that something is relatively more powerful for it's cost. The issue is that if you argue that things that are too powerful for their cost are broken(and thus need fixing), and both those disciplines are too powerful and one needs fixing and the other doesn't...well, you see where I'm going, I think.
                      The point isn't really how you are using broken, but the other posters. Vamps Like Us said he thinks it is broken. Stanlemon agreed with the term broken, just that it is far from the only broken one. And implying Vamps Like Us was possibly a hypocrite in how he treated Thaumaturgy compared to those other broken disciplines.

                      So again, it is Whataboutism, a fallacious appeal to hypocrisy. Whether or not Vamps Like Us treats the situation hypocritically doesn't change the underlying premise he's making about how prohibitively broken Thaumaturgy is. He very well might be a hypocrite, that's irrelevant.

                      You're right that it doesn't argue against "Thaumaturgy is OP." It does argue against "I don't like the Tremere because Thaumaturgy is OP." If your reason for hating the Tremere is that they are a clan with access to a discipline you consider overpowered, and other clans exist that also have access to disciplines you consider overpowered that you do like or at least don't hate, your own justification of hatred is unsound, and you should re-examine why you have that opinion. It's not a gotcha to accuse someone of secretly actually liking the Tremere, since opinions are opinions and all, but it calls into question their justification for that opinion.
                      It certainly is trying to make Thaumaturgy seem less problematic by juxtaposing it with how other supposedly broken disciplines are treated with implied hypocrisy. That's kind of the point of whataboutism. 'We seem less bad by pointing out how bad these other things are.'
                      That said, Vamps Like Us gave a pretty consistent response by saying they deal with various broken disciplines in various ways.

                      I remember this existing, but I thought there were restrictions on it? It was only supposed to be used if the Ventrue's prey was simply gone or nearly impossible to maintain a supply of. Like if you go into torpor needing to feed on people with polio and you come out of Torpor and polio is 99.9% eradicated.
                      I quoted the sidebar in the entirety. Arguably the first part implies it is done when they can't find blood to satisfy the restriction, but it isn't really required per the language.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Monalfie View Post
                        It certainly is trying to make Thaumaturgy seem less problematic by juxtaposing it with how other supposedly broken disciplines are treated with implied hypocrisy. That's kind of the point of whataboutism. 'We seem less bad by pointing out how bad these other things are.'
                        That said, Vamps Like Us gave a pretty consistent response by saying they deal with various broken disciplines in various ways.
                        I'm not saying anything about whether Thaumaturgy is or isn't broken by comparing it to views of other disciplines. I am saying that it's not a valid reason to hate the Tremere if your opinion of keepers over various other "broken" disciplines isn't consistent.

                        I quoted the sidebar in the entirety. Arguably the first part implies it is done when they can't find blood to satisfy the restriction, but it isn't really required per the language.
                        Might have been remembering from Revised.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Zanos View Post
                          ​Even if you consider the argument pointless or derailed, most people in here are at least maintaining an air of civility.
                          And some people aren't? Also, the "air" of civility isn't something I care much about, when you're just maintaining the air of civility, you're not actually being civil. You're being polite enough that your uncivil behavior goes under the radar. "Putting on airs" means you're faking it as an idiom. I'd rather not do that song and dance.

                          I read them when I read the book many years ago, but haven't recently; I don't make a habit of using officially made NPCs because they're generally either awful or simply not to my tastes across the board.
                          Yep. But that's the problem. The Tremere are the most tightly knit Clan. Most vampires never answer to any members of their Clan outside those in their local city. Every acolyte and apprentice answers to their Regent (a huge number of these have been included in the books). Their Regent answers to a Lord. The Lords answer to a Pontifex. Each of the 49 Pontifices answers directly to one of the Inner Council of Seven (all of these are detailed).

                          So each Councilor politicking for their power in the Inner Circle, does so by handing orders out to their Pontifices, who use the Regents to get things done via their Chantry resources (aka the Tremere players). So if you don't know who the Councilor that's ultimately above you is, you don't know how they run their Pontifices, which means you don't know how the Regents get treated, and what tensions there are between Regents. Oh and any additional politics that arise if Magisters get involved (since they're technically lower ranked than Regents, but have greater freedom).

                          Expand.
                          Mostly see above. The structure of the Pyramid (and that's all Tremere vampires, not the ghouls, and servitors like Gargoyles) is huge.

                          So, consider this Chantry:

                          There's 4 acolytes, because they're still young and not actually in the Pyramid yet, there doesn't have to be a lot of them. Seven apprentices (including the PC) so each level is represented to politic over. There's only two Magisters that set up shop since it's not a huge Chantry supposedly, but there's also three Gargoyles keeping the place safe to make up for not having that many potent Tremere despite the resources, and then there's the Regent.

                          That's 16 NPCs that are locals to the city for just one clan. That would be all the vampires in most cities.

                          Then there's the Lord, Pontifex, and Councilor to consider.

                          So 19 NPCs and we have a minimally functional Chantry to have enough resources to even bother having one, and enough people to maintain the Pyramid's politics to play in.

                          And while 49 Pontifices sounds like only a few, the Clan is either insanely huge, or there's around 500 vampires beneath each... but they're supposed to be some sort of reclusive figure you never interact with until you're a Regent, Lord, or Magister.

                          X isn't "This discipline is broken." X is "The power level of this discipline is high compared to others." Y is "This discipline should be less powerful."
                          It doesn't really change anything. How a Disciplines needs to get nerfed matters. Making Thaumaturgy less powerful is a very different effort from making Celerity less powerful (if you agree both should be). Thaumaturgy needs to be addressed on the nature of Path and Ritual bloat, while Celerity needs to be addressed in how it acts as a force multiplier on the already potent-in-system Dexterity. It you reduce Dexterity and multiple actions effectiveness, you reduce the potency of Celerity without even changing the Discipline. You can't do that with Thaumaturgy because it's problems are internal to itself, not how it leverages an existing imbalance in the system.

                          ,,,but if you maintain that both Thaumaturgy and Celerity have high levels of point-for-point power compared to other disciplines, and that disciplines that provide disproportional effects for their costs should be altered to have reduced effects or perhaps cost more, and simultaneously assert that Thaumaturgy needs adjustments and Celerity does not, the person who has made you into a hypocrite is not me.
                          See, nobody is "maintaining this," we're just maintaining that Celerity power level is irrelevant to whether or not Thaumaturgy is a justified reason to dislike the Tremere as written.

                          You're trying to make people hypocrites based on a falsehood about their positions.

                          You're saying that because people are suggesting possible fixes for issues with the issues people have with the Tremere, that the concerns about the Tremere are automatically valid, and that those concerns make the hate justified.
                          This isn't a really honest representation, but close enough. The big issue is that I never said "automatically" and the point is that proposing fixes is acknowledging the flaws. Also, again, you're joining two things I explicitly didn't.

                          That is logically unsound,...
                          No, it's just not written in formal logical proof format.

                          ....for similar reasons that I have already stated: simply because something can be improved does not make it inherently deserving of hate, and simply because someone has had a problem does not mean that their problem isn't their own fault.
                          None of this is a logical refutation of what I said. All you're saying is, "but you could still be wrong!" without ever showing how I am wrong.... which is a logically unsound argument.

                          And why are why back to needing to blame this on people? Why is it so damned important to demand a conversation where everything comes down to the weakass strawman of "bad players ruin it since it's clearly perfectly fine without them."

                          It does argue against "I don't like the Tremere because Thaumaturgy is OP."
                          No it doesn't for any number of reasons (how it's OP, level of access, the number of areas of play the OP nature of the Discipline can impact, etc). Again, two things being OP doesn't mean they're OP in the same way, with the same level of impact on the game, and the same need to fix to make something go from "hate" to "tolerable" to "fun."

                          It's not a gotcha to accuse someone of secretly actually liking the Tremere, since opinions are opinions and all, but it calls into question their justification for that opinion.
                          It's still a gotcha that doesn't call justifications into question, because it doesn't care about the justification, just manufacturing a strawman justification to attack and then point and say, "Ha! Tremere haters are dumb hypocrites!"

                          Originally posted by Illithid View Post
                          The Troubles with Tremere

                          The Discipline (Thaumaturgy) - Specifically the Paths which are like another discipline in a lot of cases. At reduced from In Clan costs.
                          The Rituals - Especially in editions where they don't cost XP.
                          The Weakness - Hard to portray unless you go out of the way to screw them.
                          The Clan Structure - Requires a lot of thought and effort to portray and realistically should limit player agency. (More than any other clan I can think of)
                          Additional:

                          The backstory, NPCs, and metaplot that make it hard to use the Tremere as written without contradicting setting material, and the suspension of disbelief straining miracles that got in instead of something more functional.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by stanlemon View Post
                            So instead I have a question for you. What things do you like about the Tremere? What can you defend about them and Thaumaturgy?
                            The best thing about the Tremere is that they're a honest to goodness mystery cult that doesn't try to pretend to be something more than what it is (unlike say, the Setities). They're - especially in the context of the original seven Cam Clans before the game grew too much - awesome for occult investigator vampires (Auspex and Dominate ftw there).

                            As I've said before, I actually like Rituals... it's the Path's I don't like. An all ritual magic system for the Tremere gives them purpose, dangerous powers other vampires don't want to mess with, but is naturally troublesome to apply in play as more than a bluff because you never know what Rituals a Tremere has prepped, and a Tremere never really knows if they prepped the right Rituals for their situation. It supports the good part of them being occult mystery cultists/investigators extremely well.

                            Comment


                            • In my opinion, the way to really fix the Tremere would be to completely rewrite their backstory and current social standing. Have them blunder through the early days by the skin of their fangs, making a lot of enemies, but not to the point of wanting them exterminated. Have them attempt to court the Ventrue against the Tzimisce only to have had the Ventrue playing both sides against each other.

                              When the Camarilla came about, like the Setites, the Tremere were grudgingling extended an offer, but really had no choice, if they wanted to survive. The price was access to their tricks, but the Tremere are viewed at about the same level as the Nosferatu are, socially. Everyone knows they are on thin ice, and grudges have not died off. Their Thaumaturgy and their pyramid are their saving graces. In addition to their Blood Binding weakness, Tremere are disallowed from Princedom, and treat Status as one dot lower.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Beckett View Post
                                In addition to their Blood Binding weakness, Tremere are disallowed from Princedom, and treat Status as one dot lower.
                                As we have seen with the Tremere and the Caitiff before, social based weakness never seems to work correctly. I would much prefer remove their Paths and rework some of their previous powers into Rituals.
                                If a new weakness is needed, maybe an inability to bloodbuff or a lack of fangs.

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X