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Why people hate the tremere?

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  • #16
    Just as a point of clarification, when I say "Vampire Wizards," I mean that's the idea that spread through the fanbase at the time. Literally, "All these guys are vampires, but these guys are vampires AND wizards! Like D&D with fangs!" It was a full-on. Some of the art didn't help either, with Tremere in robes, casting rituals, and Lure of Flames was just called "Fireball" by players, and Movement of the Mind was "the Force."

    Now, I actually like the Tremere; I think they have an interesting (if contrived at times) backstory, I think they have a unique experience for the player, and offer a different (if skewed) viewpoint to the "regular" Clans. That being said, I've found that reinforcing the rigid pyramid structure turns people off playing them, especially when you hand them an actual typed schedule of their characters' nightly duties (4am - 6am: "Free Time").

    Also, Lure of Flames is just the worst.

    Cheers!


    If you don't use an Oxford comma, I feel bad for you, son,
    'Cuz I got ninety-nine problems, but clarity ain't one.

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    • #17
      I think the Tremere in the Dark Ages are pretty interesting. The book "House of Tremere" does a great job of painting these creepy sorcerers as nasty and disturbed, just as they are suppose to be. In the modern setting I think they are pretty damn lame. I think it's because Kolduns, Abyss Mystics and Assamite Sorcerers have replaced the Tremere as a mysterious magical element in the game, and we were left with dull Harry Potters that could pull any spell out their arse for no reason whatsoever. Because of their great variety of spells I think they are more often chosen by the players who loves the idea of powerful discplines rather than great roleplaying, which ofc couldn't have helped their already bad reputation.

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      • #18
        I can see why the Tremere are hated: - largely for the above cited reasons and more. It's an unfortunate side-effect of their clan structure and power set that people have been able to twink them out, not dissimilar to the way that how many Assamites are played has put a lot of players off the clan in general.

        I think if the Tremere are made to appear more secretive, cultlike, obsessed with the accumulation of knowledge and generally mistrusted but useful in a pinch, people would prefer them to when they're portrayed as fireball-slinging Merlins.


        Matthew Dawkins
        In-House Developer for Onyx Path Publishing

        ~Hapax Legomenon~

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        • #19
          Oh, and I typically cut out most of the secondary paths of Thaumaturgy. If I don't feel like a power fits into my Vampire game thematically (weather control, technomancy etc.) then it becomes unavailable.


          Matthew Dawkins
          In-House Developer for Onyx Path Publishing

          ~Hapax Legomenon~

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          • #20
            Originally posted by The Gentleman Gamer View Post
            Oh, and I typically cut out most of the secondary paths of Thaumaturgy. If I don't feel like a power fits into my Vampire game thematically (weather control, technomancy etc.) then it becomes unavailable.
            There goes all the fun of using the new hacking powers in Anarchs Unbound.

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            • #21
              Originally posted by theoutlander523 View Post
              There goes all the fun of using the new hacking powers in Anarchs Unbound.
              Hehehe. I think the Gentleman Gamer meant if it "wasn't appropriately fitting" for the game you are running. My Tremere character has just picked up the Path of Technomancy, and being a security consultant, both hardware and software wise, my storyteller deemed it appropriate. Being as the game is centred around espionage and subterfuge it's doubly appropriate. If on the other hand the character was a booky occultist set in a game revolving around the themes of The Beast, descent and waning humanity, I would call it inappropriate. Please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, Gentleman Gamer.


              Miley Cyrus is obviously a Nephandi and a Cultists love-child. *Shudders*

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              • #22
                I guess I am lucky to have only played in campaigns were the Tremere were not uber beast or anything. Tremere are one of my favorite clans, the idea of sorcerers scheming and plotting to gain eternal life only to be slightly let down when they got what they were looking for is great. I am used to seeing Tremere as investigators more than power players, people looking for all the information even if they can be easily killed off (note: my experience in the LARPS and games I have played in). I will admit that they are bit of assholes but to be honest that goes for most vampires but when played right they can really enhance a game and not detract from it.

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by WanderingMystic View Post
                  I guess I am lucky to have only played in campaigns were the Tremere were not uber beast or anything. Tremere are one of my favorite clans, the idea of sorcerers scheming and plotting to gain eternal life only to be slightly let down when they got what they were looking for is great. I am used to seeing Tremere as investigators more than power players, people looking for all the information even if they can be easily killed off (note: my experience in the LARPS and games I have played in). I will admit that they are bit of assholes but to be honest that goes for most vampires but when played right they can really enhance a game and not detract from it.
                  Couldn't have put it better myself. In fact simply because my present character is interested in information, security and secrets and not in throwing fireballs and impersonating Magneto I'm having a blast. And yes, a non-combat Tremere is generally road-kill in a brawl. But that's what Ghouls are for


                  Miley Cyrus is obviously a Nephandi and a Cultists love-child. *Shudders*

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                  • #24
                    I kinda agree with Gentleman Gamer on that power should be limited in some way. I disagree in terms of mood for an entire campaign though but thats me, i tend to allow almost everything. But i will disallow it at CharGen if it doesnt fit the theme of the PC. For example in a campaign we meet a group of tremeres and one of them was technomancer and all her paths were techrelated. Same with my PC which my DM only let me get either the spirit related paths or the Faux path at CharGen as he was a kinfolk con-man.

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Andreas Rayne View Post
                      It’s interesting for me to read others views on the Tremere.
                      As the predominant storyteller of our group the Tremere have always taken very much a back seat in my chronicles.
                      I’ve never had anyone play them, and in all of my Camarilla centric stories this highly insular and mistrusted clan were hardly given any screen time.
                      The temptation is there for a storyteller to use the Tremere as a deus ex machina, with all of their flashy powers they could ride in and save the day. Luckily I have never resorted to this tactic.
                      The closest I have come was during a Sabbat raid where the Regent did intervene and save the PC’s from an especially nasty Tzimisce.

                      I’ve always found the Tremere’s history interesting and rife with story hooks.
                      I understand a lot of peoples’ views on their early nights.
                      With so many enemies, enemies who were Cainites long before they, its hard to understand how on earth they survived.
                      This discrepancy has never really been explained, other than they were well-entrenched, highly organised and had access to Gargoyles.

                      Recently I’ve hung up my storyteller hat and donned the guise of a Tremere character in a friend’s chronicle.
                      He couldn’t be further away from the fireball-throwing twink many hate.
                      He’s a security expert with high levels in Mental and Knowledges, four dots in the Path of Blood, and recently has acquired two dots in the Path of Technomancy.
                      His combat effectiveness leaves much to be desired and relies solely on his ghoul for protection.
                      If only he could dominate the battlefield with kewl powerz, as the story revolves around the systematic destruction of Clan Tremere by Tzimisce, Nosferatu and Gangrel hell-bent on righting old wrongs.
                      Right now he’s just running for his unlife.

                      Once again I suspect that the problem with the Tremere stems from how you see them and how you use them.
                      There will always be the possibility of super powered combat monsters laying waste to all of your favourite NPC’s, or the NPC Tremere who steals the show from your own characters.
                      But this isn’t solely a Tremere phenomena; Lasombra tentacles, Tzimisce fleshcrafting and Celerity-running, Potence-pumping, axe-wielding Brujah are just as numerous in our games.

                      Thematically I think Tremere are appropriate, because I’ve never seen them as “Vampire Wizards” but simply as “Blood Occultists”, which frankly fits Vampire fine.
                      well said on all counts, you did forget to mention the mortal wizards chasing after the Tremere when it came time to bring up their enemies though... just saying.

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                      • #26
                        Thaumaturgy is its own can of worms. Its not just one discipline like Bardo, Potence, or Obfuscate. Its several different discipline powers that are placed into categories that are mostly "Path of ..." along with the addition of several different rituals. Thaumaturgy is like a swiss army knife if you build your vampire right. It can eventually go hand and hand with the Batman / God Wizard complaint that D&D DMs tend to have if a lot of XP has been poured into Thaumaturgy by a player. The closest I have seen it done was a player that made a Catiff vampire that learned many powerful Thaumaturgy and Koldunic Sorcery disciplines over the two years of the campaign's five year lifespan.

                        Its less about Tremere and more about their specific clan discipline Thaumaturgy in the long run. Got an extra five points at character creation? Spend it on Additional Discpline to treat Thaumaturgy as a clan discipline for that Toreador character of yours.
                        Last edited by Child_of_Osiris; 06-23-2014, 08:51 PM.

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                        • #27
                          As far as why people hate the Tremere it's partly because the clan comes off as a bunch of arrogant elitists who think they're better than everyone else... just like the Ventrue, the Lasombra, the Setite's the Toreador... oh wait, almost ALL of the clans are a bunch of elitist douche bags who think they're better than everyone else...

                          Well I guess it's because they have thamaturgy and they're not sharing it, pretty much everybody would like to have thamaturgy but no one else does (with a few exceptions), a lot of players want it but don't want to play Tremere because for what it's worth their clan flaw is actually pretty bad when you're bound by a strict pyramid like leadership structure, I tell my players that want to play Tremere that they better be ready to play peons in the Pyramid and follow orders, because you don't get to be in a clan like that and just have free reign, you can't just do what most kindred do and run with any coterie you want as long as the Prince doesn't notice.

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                          • #28
                            They can very easily be done poorly and be seen as a toolshed of different magical paths by new players or experienced power gamers. This is especially true if the ST does not drive home the core concepts of the Clan and the incredibly difficulty of learning paths other than the starting one due to the super secretive Clan being internally more secretive about magic and protective of their power.

                            I've always been lucky enough to have good STs who will very much let you learn other paths if you spend a good amount of time, effort, skill, and resources going about the process of finding a teacher and convincing him why he should even care you exist.

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Dream_Walker View Post
                              well said on all counts, you did forget to mention the mortal wizards chasing after the Tremere when it came time to bring up their enemies though... just saying.
                              Thanks. And yes, I did miss out the OoH. I planned to edit my post and include them but forgot. Sorry about that.


                              Miley Cyrus is obviously a Nephandi and a Cultists love-child. *Shudders*

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                              • #30
                                From the way this thread is going, it seems that the biggest issue is just the spectrum of powers that a Tremere could potentially have. I tend to steer my players away from min/maxing, so I wouldn't allow every path of Thaumaturgy from the get go. If a player wants to have access to some ridiculous path for no other reason than to have it, then they will have to go through the local Tremere Hierarchy, whereupon the regent will out right deny them from learning it for the very good reason that "you'll do something stupid with it."

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