Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Why people hate the tremere?

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #76
    I think a huge flaw of the game starting with second edition for sure but even back to first edition is the endless stuff they added to books. It was probably done in part to get you to want to keep up with all of the supplements, but new clans, new paths, new disciplines, new merits, new rituals, new combo disciplines, new whatever I'm forgetting really bloated the game and opened up a lot of broken things and turned vampire the masquerade into a completely different (and to my mind inferior) game.

    Nothing gained from this as much as Thaumaturgy if you ask me. It doesn't do a few things well it's pretty much a one stop shop of all you need. It's not adding a new discipline to try and learn it's just adding powerful chunks of versatility and counters to the powers that will come at you.

    I agree with limiting it though, I tell people it doesn't exist and vampires can't do magic. This is a thread about why we hate the Tremere right

    Comment


    • #77
      Originally posted by Zanos View Post
      The really powerful thaumaturgy is the stuff that breaks rules. Creating an item that reveals all supernatural and concealed creatures, a ritual that makes you incorporeal for hours, path of blood raising your effective generation, removing blood bonding from vitae, preventing entire rooms of people from even lying by omission, spying on your enemies at no risk to yourself; that's the good stuff. I have a list of good thaumaturgy powers somewhere, and i don't think anything that deals damage was on it.
      Yes, the rituals that let you break other core mechanics are the most worrisome ones - Mirror of second sight (As written in the Ritual) lets you see through any illusion or invisibility as well as seeing the true form of creatures. Put it on a Gargoyle and they don't have to restrict their vision with a stupid mirror.
      Too many rituals duplicate effects of other disciplines (that you don't then need to buy) even though the ritual creation rules explicitly say you can't do that....

      Originally posted by Zanos View Post
      I'm also surprised people hate the Tremere because they did a bunch of evil shit. This is Vampire, right?
      Yeah, but they did so much stuff that is considered "Evil" on a vampire scale...And in more recent memory than others.

      Comment


      • #78
        I think it is less that they did so much "evil" as much as that both the scale and frequency to which they did so many unlikely things is rediculous, and only possible if everyone else is stupid. It is kind of like fan fiction.

        Comment


        • #79
          Originally posted by Beckett View Post
          I think it is less that they did so much "evil" as much as that both the scale and frequency to which they did so many unlikely things is rediculous, and only possible if everyone else is stupid. It is kind of like fan fiction.
          I'm not too sure what they did is too ridiculous to digest compared to other clans.
          I mean, Assamites were a whole clan of diablerists. And diablerie is one of the things universally considered bad (at least for public opinion) in the vampire world. And Tremere helped solve the problem, and the effect lasted for centuries. Yet all clans didn't agree to wipe out the Assamites.
          Giovanni too were quite bad, but other clans agreed to leave them be if Giovanni agreed to stay out of the jyhad or something similarly vague. Agreement that was ignored basically every night ever.

          Tremere were culprit of "stealing the gift", something I feel akin to "they killed their progenitor" (what Lasombra did). Stuff that enrages tradionalist elders and methuselah but many other vampires couldn't care less.
          Sure it would have made more sense if Salubri were a clan of bastards or diablerists, like Assamites, or infernalists; people that other clans would have been happy to get rid of.
          But again Cappadocians weren't that bad too.


          101 simple plot ideas for VtM

          Comment


          • #80
            Originally posted by Ravnos View Post
            Tremere were culprit of "stealing the gift", something I feel akin to "they killed their progenitor" (what Lasombra did). Stuff that enrages tradionalist elders and methuselah but many other vampires couldn't care less.
            Sure it would have made more sense if Salubri were a clan of bastards or diablerists, like Assamites, or infernalists; people that other clans would have been happy to get rid of.
            But again Cappadocians weren't that bad too.
            This makes sense, but vampires are hypocrites, and generally speaking, the older the vampire the bigger the hypocrite.

            As I've said in other threads about this, the Salubri were the Fun Police of the Cainite world. For all other Cainites' talk of Salubri piety and exemplary, most despised the Salubri for their lack of utility, silent judgment of other clans, and moralization. The alternative were the Tremere, who brought colossal utility and eagerness to leverage that utility, absent the posturing and henpecking of the Salubri. Much talk of how the Tremere came to being as a clan was performative, or quickly forgotten in the face of the reality in which Cainites found themselves: they had new potential allies and pawns with much to offer, whilst being freer than ever to be inhumane assholes. Vampires who genuinely hated the Tremere for what they did (to the Salubri) were a extremely small minority, and in the largest scale not influential to turn the tide.

            Vampires who genuinely hated the Tremere, and that hatred perpetuated through the centuries to be passed onto childer and grandchilder to grow into clan enmities, hated the Tremere because they had been victimized by the Tremere, not because of what the Tremere did to the Salubri.

            Consider the following: the Tremere's longest, best, strongest allies have always been the Ventrue, the clan most responsible for, and most strongly waged, the Crusades. Not the Lasombra, even though they were entirely preoccupied with the Shadow Reconquista whose base of power was Italy; not the Toreador, whose clan was ripped apart by the Albigensian and Waldensian crusades and Cainite Heresy, whose base of power was the cultural beating heart of Medieval Europe; nor even the devoutly Christian Nosferatu, Malkavians, or Cappadocians. The Ventrue, whose support for and waging of the Crusades would make them natural allies of the Salubri...or so one would think.

            Obviously, this was not the case, so what was? Ventrue support for the Crusades had nothing to do with piety or Christianity, they were in it to grab land. The Salubri were a liability to this end, ergo when a more useful clan of vampires replaced them whose interests aligned with the Ventrue's own, they discarded the Salubri to embrace the new vampires as allies.

            At the same time, this is why Assamites were never really "the enemy", despite every last reason for European Cainites to turn against them. They were a clan of Muslims, who supported the Saracens, and later the Turks. They were a clan of diablerists and assassins. They had powers beyond most European Cainites' experience or understanding, making them something to be feared and hated out of ignorance. They claimed the unilateral right to try, judge, and execute Cainites for disobeying the Traditions or turning to "evil", which made them a more violent, aggressive Fun Police than Salubri ever were (even Salubri warriors).

            But they were useful.
            Last edited by Theodrim; 06-10-2018, 11:24 AM.

            Comment


            • #81
              What you are describing is not what has ever been presented in the game Modern VtM or Dark Ages.

              While it might make sense for the Tremere, most of the details are nearly the exact opposite of how it actually happened.

              Comment


              • #82
                Originally posted by Vamps Like Us View Post

                I agree with limiting it though, I tell people it doesn't exist and vampires can't do magic.

                Then what do you call practically every discipline that's not Celerity, Potence or Fortitude?

                Comment


                • #83
                  I call them disciplines.

                  If Thaulmaturgy was just the path of blood it would be fine, but it's not. It's a system of power gaming. Rituals arn't discipline dots, there spells best left to mages. Multiple paths arn't disciplines either, the system was foolishly designed to end up with a bloated over powered mess. Without the bloated monstrosity of a discipline the Tremere arn't even a concept let alone a clan, it's their whole identity.

                  I think my opinion is pretty clear, I don't feel like spending forever beating the same drum. If you like wizard vampires then they should be part of your game. I don't really feel there is much for me to add to this thread, just responding since I was quoted and asked a direct question.

                  Comment


                  • #84
                    Originally posted by Vamps Like Us View Post
                    I call them disciplines.

                    If Thaulmaturgy was just the path of blood it would be fine, but it's not. It's a system of power gaming. Rituals arn't discipline dots, there spells best left to mages. Multiple paths arn't disciplines either, the system was foolishly designed to end up with a bloated over powered mess. Without the bloated monstrosity of a discipline the Tremere arn't even a concept let alone a clan, it's their whole identity.

                    I think my opinion is pretty clear, I don't feel like spending forever beating the same drum. If you like wizard vampires then they should be part of your game. I don't really feel there is much for me to add to this thread, just responding since I was quoted and asked a direct question.


                    I disagree with you on that.



                    What is Protean, Serpentis and Animalism if not some form of vampiric shamanism?


                    What is Dominate and Majesty if not some form of vampiric enchantment?


                    What is Obfuscate, Quietus and Chimerstry if not some form of vampiric ninjutsu?


                    What is Auspex and Dementation, if not evidence that a vampire's mind exists on a higher plane of awareness than most mortals?


                    What is Obtenebration if not evidence of the vampire's ability to apply physical substance to what was previously intangible?



                    What is NECROMANCY, if not an entirely separate school of magic with its own set of branching paths and philosophies akin to Thaumaturgy?


                    And before you decide to throw Necromancy out the window, too, I want to remind you that Vampires are themselves members of the undead; and when a vampire uses their powers to take control of a fellow vampire, they are using their abilities to control the undead, which is literally Necromancy in action!
                    Last edited by Nyrufa; 06-10-2018, 11:26 PM.

                    Comment


                    • #85
                      With Protean level 1 you can see in the dark, Animalism level 1 you can bark a conversation with a dog, Dominate level 1 lets you give a one word command etc...

                      Thaumaturgy level 1 lets you start a fire, move objects without touching them or whatever other path/s you take and it also lets you cast however many level one rituals you can get your hands on. Just one dot in thaumaturgy can give you a dozen different rituals/powers.

                      Necromancy was originally a discipline now it's vampire sorcery with paths and spells. I call it downgrade you probably think upgrade.

                      Sounds like it works for you, to each their own. No one misses vampire spell casters in my game, but the game is a tool box, we all use the stuff we like.

                      Comment


                      • #86
                        Originally posted by Vamps Like Us View Post
                        Thaumaturgy level 1 lets you start a fire, move objects without touching them or whatever other path/s you take and it also lets you cast however many level one rituals you can get your hands on. Just one dot in thaumaturgy can give you a dozen different rituals/powers.
                        The only time this becomes a problem is when the ST doesn't moderate it (and any ability needs moderation not just Thaumaturgy). You can't get a second Path until your first Path is at least at Level 2 and the ST has full control over what Paths and Rituals are available for the player to learn. If you just let your players choose whatever they want then of course it can become broken. If your only solution is to excise it completely when simply moderating it can balance your game then it speaks to me more on your limitations than the inherent problems with Thaumaturgy.

                        Now based on your other statements that you don't think it thematically fits with the setting then that's up to you. Personally I think magic existing in an inherently supernatural setting makes perfect sense and I think all the Blood Magics should be well developed and be built upon by multiple groups.

                        Comment


                        • #87
                          Originally posted by stanlemon View Post

                          The only time this becomes a problem is when the ST doesn't moderate it (and any ability needs moderation not just Thaumaturgy). You can't get a second Path until your first Path is at least at Level 2 and the ST has full control over what Paths and Rituals are available for the player to learn. If you just let your players choose whatever they want then of course it can become broken. If your only solution is to excise it completely when simply moderating it can balance your game then it speaks to me more on your limitations than the inherent problems with Thaumaturgy.

                          Now based on your other statements that you don't think it thematically fits with the setting then that's up to you. Personally I think magic existing in an inherently supernatural setting makes perfect sense and I think all the Blood Magics should be well developed and be built upon by multiple groups.


                          Also want to point out that Tremere losing their immortality and awakened magic was what prompted them to create Thaumaturgy in the first place. The universe told them it was going to take away their powers, and the Tremere's response was "fuck you, universe!"


                          Vamps Like Us My previous comment wasn't questioning what Thaumaturgy was capable of doing at lower levels, it was supposed to point out that outside of the 3 physical disciplines, virtually every other discipline they have access to can be described as a form of magic, or at least an awareness of magic. Casting aside one discipline and saying that wizard vampires don't exist is ridiculous.


                          Magic is not something that's inherently unique to Mages, and attempting to claim otherwise brings up enormous problems in regards to the other supernatural splats. Like the dream fueled Changelings, or the spiritually empowered Werewolves.


                          Having Thaumaturgy in and of itself was never a problem. Establishing it to be the exclusive property of the Tremere was why it was such a frustrating discipline to encounter.

                          But now that's changed, and pretty much everybody has their own brand of Thaumaturgy. So the scales have been balanced in terms of gameplay!
                          Last edited by Nyrufa; 06-10-2018, 11:16 PM.

                          Comment


                          • #88
                            Originally posted by Vamps Like Us View Post
                            Without the bloated monstrosity of a discipline the Tremere arn't even a concept let alone a clan, it's their whole identity.
                            They're an incredibly insular, universally-reviled, personality cult of archaic throwbacks with a siege mentality that would put doomsday preppers to shame. That pretty much stands alone in cWoD, even if you remove blood sorcery from the picture. Even if you remove their history being mortal mages, you could rewrite their backstory to be a revenant family, or a Tzimisce bloodline (which technically they are anyway), who revolted against their parent clan and turned their fangs on the Salubri for the sake of power. The concept still stands.

                            But, sparing that, you could still kick it old school (or take pages from the video games) and remove all rituals and paths aside from Path of Blood and simply call that Thaumaturgy. That one path is certainly powerful enough to be a discipline in its own right. Then it becomes a matter of the clan simply rationalizing that discipline, or even all their disciplines, as a form of sorcery. They wouldn't be the only -- or first -- clan to rationalize disciplines outside the stereotypical, fundamentally Noddist, norm (the Lasombra clanbook being one major example).

                            Comment


                            • #89
                              Originally posted by Theodrim View Post

                              But, sparing that, you could still kick it old school (or take pages from the video games) and remove all rituals and paths aside from Path of Blood and simply call that Thaumaturgy. That one path is certainly powerful enough to be a discipline in its own right. Then it becomes a matter of the clan simply rationalizing that discipline, or even all their disciplines, as a form of sorcery. They wouldn't be the only -- or first -- clan to rationalize disciplines outside the stereotypical, fundamentally Noddist, norm (the Lasombra clanbook being one major example).
                              Fine with me, but you just lost at least 90% of the people willing to play a Tremere I'd bet.

                              I think people have misread the thread title from why do people hate the Tremere to You should defend Tremere against peoples dislike and argue why it's all good. If you love the Tremere I'm not even sure why you'd be posting lol.

                              It's ok to run a game with the clan, I'm sure most games do. As I said I don't do blood Sorcery nor do I use the Mage system I adapt the Vampire magic systems to the humans. If someone wanted a Necromancer really bad like I said, I'd use the original version. I personally cut out most clans all bloodlines and Tremere and Gangrel in the game I just started because I like it that way at the moment (the other original 8 disciplines).

                              I'm also watching some documentaries on youtube about ancient Greece Rome and Egypt for a DA game I'll run at some point where I'll use everything in the DA book minus Blood Magic. but all the clans/bloodlines and wacky disciplines besides that will be back.

                              @the many defenders of the clan, If you love the Tremere and think it's all perfectly balanced, no one can take them away. Roll with the not really a clan weakness and Thaumaturgy broken as is.

                              Perhaps start a thread Why people should love the Tremere



                              Comment


                              • #90
                                I think, for Thaumaturgy, a better solution would be to have a lot of the other groups have more exclusive paths the Tremere can not access.

                                Making Thaumaturgy an Out of Clan Discipline even for Tremere might also help balance it some.

                                Just moderate it comes with a few problems. Moderation is subjective, and what one person feels is a proper amount, others will feel is too much and others not enough. It has also been a known issue from day one, along with other aspects of the Clan, (no wealness, crunch not supporting fluff, etc). Past a games 2nd Ed, just house rule it kind of doesn't cut it.
                                Last edited by Beckett; 06-11-2018, 03:02 AM.

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X