Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Why people hate the tremere?

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #91
    Originally posted by Vamps Like Us View Post
    I think people have misread the thread title from why do people hate the Tremere to You should defend Tremere against peoples dislike and argue why it's all good. If you love the Tremere I'm not even sure why you'd be posting lol.
    Sorry friend but I don't think that's how a forum is supposed to work. Or the whole internet. Or human discussions in general.
    What are you suggesting is "Everyone that agrees can post. Those that disagree can't."
    It's death for human debate, and for hearing other points of view.
    While I agree that thaumaturgy is highly unbalanced (and I'm not on the side of those that say game balance doesn't matter), I never considered other points of view I've read in this thread and certainly they're food for the mind.
    Also people in a forum usually like to argue and have fun doing it


    101 simple plot ideas for VtM

    Comment


    • #92
      That's a bit extreme. Forums have rules against things like threadcrapping and derailing for a reason.

      If I make a thread to pose a question, I want to hear answers to that question. It doesn't mean I don't want debate, or counterpoints to assertions that seem shaky, but taking that allowance to hijack the thread into answering a different question is bad for the forum working, and general human discussions.

      The ability to constrain discussions to a topic is actually vital for human debate, and trying to say that tamping down on subjects that exceed the limits of the topic is "death for human debate" or some sort of method of silencing/dismissing dissent is far more dangerous to actual debating.

      The "what about Necromancy!" thing is a great example. Whataboutism is generally bad for reasoned debate (it's a fallacy after all) because it never actually refutes anything, or provides real food for the mind. It's just an attempt to paint someone else as a hypocrite. Whataboutism is especially dangerous to topics that are highly subjective (like hating a fictional group of vampires), because taste doesn't have to be logical. "If you don't like Thaumaturgy, then what about Necromancy," doesn't matter. I can hypocritically hate the Tremere and Thaumaturgy with them, without finding Necromancy and the Clans/Bloodlines that get it as in-Clan objectionable on the same level. I don't have to justify it. It's just how I feel. Asking it isn't about a deeper understanding of why people don't like the Tremere (the topic we're talking about talking about), but simply an inverse, "Everyone that disagrees should post. Those that agree shouldn't."

      Or perhaps less meta-debate stuff: Some people, when noticing a thread is drifting significantly from the intended topic, would rather post that observation in hopes of heading off potentially rules breaking posts that continue to push the thread away; esp. in a confrontational fashion towards the initial point of the thread. Not everyone has the same desire to engage in debates, or wants to argue as opposed to express their views.

      So, tl:dr, maybe take the hint and tone back on the debate so it doesn't derail the thread.

      Comment


      • #93
        Ravnos eh, it's more my way of saying if you don't understand the difference between say Presence and Thaumaturgy as far as one being a casting spells/rituals, multiple paths vs set powers I can't help you see it, my position isn't going to change on how broke it is, not sure why people feel the need to argue. I think the fact that it's a thread to say why you dislike the clan is relevant though. It's not "are the Tremere a good clan?" which would be more open to debate. People who like Tremere are basically saying you hate them wrong it just strikes me funny. As I've said several times though if you like something use it.

        I was thinking multiply the exp cost for the discipline & paths by 2 including 2 of your starting dots to get a 1 Thaumaturgy and rituals costing level x4 would probably balance it. Posting that I'm sure people would debate why that's too high to them. Honestly though I wasn't trying to fix them, just point out why I think of them as lame.

        Saying things like a good story teller would just restrict and control things (paraphrasing Stanlemon from a page back) aren't helpful. I say no to the whole thing so it's restricted Even if your not dropping rituals like candy on Halloween a game that lasts a few years is going to have quite a bit of power creep unless your suggesting to let them take the discipline and just say no no no all the time. If they spend points and you say nope no new rituals again and again and again I think it'd be worse.

        Offering up examples of exactly how you restrict it like Beckett did would be more interesting. Still would not be for me, but it would at least be interesting to read.
        Last edited by Vamps Like Us; 06-11-2018, 06:31 AM.

        Comment


        • #94
          Originally posted by Vamps Like Us View Post

          I personally cut out most clans all bloodlines and Tremere and Gangrel in the game I just started because I like it that way at the moment (the other original 8 disciplines).




          Wait, what? Why would you cut out the Gangrel!? They're one of my top 3 favorite clans in Masquerade!

          If it's because of Protean, that doesn't make any sense. As shapeshifting has been an iconic ability within the vampire mythos for decades, at least!


          If it's because of the way they conduct themselves, then I take it you weren't a fan of The Lost Boys, or Fright Night?
          Last edited by Nyrufa; 06-11-2018, 08:45 AM.

          Comment


          • #95
            Heavy Arms It's not Thaumaturgy in and of itself that I have a problem with. An entire form of magic deriving its power from blood makes perfect sense in a vampire themed setting. The reason to hate the Tremere, for me personally, comes from how poorly they seem to have been handled.

            First of all, the Tremere had a monopoly on one of the most versatile (and powerful) disciplines in the setting. They didn't share their secrets with anybody, and if you somehow got your hands on it, they'd kill your ass at the first opportunity. The Tremere were a clan of power gamers who didn't want anybody else to be power gamers too.


            But in later editions, they changed it to practically everybody having their own branches of Thaumaturgy, and now instead of the Tremere becoming some kind of over powered threat, they've become a pointless edition to the game. The entire reason the Tremere got accepted into the Camarilla is because they had knowledge on a subject nobody else knew about, and they aimed to keep it that way. But now anybody can get their hands on it, and suddenly it's become "Why do we still need you guys, again?"


            I've seen some arguments stating the reason the Tremere are still valuable is because their style of Thaumaturgy uses science, rather than relying on occult mysticism to perform its spells. But that doesn't matter out of character, because no matter how you perform it, the powers and effects of Thaumaturgy are mechanically identical across every style. If the Tremere's version of Thaumaturgy seems like a better alternative, it's purely flavor text and nothing more.

            You'd get the same exact results from the Levinbolt if you were a student of Thaumaturgy or a Punks Sorcerer. Sure, the Tremere might go around telling people that Punks Sorcery is unpredictable and their magic could fly out of control. But this is complete bunk, because at no point do the games mechanics confirm this to be the case. Levinbolt functions exactly the same across all styles, and the Tremere are full of shit.

            Comment


            • #96
              Originally posted by Heavy Arms View Post
              .
              The "what about Necromancy!" thing is a great example. Whataboutism is generally bad for reasoned debate (it's a fallacy after all) because it never actually refutes anything, or provides real food for the mind. It's just an attempt to paint someone else as a hypocrite. Whataboutism is especially dangerous to topics that are highly subjective (like hating a fictional group of vampires), because taste doesn't have to be logical. "If you don't like Thaumaturgy, then what about Necromancy," doesn't matter. I can hypocritically hate the Tremere and Thaumaturgy with them, without finding Necromancy and the Clans/Bloodlines that get it as in-Clan objectionable on the same level. I don't have to justify it. It's just how I feel.
              Except logic was given, that part of why they disliked Tremere (or why they think others do) is because of the broken nature of Thaumaturgy. Someone doesn't have to defend taste, but it seems valid to question justifications.

              That said, their point about necromancy was more about misunderstanding the complaint. Which they seemed to think was, 'I don't like Thaumaturgy because it is magic' when all disciplines basically are magic.

              Comment


              • #97
                Originally posted by Nyrufa View Post
                Heavy Arms It's not Thaumaturgy in and of itself that I have a problem with. An entire form of magic deriving its power from blood makes perfect sense in a vampire themed setting. The reason to hate the Tremere, for me personally, comes from how poorly they seem to have been handled.

                First of all, the Tremere had a monopoly on one of the most versatile (and powerful) disciplines in the setting. They didn't share their secrets with anybody, and if you somehow got your hands on it, they'd kill your ass at the first opportunity. The Tremere were a clan of power gamers who didn't want anybody else to be power gamers too.


                But in later editions, they changed it to practically everybody having their own branches of Thaumaturgy, and now instead of the Tremere becoming some kind of over powered threat, they've become a pointless edition to the game. The entire reason the Tremere got accepted into the Camarilla is because they had knowledge on a subject nobody else knew about, and they aimed to keep it that way. But now anybody can get their hands on it, and suddenly it's become "Why do we still need you guys, again?"


                I've seen some arguments stating the reason the Tremere are still valuable is because their style of Thaumaturgy uses science, rather than relying on occult mysticism to perform its spells. But that doesn't matter out of character, because no matter how you perform it, the powers and effects of Thaumaturgy are mechanically identical across every style. If the Tremere's version of Thaumaturgy seems like a better alternative, it's purely flavor text and nothing more.

                You'd get the same exact results from the Levinbolt if you were a student of Thaumaturgy or a Punks Sorcerer. Sure, the Tremere might go around telling people that Punks Sorcery is unpredictable and their magic could fly out of control. But this is complete bunk, because at no point do the games mechanics confirm this to be the case. Levinbolt functions exactly the same across all styles, and the Tremere are full of shit.
                But there are a few reasons that Tremere Thaumaturgy is different than all others. Namely that because Tremere Thaumaturgy is based off of Occult Science, it can learn the styles/effects of other forms of Blood Magic and mimic or improve them.

                Secondarily, Tremere Thaumaturgy can utilize past principles to create new Paths, or at least very much more quickly. Other forms of Thaumaturgy are pretty much locked as is, and sometimes require additional catalysts, while the Tremere's versions do not.

                I think the real quest is who in their right mind would choose to have super secret, its going to cost you Boons for me to use it for you Blood Magic over usually free healing the body and soul as your ally?

                Comment


                • #98
                  Originally posted by Vamps Like Us View Post

                  Fine with me, but you just lost at least 90% of the people willing to play a Tremere I'd bet.
                  You could say the same thing if you removed Celerity from Brujah, and replaced it with something perhaps more thematically-appropriate like Animalism. Or, if you replaced the Ventrue discipline spread with the antitribu's (swapping Presence for Auspex), which is thematically and mechanically superior and more appropriate. Or, in a lesser case, went exclusively with first edition (Dominate) Malkavians but stripped away the Fae stuff. The issue with this summation is, you're judging an entire clan exclusively by the powergamers the clan attracts, and applying that judgment by default to anyone who is attracted to the clan, then expecting them to prove to you they're not.

                  Are you surprised when people challenge that assertion? Really surprised?

                  Sure, powergamers and roll-players exist. Every game has powergamers and roll-players. Vampire's no different. Vampire just brings to the table multiple powergaming clans, which appeal to different sorts of powergamers. Brujah attract the "might is right" powergamer. Ventrue attract the type of powergamer who weaponizes dialogue (and this is for some reason more acceptable, even normalized, in the cWoD community). Malkavians attract the "watch the world burn" powergamer. Tremere attract the "way overthinking it, and has a plan for everything" powergamer.

                  Mileage may vary -- "might is right" powergamers may prefer Gangrel for their (overrated) ability to do aggravated at character gen, and I've never seen one turn down an opportunity to play a City Gangrel if they know their shit. Likewise, dialogue weaponizers, if they've been around the block long enough to really know their shit, are going to prefer Toreador or even Ventrue antitribu (but that depends on how much attention the ST pays to Auspex Spidey-Sense). And, really, the Tremere are the easiest and least subtle option for "way overthinking it" power gamers; (Dominate) Malkavians are actually the best possible option for that.

                  Generally, dislike for clans tends to correspond with the type of power gamer an individual player dislikes most, because they invalidate the experiences they prefer. Everybody can agree power gaming and roll-playing is bad, but what sort of power gaming is "worse" is highly subjective. Players heavily invested in narrative and dialogue aren't going to be fond of smashers and world-burners, because they invalidate deep and immersive gaming. Players who prefer (narratively or mechanically) controlled environments aren't going to like world-burners or preppers, because they derail and/or throw off game balance. Players who prefer less-weighty experiences aren't going to like diplomats or preppers, because they bog down games with shit they don't want to deal with. Players who prefer dynamic and highly-fluid games aren't going to like preppers or diplomats, because they railroad games.

                  None of those are wrong, they're just perspectives. I'm just pointing out that power gaming isn't as straightforward as one would think, but neither are the priorities and opinions players bring to the table, and together those two facets create a tension at the table that's highly subjective. But, that subjectivity, nor the very real phenomena upon which that subjectivity rests, be used to make sweeping generalizations.

                  Being one of the people in your 10% -- I love the idea of, what is in essence a totalitarian, doomsday prepper, cult clan. Given the "gothic horror" nature of the game and eschatonic themes, I personally feel it fits right in. After all, one of the two major sects (two of the four if you include the Inconnu and TMR) is an eschatonic doomsday cult. Honestly, you're only seeing in the Tremere what you want to see -- the blood sorcery -- and that's a valid enough conclusion to draw, after all in earlier versions (before any clan was really flushed out, really) their "hat" was "D&D Blood Wizard", and they were pulled from Ars Magica.

                  But, you can't really ignore the later editions' attempts to flesh out the clan and give them a character beyond the blood sorcery. Just like WW did with all the clans. If you can't find enough to justify the clan in that material, well, your table, your rules, and sadly that's where this conversation must end.

                  With regards to the rest, I'm not sure how long you've been on these forums but this thread pops up about two or three times a year and generally contains all the same talking points. It's the same posters, myself included, saying all the same things time after time; it's practically memetic, and someone could probably write a chatbot that would reproduce the same exact thread at this point while all of us take the day off to discuss other topics. It's a polarized topic, and a well-beaten horse. Generally, it's newer posters who haven't been here long enough to see the previous threads who kick it off all over again.

                  And indeed that's the nature of an online forum, and in a twenty-five year-old game the major points of controversy and community fracture have been known for years. This is one of them. Same shit happens with "Malkavian vs. Fishmalk", celpotence Brujah and the powergamer mindset, and basically anything to do with the Tzimisce. So, knowing this, one must ask "what did you expect?" of this thread.

                  Comment


                  • #99
                    Originally posted by Beckett View Post


                    Secondarily, Tremere Thaumaturgy can utilize past principles to create new Paths, or at least very much more quickly. Other forms of Thaumaturgy are pretty much locked as is, and sometimes require additional catalysts, while the Tremere's versions do not.
                    Except that's not really the case when you consider how the Assamites broke their curse. Their signature discipline makes them especially vulnerable to blood curses, and one of the first things Ur-Shulgi did after waking up from who knows how long of Torpor was break the Tremere's curse on his clan. I'm not entirely clear on the details, since some sources tell me that he broke the curse effortlessly with a flex of his will, and others told me he needed a week to set up a ritual to do it.

                    But the point stands that he only needed a week to study a recently (from his perspective) applied curse and solve a way to lift it after he had been out of commission for centuries.

                    The difference between mystical Thaumaturgy and scientific Thaumaturgy is purely flavor text and nothing more.


                    The Tremere are unnecessary as a clan. They would have made far more sense to be their own faction of magically inclined vampires, like the Circle of the Crone from Requiem.
                    Last edited by Nyrufa; 06-11-2018, 11:49 AM.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Nyrufa View Post
                      Heavy Arms It's not Thaumaturgy in and of itself that I have a problem with. An entire form of magic deriving its power from blood makes perfect sense in a vampire themed setting. The reason to hate the Tremere, for me personally, comes from how poorly they seem to have been handled.
                      I know it's going back a ways but I did express this back in post #4 myself. I think Thaumaturgy is mechanically questionable, but when the game expanded blood sorcery it also grew that beyond Thaumaturgy.

                      Originally posted by Monalfie View Post
                      Except logic was given, that part of why they disliked Tremere (or why they think others do) is because of the broken nature of Thaumaturgy. Someone doesn't have to defend taste, but it seems valid to question justifications.
                      Yeah, and Thaumaturgy has been debated plenty. Whataboutism around Necromancy, or Disciplines in general? Not really a good way to question that justification.

                      The "good STs, or rather people that want to blame players for using the tools the game provides for having fun with what's in the books instead of blaming the books for including all that stuff, will just disallow/restrict things," is also not a good questioning of the justification.

                      Nobody's really questioning the justification of, "Thaumaturgy is busted," as all the counterpoints effectively cede that it is.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Nyrufa View Post
                        Heavy Arms
                        First of all, the Tremere had a monopoly on one of the most versatile (and powerful) disciplines in the setting. They didn't share their secrets with anybody, and if you somehow got your hands on it, they'd kill your ass at the first opportunity. The Tremere were a clan of power gamers who didn't want anybody else to be power gamers too.


                        But in later editions, they changed it to practically everybody having their own branches of Thaumaturgy, and now instead of the Tremere becoming some kind of over powered threat, they've become a pointless edition to the game. The entire reason the Tremere got accepted into the Camarilla is because they had knowledge on a subject nobody else knew about, and they aimed to keep it that way. But now anybody can get their hands on it, and suddenly it's become "Why do we still need you guys, again?"
                        I would disagree with the idea that "anyone" can get their hands on blood sorcery. One of the facts stressed in the introduction to Blood Sacrifice is how basically everyone who knows blood magic is highly protective of it. You had to either join a particular club (which isn't always possible; not everyone is as inviting as the Followers of Set), or find a lone blood magician and convince her to teach you (which can become a campaign unto itself). Even a Tremere - who exists INSIDE the Clan structure - can't get access to all the blood magic Paths and Rituals they could want. The fact that all the books present these vast blood magic options, almost like a shopping list, doesn't change the fact that this is rare, obscure knowledge. It doesn't matter if there is one group that hordes it or several, they are all protective of their magical lore.

                        More importantly, though, I disagree with the idea that the Tremere are no longer interesting or viable because they are no longer special. Just because certain sects also have blood magic doesn't cease to make Clan Tremere a bunch of powergamers, interested in amassing great deals of knowledge and influence, and making sure as few rivals exist in their domains. That's still their bag. It's just that it's no longer a sure thing for the Tremere. There ARE rivals to their magical might and the services that might provides. This doesn't negate their function, it makes it MORE INTERESTING.

                        Because now it's not a status quo, boring as can be, but an aspiration for the Clan and a source for conflict. It's a source for tension, because the Tremere are rocked by the monopoly they worked so hard for coming apart at the seams. They have existed for centuries as THE experts in blood magic among "civilized" Kindred society. THE representation of the Camarilla status quo. The Tremere want to keep being that. But despite both a rigorous hunt against rivals in the Camarilla, and an enthusiastic propaganda campaign to hold themselves up as the sole and complete masters of blood magic, their seat is being challenged by contenders old and new.

                        Maybe I'm just weird, but I don't see that as making Clan Tremere redundant. I tend to consider sources of conflict to be good in an RPG, as it provides avenues for more stories.


                        Comment


                        • For my two cents on the topic, I would say most people dislike Tremere because they have no idea how to handle them.

                          Most STs don't really know how to run the clan weakness without making it a plot point, rather than a nightly mechanic. Further more I have seen a lot of STs completely glaze over the fact that the Tremere clan is tightly knit to the point that the clans needs often override the needs or desires of the neonates. If a Brujah leader gets a wild idea, the younger brujah are almost expected to argue it. When a Tremere leader decides to run an "experiment" do you think they consult the tremere neonates about their choice on participating or being a lab rat?

                          Most players get a bad case of "the grass is always greener" syndrome when they see the variety of powers and builds. When a use of Thaumaturgy works well, it can be amazing, but at the same time I don't see too many Brujah advocating that every time they use Celerity have to roll to see if they lose willpower. Its kind of like comparing a highlight reel of Tremere actions to every other clans blooper reel. Of course it feels unbalanced, but doesn't automatically mean it actually is.

                          Next we have to talk about the type of players who gravitate towards playing Tremere. Due to the large amount of rules, lore, backstory, and mechanics involved in playing a Tremere, this means the player is the type that is detail oriented, possibly a rules lawyer type who reads everything, and potentially the worst offense of all...… the type of player who tries to win before they ever step onto a battlefield. They win through manipulation and negation of everyone else's strengths. Think of Balish or Varys from GoT except immortal vampires with an entire clan of the same type of characters who are blood bound to fight together for a common goal. Okay to be fair that statement alone sounds OP, but you get what I am talking about.

                          Lastly I would like to talk about "White Room" arguments verses actual play sessions. Sure it sounds impressive to say that any given Tremere could combine x, y, and z powers to create such and such super character, but let's be honest here, not that many games last long enough to gain enough XP for a character to buy that many dots and pull off the combo. At the max xp per session of 5, playing once a week, in a year you would get 260 XP. It takes 170 XP of that to buy another complete path of thaumaturgy, never mind the requirements of learning rituals or upgrading other disciplines and stats. In short the XP drain alone should be keeping the power creep to such a crawl that it should be real life years before a Tremere can be truly game breaking. Obviously this changes if you play more often, but in truth you probably won't be hauling in the full 5+ xp every single session.

                          In short, everyone hates the sneaky bastard whose powers are to change the rules, regardless of how screwed that character is in other areas.

                          Comment


                          • Bluecho Okay, yeah, I can see the appeal of a setting where the Tremere are gradually losing their foothold in vampire society. But if we take that route, we have to consider that the other paths of Thaumaturgy are probably far older than the Tremere's version.

                            What with the Tremere clan being only a little over 1,000 years old, with the numerous other clans and cults having far more experience and time to refine their blood sorceries throughout the ages.

                            At that point, I think you could explain the reason the Tremere rose to power is because at the time their version of Thaumaturgy was something new. But now that they've been around for a millenia, the other blood mages have developed countermeasures for dealing with them.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Heavy Arms View Post
                              Yeah, and Thaumaturgy has been debated plenty. Whataboutism around Necromancy, or Disciplines in general? Not really a good way to question that justification.
                              I'll try to rephase, since you didn't quote the part I was really trying to hit on. Nyrufa was saying 'what about other disciplines' because he (again, seemingly incorrectly) thought Vamps Like Us had issue with vampires 'doing magic' and that all disciplines are seemingly magic. It wasn't a mechanical comment. In which case it seems entirely valid to question the consistency of his opinion.
                              If I said, 'I don't like apples because I don't like fruit, so I don't eat it or keep it in my house.' It would seem valid to counter with, 'but what about all those oranges, bananas, and strawberries I always see you eating and seeming to enjoy?'
                              Last edited by Monalfie; 06-11-2018, 07:15 PM.

                              Comment


                              • Heavy Arms
                                You made totally good points. And yeah, probably I was a bit extreme. I answered in an extreme way due to personal experience probably. I get now that it was excessive.
                                However I still don't think the thread was hijacked that much as it sounded and that's why I felt totally baffled by what I thought was an extreme statement in the first place, hence the extreme answer.

                                I get what you mean about whataboutism, yet comparison helps communication. So it's probably a matter of making comparisons with good intent and not "to win an argument" (which is whataboutism is for). Which I don't think was the case for many posts.
                                I can take the hint and get back on the debate, but fact is I don't think we were so much derailed (aside from the "thaumaturgy is broken/it isn't")

                                Because Vamps Like Us now I get more what you meant and I'm sorry if I was too extreme in my statement. Yet I disagree again (sorry!). The thread isn't about "why you hate the tremere" but "why people hate the tremere". So it's perfectly understandable that some people say why they do and people that don't get it (myself included) question the same people. The thread is itself made for questioning those people.
                                Honestly I don't think arguing about how nerfing thaumaturgy would be more interesting. I found Beckett's snarky comment about fanfiction much more useful to understand why some players and storytellers hate the Tremere.

                                Anyway here's my 2 cents on the blood magic discipline. As I see it Thaumaturgy has the unbalanced problem of being many disciplines under one umbrella.
                                To put it simply: Auspex is five different powers that let you do five different useful things. Protean too.
                                Some of the paths of Tham are basically disciplines that let you do five different things. A way to balance it would to make all of the paths do just a single thing at different levels of power. Example: lowering your generation is not a single power but a whole path.
                                1 dot: lower your generation of one step for ten minutes
                                2 dots: lower your generation of two steps for ten minutes
                                3 dots: lower your generation of two steps for thirty minutes
                                4 dots: lower your generation of three steps for thirty minutes
                                5 dots: lower your generation of three steps for one hour
                                It's just a random example put together in two minutes but I'm sure you get my drill
                                Again, sorry if I've been too rude


                                101 simple plot ideas for VtM

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X