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Why people hate the tremere?

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  • Originally posted by Nyrufa View Post
    Bluecho Okay, yeah, I can see the appeal of a setting where the Tremere are gradually losing their foothold in vampire society. But if we take that route, we have to consider that the other paths of Thaumaturgy are probably far older than the Tremere's version.

    What with the Tremere clan being only a little over 1,000 years old, with the numerous other clans and cults having far more experience and time to refine their blood sorceries throughout the ages.

    At that point, I think you could explain the reason the Tremere rose to power is because at the time their version of Thaumaturgy was something new. But now that they've been around for a millenia, the other blood mages have developed countermeasures for dealing with them.
    That, and because the Tremere WANTED it more. Setting aside that the Tremere were Mages prior to going full vampire (never go full vampire), they had to hit the ground running when they showed up on the Cainite scene. All the other blood sorcery using Clans had all of prehistory to ease into their praxis, and had large non-magician members to insulate them. The Tremere not only arrived late to this blood-drinking corpse party, they came in by pissing off a great deal of other vampires. Clan Tremere had to get to work FAST, because they otherwise wouldn't survive, let alone achieve a place at the table.

    So Clan Tremere spent their formative years, to borrow an academic phrase, "hustling their asses off". They struck deals, forged alliances, and devoted large portions of their membership to the singular task of magical research and development. They had to have as many mystic aces up their sleeve as possible yesterday. All the other blood sorcery traditions had been in no particular hurry to innovate, progressing their body of occult powers in a sedate, steady pace particular to groups whose interest in magic was a useful byproduct of their real goal: religious fervor.

    The Tremere are only "scientific" in the sense that they understand the value of reducibility; in order to achieve results faster, the Tremere tore out every aspect of their previous Hermetic praxis (and those of magical secrets bought or stolen from other groups) that wasn't absolutely necessary. Other blood sorcery groups spent a great deal of time exploring higher planes (the Assamites) or trying to commune with their gods (Followers of Set). These groups considered practical magic to be a secondary pursuit - perhaps at times even a distraction - from more sublime esoteric truths. The Tremere, meanwhile, had no time to navel gaze, as they might describe it. The Warlocks needed results, or they were going to be overrun.

    So by the time the other blood sorcery groups noticed, the Tremere had sped ahead of them in many ways, in their rush to carve a place for themselves in Cainite society. Part of that meant finding vampire Elders not immediately connected to major occult groups, extracting or buying whatever mystic secrets they could, and disposing of them afterwards. It meant hunting down threats to the monopoly the Tremere needed to have, lest their bargaining power be undercut.

    This is why modern Tremere are in such a precarious position. The other magical societies and Clans have taken the Tremere seriously now, and have spent centuries catching up. Not just developing their Paths and Rituals, but in moving into territories once held by the Tremere. The reason the Tremere oppose the inclusion of schismatic Assamites into the Camarilla so much is because the Assamite Sorcerers are direct competition. Competition that don't carry as many strings as the Tremere put on their own magic (and aren't as slimy as the Setites, though they too have been making steady inroads). It's also why the Tremere hate the Anarchs, who have four major camps of blood magicians developing, even if their numbers are small.

    The Tremere became complacent, and are now suffering for it. Therein lies drama.


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    • Originally posted by Thoth View Post
      It takes 170 XP of that to buy another complete path of thaumaturgy, never mind the requirements of learning rituals or upgrading other disciplines and stats.
      I'm either missing something or you have your math wrong. It takes 107 experience to get a Tremere from zero Thaumaturgy (an exceptionally unlikely starting place) to five dots in their first secondary path. It only takes 47 to buy a secondary path from zero to five. A more realistic scenario, is 82: the PC starts with Thaumaturgy 3, and raises it to 5 straight away and/or raises a secondary path in tandem, eventually completing that path. But, that's completely neglecting Auspex, Dominate, and/or any out-of-clan disciplines -- an exceedingly risky prospect.

      Pretty much everything else you said was spot on. If a Tremere PC gets enough experience packed on to really get to the "game-breaker" levels so oft-discussed here, they've probably gone through Hell and back to get there and have earned that power in a way few other PC's must. I've been there, done that in a way very few other players and ST's could attest -- played a Tremere through TC, with an ST who knew metaplot like the back of their hand and knew how to handle Tremere.

      If someone who wasn't party to that game looked at my character sheet, given sentiments on this thread they'd point and say "look! This is what I'm talking about! This is why Tremere are OP!". What they wouldn't see, is the four-odd years of Hell I went through, in-character and out-, six hours a night every week, wondering more often than not if that night was going to be the one I'd have to reroll, and having to play every scene (combat and social) flawlessly to ensure that didn't happen. I'm damn proud of that character; not because I managed after four years to make a nigh-unstoppable juggernaut to rival canon methuselahs, but because I made him survive.

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      • Originally posted by Thoth View Post
        Next we have to talk about the type of players who gravitate towards playing Tremere. Due to the large amount of rules, lore, backstory, and mechanics involved in playing a Tremere, this means the player is the type that is detail oriented, possibly a rules lawyer type who reads everything, and potentially the worst offense of all...… the type of player who tries to win before they ever step onto a battlefield. They win through manipulation and negation of everyone else's strengths. Think of Balish or Varys from GoT except immortal vampires with an entire clan of the same type of characters who are blood bound to fight together for a common goal. Okay to be fair that statement alone sounds OP, but you get what I am talking about.
        I...don't have an argument against this one. :P

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        • Originally posted by Thoth View Post
          For my two cents on the topic, I would say most people dislike Tremere because they have no idea how to handle them.
          Considering how prevalent this is... at what point is this actually a problem with STs and players, and really a problem with how the game has defined the Clan (both in lore and mechanics)?

          If I design a car that most people can't drive because they have no idea how to apply their normal driving experience to it without crashing it... it being unpopular is probably not the fault of all the people that don't want to relearn to drive just to buy my car.

          As I said way back in post #4 (again) a lot of people don't like the Tremere because they recognize that "handling" them is too much work for the pay off.

          The urge to blame the users instead of the design for something that's been a problem across vast numbers of groups, and over 25 years just baffles me. If it keeps being a problem... when do we stop blaming the people playing the game as it's written?

          Of course it feels unbalanced, but doesn't automatically mean it actually is.
          None of this means it isn't though.

          Next we have to talk about the type of players who gravitate towards playing Tremere.
          Or... how about we don't stereotype players? I know lots of people that would gravitate towards player Tremere if the Clan was better written, and happily play them when things are toned back in any number of ways.

          At the max xp per session of 5, playing once a week, in a year you would get 260 XP.
          Plus an additional max 3 XP for finishing stories within the chronicle, which can easily get that closer to 300 XP if you average one a month.

          ...never mind the requirements of learning rituals or upgrading other disciplines and stats.
          Learning rituals only requires access and time, not XP. One of the points against Thaumaturgy is access to Paths that let you get close (or close enough) to other Disciplines so that you don't need to buy them, and Secondary Paths are far cheaper than out-of-Clan Disciplines (with less in-game costs as well). And another point against Thaumaturgy is that starting with 10 dice in your activation rolls isn't hard, because Tremere roll Willpower for all Paths, and Intelligence + Occult for rituals. Compared to, say, Koldunism where each Path as a specified Attribute where trying to do everything with Paths can get much more expensive.

          In short, everyone hates the sneaky bastard whose powers are to change the rules, regardless of how screwed that character is in other areas.
          When did you demonstrate an actual presence of them being "screwed" in other areas?

          Originally posted by Monalfie View Post
          If I said, 'I don't like apples because I don't like fruit, so I don't eat it or keep it in my house.' It would seem valid to counter with, 'but what about all those oranges, bananas, and strawberries I always see you eating and seeming to enjoy?'
          I think that's... overly generous in interpretation.

          Originally posted by Ravnos View Post
          A way to balance it would to make all of the paths do just a single thing at different levels of power. Example: lowering your generation is not a single power but a whole path.
          If we're going in this direction, it's probably actually better to make Thaumaturgy completely ritual based. Requiem 1e has a supplement with a good set of rules for ritual design which can be for PCs making them IC, or just designing the ones you want to have available, as well as costs for different styles worked in, which is pretty easy to port over.

          All rituals makes Thaumaturgy more interesting because it's more of a trade as something unique. Rituals can be powerful, and multi-tools in aggregate, and all that, but at the in-game cost of time to activate. The weird stuff other Disciplines can't do is more valuable because "I can cast a ritual that takes an hour to disguise myself as someone else," is less valuable when Obfuscate can do it in seconds, so there's less, "I can do everything with Thaumaturgy," complaints because even if you theoretically could, you'll never do it as well when you have to act quickly.

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          • Originally posted by Heavy Arms View Post
            I think that's... overly generous in interpretation.
            How so? That seems pretty precisely the sort of comment Nyrufa was hitting on.
            My previous comment wasn't questioning what Thaumaturgy was capable of doing at lower levels, it was supposed to point out that outside of the 3 physical disciplines, virtually every other discipline they have access to can be described as a form of magic, or at least an awareness of magic. Casting aside one discipline and saying that wizard vampires don't exist is ridiculous.

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            • Originally posted by Thoth View Post
              Next we have to talk about the type of players who gravitate towards playing Tremere. Due to the large amount of rules, lore, backstory, and mechanics involved in playing a Tremere, this means the player is the type that is detail oriented, possibly a rules lawyer type who reads everything, and potentially the worst offense of all...… the type of player who tries to win before they ever step onto a battlefield. They win through manipulation and negation of everyone else's strengths.

              So your interpretation of the "worst offense of all" is being a good strategist in real life?

              Unless you're talking about using out of character knowledge, at which point it becomes a problem.

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              • Originally posted by Heavy Arms View Post

                Considering how prevalent this is... at what point is this actually a problem with STs and players, and really a problem with how the game has defined the Clan (both in lore and mechanics)?
                I think the reason people are bringing up the ST and players more than game design is that in a sense it is their own fault. Not to say that the game design doesn't have issues such as the original clan weakness for the Tremere and that they were the ONLY ones with Blood Sorcery. As time has gone on though, those issues have been worked on. V20 gave them a weakness that really bites and the introduction over the years of other Blood Sorceries have broken their monopoly on it. Yes there are additional problems with them I'll admit but most of the major ones have been handled.

                Now back to my comment about how it is the ST and players' fault is that the book does stress that learning new Paths and Rituals is difficult and you have to find that knowledge first. Some groups however eschew that and just grab whatever powers they want as long as they have the experience points for it. That there is the problem and it isn't just Thaumaturgy that has that, those same groups often let them pick up any Discipline they want as well without finding a teacher despite the book clearly saying that the character needs to find someone willing to teach them first (with the possible exception of the Physical Disciplines). I find it unfair to say it's the system's fault that something is unbalanced when people ignore the balancing rules.

                EDIT: Forgot to add that even having said that, I do believe that it needs to balance things out a lot more to fix the issues that still remain. An example being how the primary suggested Path for Tremere Path of Blood is stupidly powerful
                Last edited by stanlemon; 06-12-2018, 01:36 AM.

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                • Originally posted by Nyrufa View Post
                  Heavy Arms
                  First of all, the Tremere had a monopoly on one of the most versatile (and powerful) disciplines in the setting. They didn't share their secrets with anybody, and if you somehow got your hands on it, they'd kill your ass at the first opportunity. The Tremere were a clan of power gamers who didn't want anybody else to be power gamers too.
                  But in later editions, they changed it to practically everybody having their own branches of Thaumaturgy, and now instead of the Tremere becoming some kind of over powered threat, they've become a pointless edition to the game. The entire reason the Tremere got accepted into the Camarilla is because they had knowledge on a subject nobody else knew about, and they aimed to keep it that way. But now anybody can get their hands on it, and suddenly it's become "Why do we still need you guys, again?"
                  It seems a little wierd to argue the issue with Tremere is both that they have all Thaumaturgy, then that they don't; but I think I understand both of those issues from an in game and out-of-game perspective.

                  as Bluecho mentioned; no longer being the only source of Magic is great for story.
                  I also think that most Camarilla at least will still head to the reliable Pillar that is the Tremere. They're trusted in their level of untrustworthiness, you'll get screwed on price but not accidentally finding yourself worshipping a Snake God.

                  I think the historical reason that they rose to power was that they weere collecting copies of everyone else's blood sorceries and making a unified method of ritualism that they could spread to their clan. They are the only "Clan" With the power "in clan" not some wierd as F Bloodline with debilitating weaknesses (Like the Set-Witches of Echidna) and they made it easier to share the power (Even if we're just talking about the basics) with the rest of the clan.
                  You want a simple ritual, you can find a mentor, no spirit-quest or proving devotion - just a pretty meddling task compared to what other horders of Sorcery would charge.

                  Also - They sold themselves out for being on the inside of the Camarilla - we will use our powers for a price, they would have trade deals with so many elders wanting magic.

                  Originally posted by Nyrufa View Post
                  The Tremere are unnecessary as a clan. They would have made far more sense to be their own faction of magically inclined vampires, like the Circle of the Crone from Requiem.
                  If V:TM was being built from scratch with a lot of the lore that we have, I'd probably agree with you. It makes sense now. But it wasn't a thought in their head at the time, and certainly not for the clan of "I want to bring Ars Magica into this new game we're making"


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                  • Originally posted by Nyrufa View Post

                    Except that's not really the case when you consider how the Assamites broke their curse. Their signature discipline makes them especially vulnerable to blood curses, and one of the first things Ur-Shulgi did after waking up from who knows how long of Torpor was break the Tremere's curse on his clan. I'm not entirely clear on the details, since some sources tell me that he broke the curse effortlessly with a flex of his will, and others told me he needed a week to set up a ritual to do it.

                    But the point stands that he only needed a week to study a recently (from his perspective) applied curse and solve a way to lift it after he had been out of commission for centuries.

                    The difference between mystical Thaumaturgy and scientific Thaumaturgy is purely flavor text and nothing more.


                    The Tremere are unnecessary as a clan. They would have made far more sense to be their own faction of magically inclined vampires, like the Circle of the Crone from Requiem.
                    There are a few sides to this. Firstly, the Assamitr Sorcerers didn't fully want to bteak the curse, because it was keeping the Warriors in check. Its speculated that they might have known how, and didn't, or gotten close but held back from finally doing it, but then Ur-Shulgi woke up and added his power to it and it was done.

                    Being that Ur-Shulgi is the most powerful blood mage on the planet, far beyond even Tremere, Im not sure this is particularly surprizing.

                    However, my personal belief is that Ur-Shulgi is actually a Baali, not Assamite, and what he actually did was curse the Clan a third time, redoing the original Baali curse.

                    As far as the mechanical differences, at least in past editions is that the Tremere could potentially learn all other forms of Thaumaturgy, boil it down to the basics and create a Path for it In Clan. For a Setite blood sorcerer, learning Assamite Thaumaturgy was no different than learning say Necromancy, where they had to start from scratch and Out of Clan. There was even some leeway for Tremere to learn Necromancy as Thaumaturgy, sort of.


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                    • Originally posted by Ravnos View Post
                      I found Beckett's snarky comment about fanfiction much more useful to understand why some players and storytellers hate the Tremere.
                      ???
                      It probably was not intended as snarky.
                      Last edited by Beckett; 06-12-2018, 05:29 AM.


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                      • Originally posted by Heavy Arms View Post
                        Considering how prevalent this is... at what point is this actually a problem with STs and players, and really a problem with how the game has defined the Clan (both in lore and mechanics)?

                        If I design a car that most people can't drive because they have no idea how to apply their normal driving experience to it without crashing it... it being unpopular is probably not the fault of all the people that don't want to relearn to drive just to buy my car.

                        As I said way back in post #4 (again) a lot of people don't like the Tremere because they recognize that "handling" them is too much work for the pay off.

                        The urge to blame the users instead of the design for something that's been a problem across vast numbers of groups, and over 25 years just baffles me. If it keeps being a problem... when do we stop blaming the people playing the game as it's written?

                        It is a catch 22 because in game design. If you make a character for every type of player, eventually people will get stuck in a game with character types they can't deal with, be it psychologically or mechanically. So do you alienate a portion of the gaming population or do you expect them to figure it out for themselves all while complaining about game design? Unfortunately there is no right answer to this particular issue.

                        And the reason I know this is not exclusively mechanics driven issue is because I have seen the same problems turn up in white wolf games, TSR AD&D games (yes i'm old), Lone Wolf Adventure games, etc. When you change the rules, change the genres, change the time period, and even change game companies, but you still have the same problems, that means that it is a player interaction problem more than anything else. Seriously if you want to see this issue really take form, take a look at old forum posts about why so many people hated Eclipse type exalts in 2nd Edition Exalted.

                        If you give all the goodies to an unimaginative player/ST, not much will come of it. Give the equivalent of a multi-tool, a roll of duct tape, and a smart phone to a truly creative or devious player, the result will be a "hold my root beer" and a few turns later an empire has been single handedly destroyed or brought into being, while all the other players are trying to figure out how they did that.

                        In gaming you will always have a mixed bag of players. Some are really devious, some are just laid back, some are for lack of a better word.... simplistic. There is nothing wrong with any of that, but at the same time it can be utterly painful to see someone trying to play a character they have no real ability to portray. This aspect also has the reverse, where a player and character fit each other so well that they become more akin to a force of nature rather than a simple character.

                        In a way it is a lot like a game of no limit poker. The rules are straight forward enough, but the real game is what goes out outside of the cards. All the betting, the careful reading of body language and micro expressions, the carefully timed taunt or boast, etc. Being an over powered Tremere is the same sort of scenario. Except if we follow through on the analogy, then everyone hating on Tremere would be complaining about how poker is too problematic and everyone should just play "go fish" instead.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Thoth View Post
                          It is a catch 22 because in game design. If you make a character for every type of player, eventually people will get stuck in a game with character types they can't deal with, be it psychologically or mechanically. So do you alienate a portion of the gaming population or do you expect them to figure it out for themselves all while complaining about game design? Unfortunately there is no right answer to this particular issue.
                          The isn't a Catch-22, because these aren't "rules" one has to abide by.

                          You're always going to alienate a portion of the gaming population, you can't fix that regardless. The gaming population isn't unified in its desires.

                          You also don't have to leave it to the players to figure things out for themselves, you can do things like explain stuff in your writing.

                          Even if there isn't a single right answer, there are obviously better answers. Exalted 3e alienated a portion of their potential player base by keeping the mechanically questionable character creation point/XP differences/training times stuff, but they at least recognized the need to explain it in the text enough that people didn't have to just figure it out themselves. They didn't have to pick between these things.

                          And the reason I know this is not exclusively mechanics driven issue...
                          You have... read this thread with the significant number of people (including myself) that feel the issue is design driven, but not mechanics driven... right?

                          Seriously if you want to see this issue really take form, take a look at old forum posts about why so many people hated Eclipse type exalts in 2nd Edition Exalted.
                          You mean that thing they fixed with better mechanics in the next edition? This seems to prove that the game(s), not the players are the problem here.

                          In a way it is a lot like a game of no limit poker. The rules are straight forward enough, but the real game is what goes out outside of the cards. All the betting, the careful reading of body language and micro expressions, the carefully timed taunt or boast, etc. Being an over powered Tremere is the same sort of scenario. Except if we follow through on the analogy, then everyone hating on Tremere would be complaining about how poker is too problematic and everyone should just play "go fish" instead.
                          Except not.

                          More accurate to your analogy, would be some strange game where the dealer, and most of the players think they're playing Go Fish, but then a player sits down in the Poker seat, and now everyone has to deal with Poker in their Go Fish game. And unsurprisingly... people don't like that.

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                          • Originally posted by Heavy Arms View Post
                            You have... read this thread with the significant number of people (including myself) that feel the issue is design driven, but not mechanics driven... right?

                            And after reading all of that, I am saying that it is incorrect or at least not the whole issue. Just because a lot of people say something, it doesn't make it true. It just means that the narrative they are trying to sell is more agreeable to them. Speaking of which why are you so threatened by the concept that all that is required is a little extra effort on the part of the ST or players?

                            Could the rules have better wording, there is always the possibility of refinement. But at the same time that applies to every single player and ST who just couldn't be bothered to read the rules or pay attention. If you have a Player or ST who is naturally better at subterfuge or just being sneaky, then you just have to deal with it. There is no way for the game design to soften that sort of blow to the other players or STs egos.

                            From my perspective a lot of this boils down to the fact that some people just can't be bothered to learn how to counter balance things. They want a cookie cutter mechanical reason so they just point to it and go "no". There is no mechanic that states that the Tremere Pyramid affects nightly life for a Tremere, so most STs don't bother using that as a tool to reign in Tremere players. But if they read the fluff, then they know its an option.

                            Its just easier to blame game design when they can't be asked to think things through or read a few more pages. Though to be fair if the rules or fluff that counter balances such things are in books you can't afford to get, that is a different story, but also not what we are talking about here.

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                            • Originally posted by Ravnos View Post
                              Because Vamps Like Us now I get more what you meant and I'm sorry if I was too extreme in my statement. Yet I disagree again (sorry!). The thread isn't about "why you hate the tremere" but "why people hate the tremere". So it's perfectly understandable that some people say why they do and people that don't get it (myself included) question the same people. The thread is itself made for questioning those people.
                              Honestly I don't think arguing about how nerfing thaumaturgy would be more interesting. I found Beckett's snarky comment about fanfiction much more useful to understand why some players and storytellers hate the Tremere.

                              I wasn't offended, I actually got a few laughs at the posters defending the clan and discipline. It's really just people who want to have broken and overly powerful things, and you know what? That's perfectly fine, some players want to play 4th generation vampires with a hundred discipline dots, and some want to play humans trying to take down vampires, there is room for all. I don't get offended from message board posts.

                              I had a player who wanted his advanced Auspex to protect him the way the Obfuscate power does from others telepathy, but while Obfuscate was hiding the mind Auspex was shielding it from telepathic contact. Another player wanted a sixth dot of Fortitude to give him flesh of Marble since he argued it was more toughening and fortitude like than shape changing. I said yes to both, but I bet plenty of story tellers wouldn't I'm sure and they could make arguments but Justin's Ventrue would still have flesh of Marble from fortitude level 6 in my game (not that we still play that game).

                              Just like blood magic is for casters, and shape changing is for werewolves in my current game. I actually thought about not having clans in the current game. Just humans, werewolves mages and vampires all using VTM (no Werewolf the Apocalypse or Mage systems) and it would have worked just as well for us. The people I've been gaming with for over 3 decades love to play and not run games, I get bored with having 1 character for years, it works for us.

                              That said there is a need to compensate for the bad stuff like the Tremere and Celerity, and many many other things. The system was more mood than rules and I bet because of that this game has more house rules than just about any other. Giving an open ended number of powers to 1 discipline, at great discount I might add, while everything else was rigid is something in retrospect I bet they would take back if they could. It's bad design.

                              Trying to blame the story teller for bad game design is laughable. If I say I'm adding in Thaumaturgy back in but the exp cost for the discipline and paths are doubled and rituals cost 4 times the level in exp to learn that is balancing (and quite fair) but it still won't fit my current setting so no need for it at all.

                              Maybe I will add it back in by the time we play DA20. I do want that world to be full to the brim with magic mages, fay, gods, oracles, mummies. I guess the thread quoting me kept me thinking about the discipline enough to balance the exp point cost. Feel free to improve your games with the new required exp to raise, starting dots required, and freebie points needed doubled; rituals level X4 exp. Your welcome White Wolf

                              And I rambled quite a bit so let me reiterate Ravnos, I was never offended, I like your posts.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Thoth View Post
                                And after reading all of that, I am saying that it is incorrect or at least not the whole issue.
                                Any yet you've done nothing to refute any of it, you've just said that it's not the game's fault.

                                Just because a lot of people say something, it doesn't make it true.
                                It does, however, highlight the strawman that is your argument.

                                It just means that the narrative they are trying to sell is more agreeable to them. Speaking of which why are you so threatened by the concept that all that is required is a little extra effort on the part of the ST or players?
                                Why do you insist on a narrative that comes down to, "people that hate the Tremere are just too stupid, too lazy, and too bad at role-playing to deserve to have their opinions listened too," because you seem pretty damned threatened by the idea that the Tremere might just be bad game design as written to snidely go after other people for disliking them.

                                Could the rules have better wording, there is always the possibility of refinement.
                                And here you're deflecting from the point that it's not just a mechanical issue. The way the books present the Clan structure, which you need to implement to "handle" the mechanical issues, requires a very specific playstyle which turns STs off from the Clan. This can't simply be "refined" away, it would require a complete retcon of the Clan structure as presented.

                                But at the same time that applies to every single player and ST who just couldn't be bothered to read the rules or pay attention.
                                And here we are back to, "complaints about the Tremere all come from lazy assholes that don't read the books." Naming yourself after a god of wisdom doesn't magically make your posts reasonable or valuable.

                                There is no way for the game design to soften that sort of blow to the other players or STs egos.
                                Oh, and they're whiny eogtistical babies too...

                                Man, you really seem to have issues with hating on real people for disliking a thing in a game.

                                From my perspective a lot of this boils down to the fact that some people just can't be bothered to learn how to counter balance things.
                                Or, you know we see the need to counter balance, and hate the fact that the game force that need it when it's unnecessary. The "wizard vampires" could have easily been done without the need to have so much extra work to counter balance all the imbalance put in their corner. It's basically air-breathing mermaid level bad design being touted as good and people being bad for not liking it.

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