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Why people hate the tremere?

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  • I am curious to people who don't like the Tremere, do you think the players that you had problems with would have been less of a problem or not a problem at all if they were playing another clan? It seems like if "powergaming" is the issue then Tremere don't have a lot to do with that, considering combinations of simple physical disciplines can make you punch/claw 6 times per turn for more aggravated damage than anything in the game has health levels.

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    • Originally posted by Zanos View Post
      I am curious to people who don't like the Tremere, do you think the players that you had problems with...
      This presumes we don't like the Tremere because of problem players, which isn't the case for at least a significant portion of us.

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      • If I may throw my hat in the ring, with an alternative that I think would appeal to those of you fearing the Tremere power-gamers:

        I played a tremere in a LARP for 3 years, where they had a wonderful system for Thaumaturgy. They restricted how many dots you could have in the discipline, as well as what level of rituals you could have, based on your clan status. This status could only be earned through play, not bought at character creation.

        You also COULD NOT spend XP to learn paths or rituals without a teacher who already knew the path. It made Thaumaturgy incredibly prescious, and the economy of magical knowledge became very real.

        It created a connection between mechanics and flavor of the Tremere as a pyramid cult that felt very right.


        Furthermore, I believe Carthage should be destroyed.

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        • Originally posted by pang4 View Post
          If I may throw my hat in the ring, with an alternative that I think would appeal to those of you fearing the Tremere power-gamers:

          I played a tremere in a LARP for 3 years, where they had a wonderful system for Thaumaturgy. They restricted how many dots you could have in the discipline, as well as what level of rituals you could have, based on your clan status. This status could only be earned through play, not bought at character creation.

          You also COULD NOT spend XP to learn paths or rituals without a teacher who already knew the path. It made Thaumaturgy incredibly prescious, and the economy of magical knowledge became very real.

          It created a connection between mechanics and flavor of the Tremere as a pyramid cult that felt very right.
          Was this based on Clan Prestige found in Guide to the Camarilla or on a homebrewed "Tremere Status"? If homebrewed, was it a Background or a Merit?





          English is not my native language, so i apologize for errors in grammar or spelling.

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          • @cadmiumcadamium:

            Since it was a LARP, they built theit own aystem based on the circles of mystery within the clan.

            I would probably make it an "Other Trait" called "Circle of Mystery", which you raise through devotion, loyalty and results to the clan. Once you top out your "Apprentice" stat, you can work on your "Magister" stat, and so forth.

            A normal punishment within the Clan is stripping rank from its members, which would with this system create a real problem for players who display independent thought.


            EDIT: You could also steal the Renown system from Werewolf: the Apocalypse, and modify that.


            Furthermore, I believe Carthage should be destroyed.

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            • Originally posted by Heavy Arms View Post

              This presumes we don't like the Tremere because of problem players, which isn't the case for at least a significant portion of us.


              I once heard about a LARP where the players who were part of the Tremere would immediately seize any Caitiff they came across and use their Thaumaturgy to determine what clan they belonged to. It was kind of insulting to any player who devoted the time and energy to creating a Caitiff.
              Last edited by Nyrufa; 06-13-2018, 08:27 AM.

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              • Originally posted by Vamps Like Us View Post
                I wasn't offended, I actually got a few laughs at the posters defending the clan and discipline. It's really just people who want to have broken and overly powerful things, and you know what? That's perfectly fine, some players want to play 4th generation vampires with a hundred discipline dots, and some want to play humans trying to take down vampires, there is room for all. I don't get offended from message board posts.
                A very odd description of people who are disagreeing with you. You keep throwing out these awkward statements about those saying Thaumaturgy as written isn't that bad (especially if given certain in-game oversight) as 'just loving Tremere' and are now apparently power gamers. What works for you works for you, baby. But people can talk about it without such motives.

                And I only really note this because you've said or implied it several times now.
                Last edited by Monalfie; 06-13-2018, 12:02 PM.

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                • Originally posted by Thoth View Post
                  For my two cents on the topic, I would say most people dislike Tremere because they have no idea how to handle them.

                  Most STs don't really know how to run the clan weakness without making it a plot point, rather than a nightly mechanic. Further more I have seen a lot of STs completely glaze over the fact that the Tremere clan is tightly knit to the point that the clans needs often override the needs or desires of the neonates. If a Brujah leader gets a wild idea, the younger brujah are almost expected to argue it. When a Tremere leader decides to run an "experiment" do you think they consult the tremere neonates about their choice on participating or being a lab rat?

                  Then please enlighten us as to how you can handle the Tremere weakness without making it a specific plot point. Because their weakness is being more vulnerable to blood bonds, and unless the player is actively going around snacking on other vampires, this weakness has no reason to appear throughout most games.


                  As for the subject of ST's glazing over the fact the Tremere are tight knit, I would like to remind you about the existence of the Ventrue.

                  You know, the clan of blue blooded aristocrats who are so obsessed about their ancestral lineages that they train neonates to recite every member that came before them?

                  The clan who is under the assumption that the world still adheres to a strict class system and that refusing to kiss their ring in public is some manner of grievous insult?

                  Like the Tremere, the Ventrue are all about power, but unlike the Tremere, the Ventrue manage to portray it without being absolutely broken by it.

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                  • Originally posted by Nyrufa View Post


                    Then please enlighten us as to how you can handle the Tremere weakness without making it a specific plot point. Because their weakness is being more vulnerable to blood bonds, and unless the player is actively going around snacking on other vampires, this weakness has no reason to appear throughout most games.
                    You could say that about several clan weaknesses. It's easy to gloss over say the Ventrue or Giovanni weaknesses as well. Frankly in games I run or play in the V20 Tremere weakness is one hell of a weakness. The reason why is a lot of the vampire political machinations often involve trying to form blood bonds.

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                    • Originally posted by stanlemon View Post

                      You could say that about several clan weaknesses. It's easy to gloss over say the Ventrue or Giovanni weaknesses as well. Frankly in games I run or play in the V20 Tremere weakness is one hell of a weakness. The reason why is a lot of the vampire political machinations often involve trying to form blood bonds.


                      Uhhh, no, it isn't. The Giovanni inflict (lethal) damage while feeding, which makes it much harder to keep your vessel alive, and the Ventrue can only acquire sustenance from a very specific type of mortal. And depending on how exotic this type of mortal is, it can require the Ventrue to implement some very complex methods for ensuring that they have a supply on hand. Taking down a Ventrue could be incredibly easy by simply targeting their food supply!


                      Tremere weakness only comes into play when you are specifically feeding on the blood of vampires, which only becomes a common occurrence if you are running a Sabbat campaign. Drinking vampire blood is typically considered a No-No in Camarilla territory!
                      Last edited by Nyrufa; 06-13-2018, 12:27 PM.

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                      • Personally I have always quite enjoyed the idea that everybody hates the Tremere and have made sure to include that exact sentiment in my games. Playing with this ingrained hatred and distrust both in game and OOC is a really useful tool to construct story-lines, plots and characters that in the 15 years I have been running games have contributed to the Tremere being one of my favourite clans.

                        As for their clan weakness, it can be as problematic as the ST wants it to be just like every other weakness... every single Tremere PC that has played in one of my games has begun with some sort of bloodbond to a sire or lover or enemy of some description or has ended up being thrust into plots where the bond becomes a necessary evil - present them with a staked vampire as their only form of sustenance, have them fall prey to a seductress (or seductor) who encourages the sharing of blood - or simply make sure they are forced to bind themselves to a particularly problematic Prince.

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                        • Originally posted by Nyrufa View Post



                          Uhhh, no, it isn't. The Giovanni inflict (lethal) damage while feeding, which makes it much harder to keep your vessel alive, and the Ventrue can only acquire sustenance from a very specific type of mortal. And depending on how exotic this type of mortal is, it can require the Ventrue to implement some very complex methods for ensuring that they have a supply on hand. Taking down a Ventrue could be incredibly easy by simply targeting their food supply!


                          Tremere weakness only comes into play when you are specifically feeding on the blood of vampires, which only becomes a common occurrence if you are running a Sabbat campaign. Drinking vampire blood is typically considered a No-No in Camarilla territory!

                          It's almost as if that makes the Ventrue and Giovanni's weaknesses plot points. Correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't that one of your complaints about the Tremere weakness? The reason I bring this up is that there are multiple groups the gloss over feeding and as a consequence these weaknesses also get glossed over as a consequence. So if your group(s) don't utilize blood bonds very much in your campaigns then of course it won't be much of a weakness. However groups like the ones I'm usually a part of us blood bonds significantly as part of vampire politics because it is a very powerful tool and as such is very dangerous for Tremere. Ultimately, it is unfair to to say that the weakness is pointless just because your play style doesn't take advantage of it.

                          As for their clan weakness, it can be as problematic as the ST wants it to be just like every other weakness... every single Tremere PC that has played in one of my games has begun with some sort of bloodbond to a sire or lover or enemy of some description or has ended up being thrust into plots where the bond becomes a necessary evil - present them with a staked vampire as their only form of sustenance, have them fall prey to a seductress (or seductor) who encourages the sharing of blood - or simply make sure they are forced to bind themselves to a particularly problematic Prince.
                          Jeevesosiris makes my point exactly here, a clan weakness is dependent on the group

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                          • Originally posted by Monalfie View Post
                            A very odd description of people who are disagreeing with you. You keep throwing out these awkward statements about those saying Thaumaturgy as written isn't that bad (especially if given certain in-game oversight) as 'just loving Tremere' and are now apparently power gamers. What works for you works for you, baby. But people can talk about it without such motives.

                            And I only really note this because you've said or implied it several times now.
                            Because they don't think the broken discipline is broken. As I said I've house ruled lots of things not just Thaumaturgy. The arguments I was referring to

                            "It's the story tellers fault" and your right if the ST does not change it, it's his fault for it staying broken.

                            "I worked really hard and risked my unlife for all those free rituals, and spent the lowered path cost to raise the paths that are often disciplines unto themselves." Don't all your players work hard to accomplish goals? It's a game with Vampires, isn't everyone's lives at risk doing their power grabs? If the Brujah and Ventrue join forces and work really hard to take out a whole werewolf pack, when they complete the task do they get the second or maybe 4th Protean dot for free by burning herbs and communing with the lands ancestors for a bit holding a bone of a werewolf chief they defeated? It took months to do and they almost died several times so it's balanced I suppose.

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                            • Originally posted by Vamps Like Us View Post
                              Because they don't think the broken discipline is broken. As I said I've house ruled lots of things not just Thaumaturgy.
                              Which doesn't make them power gamers or that they love Tremere. They just disagree with you. Whatever works at your table works, I don't truly care how you conduct your games. But I take issue with the statements implying those who disagree with your method are the above.
                              That said, most of them (Stanelmon, Theodrim, and Beckett at least at a glance) have just disagreed to the extent they think it is broken and how to deal with those issues.

                              The arguments I was referring to
                              "It's the story tellers fault" and your right if the ST does not change it, it's his fault for it staying broken.
                              Which, again, doesn't equate to being a power gamer or loving Tremere. You just throw out Thaumaturgy. They think it is better to use the fluff as written to manage it.

                              "I worked really hard and risked my unlife for all those free rituals, and spent the lowered path cost to raise the paths that are often disciplines unto themselves." Don't all your players work hard to accomplish goals? It's a game with Vampires, isn't everyone's lives at risk doing their power grabs? If the Brujah and Ventrue join forces and work really hard to take out a whole werewolf pack, when they complete the task do they get the second or maybe 4th Protean dot for free by burning herbs and communing with the lands ancestors for a bit holding a bone of a werewolf chief they defeated? It took months to do and they almost died several times so it's balanced I suppose.
                              I'm not sure who made that argument, if you want to remind me?

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                              • Originally posted by stanlemon View Post


                                It's almost as if that makes the Ventrue and Giovanni's weaknesses plot points. Correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't that one of your complaints about the Tremere weakness? The reason I bring this up is that there are multiple groups the gloss over feeding and as a consequence these weaknesses also get glossed over as a consequence.

                                You're going to have to try harder to clarify yourself here. How the hell does inflicting increasingly lethal damage every time you feed have to revolve around a plot hook? One key point of staving off the Beast is to not go around killing innocent people, which the other clans manage to accomplish by limiting their blood consumption. But a Giovanni inflicts (I want to say) twice as much damage to acquire the same amount of blood, which means if they don't want a mountain of corpses behind them (which would be ironic), then they'd have to subsist on half as much blood OR twice as many vessels as every other clan.


                                I know what you mean about players glossing over the feeding aspect, because I've seen Story Tellers who just ask the players how much blood they want to drink from them and how many points they earn. But that doesn't change the fact that all vampires need blood to survive, and that Giovanni player is going to have to feed multiple times throughout the session if they wish to keep up their strength. That can really rack up a death toll if you aren't careful, thus leading to a host of problems not just for them, but for the rest of the city's kindred population.


                                The Giovanni weakness doesn't have to be a plot hook. It's a prominent and recurring drawback to being a member of clan Giovanni, which they have to deal with multiple times every single night.

                                The Tremere Weakness DOES have to be a plot hook, because the Tremere are under no compulsion to drink the blood of their fellow vampires (initiation ritual being the exception). When they choose to do so, it is exactly that; a conscious choice that the Tremere makes to indulge in the vitae of other kindred.

                                In all cases that I've heard of, most vampires including the Tremere reserve a full scale blood bond to be used as a form of punishment. It's not something those in power just throw around because they feel like it. That kind of bull shit is what caused the first two Anarch revolts to happen in the first place. That means if your Tremere player finds themselves being forced into a blood bond that they didn't have at character generation, they screwed up somewhere during the course of the story and their superiors decided to bind them as a means of punishing their actions.

                                Which is far more likely to be some kind of plot hook than drawing attention to yourself just because you took a couple more points of blood than you intended.
                                Last edited by Nyrufa; 06-13-2018, 04:53 PM.

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