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  • LokiRavenSpeak
    started a topic Why people hate the tremere?

    Why people hate the tremere?

    In a previous thread about what canon thing people hate, clan tremere just keep poping up over and over.

    Why is that? I mean in theory they are awesome "Vampire mages". I have never got bore playing a tremere with tons of power to choose.

    However i started playing vampire with V20 so maybe im missing something from previous editions. So my question is Why players hate the tremere clan?


  • Bluecho
    replied
    Originally posted by DuncanD View Post
    I think people hate the Tremere in small part because of the lore and mostly because thaumaturgy allows them to be the most flexible of clans where disciplines are concerned. And therefore to have quite a bit of power.

    I currently play a Tremere PC and my ST forestalled any willing or unwilling powergaming on my part with a couple of simple rules:
    -no discipline above 3 dots on chargen
    -Thaumaturgy primary path to be cleared by ST and any secondary path is to be learned in-game after managing to get a source for it (teacher or book).
    -only 2 rituals to be known at the start and then same rule as for paths

    There are other subtleties but the main thing is not to allow the Tremere libraries to be an open bar. If you want to know a path or ritual, you have to find a source for it, pay for it and have the time to learn it in order to use it without supervisionand or a source book.

    Of course this is in a game where you start as a Neonate or a pretty young vampire.
    Yeah, I mean, of course a Tremere character is going to be overpowered if they can learn any form of blood magic they want, quickly and easily.

    This is why the fluff of Masquerade tended to reiterate the point that blood sorcery is hard, and its knowledge esoteric, complex, and jealously guarded. Sure, Clan Tremere may have theoretical access to all Paths, but that doesn't mean an individual Tremere can learn all of them. The party line of "the Pyramid takes care of its own" aside, the Tremere are just as paranoid, distrusting, and miserly in regards to their Clan mates as any other vampire. In a Clan where prestige and advancement are predicated on thaumaturgical skill, it's no wonder Tremere with knowledge hoard it, and keep as much of it out of the hands of younger Tremere as possible. Blood Magic: Secrets of Thaumaturgy made a point of explicitly saying that there's a disconnect between the "common" Paths, and the rarer, more powerful ones. That older Tremere only teach common Paths, while keeping the best stuff for themselves. None of the Clan's elders want to give their inferiors the rope they use to hang them with, and blood sorcery is a long, strong, potent rope.

    Not to mention blood magic is meant to be more scholarly than the more intuitive, experience-driven Disciplines (with some exceptions). Characters are meant to be sitting in their studies, reading old tomes in dead languages, for even the slightest advantage. That's how Hermetic magic works, and vampire Hermetics ought to be no different. Learning a Ritual takes weeks or months in-game, according to the books. Paths come out to a similar time and effort advancement.

    So if a Storyteller is ripping their hair out, because the Tremere player is spell casting circles around any challenge, the Storyteller must remember that THEY allowed this situation to happen. THEY permitted the acquisition of power. THEY put no restrictions on blood magic, or even just made it difficult to obtain, when it comes to the potent stuff. THEY didn't consider how powerful magic might be subject to regulation, hoarding, and scarcity. It's a problem of THEIR own making.

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  • DuncanD
    replied
    I think people hate the Tremere in small part because of the lore and mostly because thaumaturgy allows them to be the most flexible of clans where disciplines are concerned. And therefore to have quite a bit of power.

    I currently play a Tremere PC and my ST forestalled any willing or unwilling powergaming on my part with a couple of simple rules:
    -no discipline above 3 dots on chargen
    -Thaumaturgy primary path to be cleared by ST and any secondary path is to be learned in-game after managing to get a source for it (teacher or book).
    -only 2 rituals to be known at the start and then same rule as for paths

    There are other subtleties but the main thing is not to allow the Tremere libraries to be an open bar. If you want to know a path or ritual, you have to find a source for it, pay for it and have the time to learn it in order to use it without supervisionand or a source book.

    Of course this is in a game where you start as a Neonate or a pretty young vampire.

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  • 11twiggins
    replied
    Thaumaturgy is mostly OP when STs give free dots in it for no reason.

    Treat Paths like Disciplines; that is, good RP and a downtime of study will only earn you a free dot in a Path is it would be normal at your table for it to earn you a Discipline.

    SO many STs wonder why the Tremere PC is overpowered, and when I ask them questions I find that they got a free dot in a secondary path or two at character generation. Path points aren't quite as powerful as Disciplines, but it's still a significant boost at character gen and it saves EXP.

    Beyond that, remember that most Blood Magic powers cost blood points upon usage, say no to Rituals which you think are OP, and say no to Paths which are OP in that precise setting. Mercury might be fine in some games and game-ruining in others. Same goes for Lure of Flames; context is key.

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  • Divid
    replied
    Originally posted by Viben View Post

    I will be ST for a group soon and one of players is Tremere. Could you tell me what are those paths with one or two dots that could make char "incredible overpowered" so I can keep an eye on those and ban them before we start chronicle (if they are really that strong).
    As a long time player in a coterie consisting exclusively of Tremere I can tell you to watch out for two paths especially (and double in the long run): Path of Conjuring (to quote my coplayer: "I summon 60kg of chlorine trifluoride " [incredibly hot, self incinerating chemical that even burns asbestos, spitting out acidic vapor]) and Path of Focused Mind (same player, never failed a roll since he got that darn thing)... And, like you already said, one should never underestimate the power of Path of Blood, not just in combination. Our Storyteller first nerved Path of Blood 3, because it opened too many doors for mischievous players...
    PS: Based on what kind of quests you want to present to your players it might be good to take a good look at what rituals the Tremere wants to have. Eyes of the past (3) kills almost every detective-, as well as drasticly changes intrigue plots.
    Last edited by Divid; 08-21-2018, 06:06 PM.

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  • Alucard
    replied
    Originally posted by The Gentleman Gamer View Post
    Oh, and I typically cut out most of the secondary paths of Thaumaturgy. If I don't feel like a power fits into my Vampire game thematically (weather control, technomancy etc.) then it becomes unavailable.
    How could weather control ever be non thematic?
    Bram Stoker's Dracula knew it!
    Last edited by Alucard; 08-12-2018, 12:00 AM. Reason: Spelling

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  • Viben
    replied
    Originally posted by Inertial Frame View Post

    I preface this with a note on the character's apparent build: he's a melee/thrown weapons primary that mostly uses Movement of the Mind to shape his attacks and retrieve his weapons.

    With that caveat, if he had paid some attention, he could have Path of Mars (one, two, and four are all amazing for him), Conjuring (two would make him never need to actually carry melee weapons), and Elemental Mastery (one alone is worth buying for him). We don't have access to Rites of the Blood, but we do have virtually all the previous books from earlier editions, so Focused Mind and Mastery of the Mortal Shell are both technically on the table, as well. He could be a serious combat monster with little trouble at 4xp per dot for each of those paths...

    Thanks. There is quite a lot of Paths that gives a huge power with just one dot in them:

    1. Path of Corruption 1- make anyone change their mind. I don't have to tell you how stupidly powerful that is, no? This is both ultimate social tool ("Do you trust me?". "Not at all!". "And now?". "Sure, I do!") and ultimate get out of jail card ("You are arrested!". "You still want to arrest me?". "Not at all!")
    2. Path of Transmutation 1 - one point can make any weapon/bullet etc. deal suddenly up to 5 extra Heath Level damage or you can make something soak 5 Health Level of Damage. Just buy yourself custom trench coat with hidden hood and use this on it and you have better armor than kevlar gear on yourself.
    3. Path of Focused Mind 1 - You always win innitiative rolls. The only person who can beat you (maybe) is person with high celerity (but that is mostly only 5 extra dex dices) but you have always 10 (!) extra dices at minimum. Start with 3-4 Wits, 1 Dex and you have 14-15 dices to roll innitiative.
    4. Path of Elementa Mastery 1- 4xp for nice buff to strength and stamina.
    5. Path of Father Vengance 1 - not op, but still nice
    6. Path of Movement Mind 1- you won't lift people but you can still do tons of things with that
    7. Path of Technomancy 1 - very strong in Masquarade
    8. Path of Mars 1- good for combat oriented Tremere

    That's what I am aware of. For 1 dot the above give a huge tools to use, especially FM, Corruption and Transmutation are broken when used correctly.

    Conjuration is of course also super strong but 2 dots are when it needs to be at.

    Also worth to mention is Path of Blood 3 and 4 combo with Path of Mars. If you start at 8th gen you can easly get yourself on average to 3-2 generation, use theft of vitea and buff yourself crazy in first two turns to insane stats on Stamina, Strength, Dex and then you can just suck more blood, heal everything in one turn, buff more and more. If you are 2-3 Gen you can suddenly have in 1 turn 10-20 in one physical stat. Add Path of Mars to it or Focused Mind 4 (2x Theft of Vitae per turn + buffing yourself) and you can in short time wrestle anyone even if they have 5 STR + 5 Potence. Only agg damage is still problem, but agg is rare in my games.
    Last edited by Viben; 08-11-2018, 02:49 PM.

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  • Inertial Frame
    replied
    Originally posted by Viben View Post

    I will be ST for a group soon and one of players is Tremere. Could you tell me what are those paths with one or two dots that could make char "incredible overpowered" so I can keep an eye on those and ban them before we start chronicle (if they are really that strong).
    I preface this with a note on the character's apparent build: he's a melee/thrown weapons primary that mostly uses Movement of the Mind to shape his attacks and retrieve his weapons.

    With that caveat, if he had paid some attention, he could have Path of Mars (one, two, and four are all amazing for him), Conjuring (two would make him never need to actually carry melee weapons), and Elemental Mastery (one alone is worth buying for him). We don't have access to Rites of the Blood, but we do have virtually all the previous books from earlier editions, so Focused Mind and Mastery of the Mortal Shell are both technically on the table, as well. He could be a serious combat monster with little trouble at 4xp per dot for each of those paths...

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  • Prince of the Night
    replied
    The Brokenness of Thaumatalagy and their wimpy clan bane.

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  • Viben
    replied
    Originally posted by Inertial Frame View Post

    2) C) This, in part, goes to the Storyteller's game running style. But rampant Thaumaturgy owned by one PC and one group-attached NPC has shown me it is absolutely brokenly overpowered if people can get several paths, whether fairly easily or no. The only good news about this character? The player obviously didn't look too closely, because there are paths that would make his character incredibly overpowered with respect to the other PC's if he got even one or two dots in them.
    I will be ST for a group soon and one of players is Tremere. Could you tell me what are those paths with one or two dots that could make char "incredible overpowered" so I can keep an eye on those and ban them before we start chronicle (if they are really that strong).

    Leave a comment:


  • Viben
    replied
    Based on revised and V20 I guess it's because - Paths are cheap and hold as much power as 6+ disciplines in many cases. Since they are cheap you can learn a lot of them and they have some really nasty combos. Rituals add even more versitilty to Tremere - things like backfiring any Presence powers used on you, having couple hours of Obfuscate 3 on you for free, walking on walls, teleportation, fire swords/blades, wards, procetion from sunlight/stakes and many many more. They can also be combine is some nasty things- like stake that suck blood + fire ritual + ward vs Kindred and throw that at enemy with movement of mind- sucking blood of enemy, agg damage + 3 lethal dice damage. A lot more stuff like that, which is heaven for power-build players, because they see such things and possibilities.

    Thaumaturgy is like swiss tool and creativity of player can take that even further. It's absolutely devastating in fights too. Lure of Flames is heavy damage per turn + Red Fear, Conjuration can bring down whole buildings, you can fly and suck blood of people, take control on their bodies, force misfortune on them, lower your generaion, deal agg damage on range without letting enemy dodge/parry etc. If not ambushed Tremere is probably strongest vampire to duel anyway. On the other had, ambushed in melee they are in trouble. However, give them enough time to prepare they can take out anyone with ease.

    There is also a matter of players- in most cases players who prefer to take Tremere are powerbuilders, mechanic gurus, great tacticians, people with vast knowledge and experience in systems, generally they see the full potential in Tremre and that what makes them play them. And it's devastating as most other players feel like they are being overshadowed.

    But I don't think it's bad. If we think of most RPG systems- wizard in general at some points start to be so strong that rest of the party asks themselfs what they are doing here in first place.

    They have also probably best disciplines combo in game- having Auspex (which counters Obfuscate and Stealth- biggest threats to Tremere), Dominate (giving them a huge roleplay/social and combat power even on 1 dot only) and Thaumaturgy which is just everything. They can ignore things like Dex and Str as they have Thaumaturgy and they can ivest heavy in knowledge and social skills and still be powerhouse in other fields (control, combat, spying, investigating, informaiton aquiring, hacking etc etc). And social-build Tremre is absolutely scary.

    Now Secondary Paths is all what you need, but good power-builder will try to learn Protean for mist form or Serpentis for 3rd level for defense. Or Presence for ultimate Sorcerer Lord theme....

    Path of Mercury allow them to just - bum, teleport away and don't give a dam about any threat if they don't feel like they can win. It's like Mist form but you don't have to stay there or travel and fear magic or fire catch you, you just go bum!- 500 miles away. Done. Hell, Path of Dreams let you kill people in their dreams. And don't even start at Auspex 5 + Thaumaturgy combo making them one of best long range assassins in game. Look, there is astral form killing you and your group with magic and you can't do anything about it. Levinbolt makes you immune to bullets, techo makes you best hacker, biothaumaturgy experimentation + level 5 ritual for Gargolye makes you better Tzimitsce for creating ultimate bodyguards/pokemons. And a lot more.

    They are just all in one and there is no situation Tremere won't be strong in if build correctly.
    Last edited by Viben; 07-07-2018, 09:29 PM.

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  • Acopiltaczet
    replied
    Originally posted by The Gentleman Gamer View Post

    I wrote the post four years ago, so I wouldn't rely on it to inform you about the Tremere in V5.
    Is there anything you can reveal about The Tremere and Thaumaturgy? I'm kind of anxious about it since they are my favorites,the ADHD is not helping.

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  • Inertial Frame
    replied
    OK, so, first, before I weigh in on the actual discussion, I gotta say I'm surprised this thread hasn't been locked down given how far it's strayed from the original premise.


    Now that that's taken care of:

    1) In a discussion of the clan Tremere, one can reasonably expect to talk about lore, history, their clan weakness, the clan's structure, and the in-clan disciplines Auspex, Dominate, and Thaumaturgy. Roping in the Ventrue weakness and/or structure, discussions on Celerity and other problematic disciplines, and similar issues gets away from talking about what the thread is about, namely the Tremere.

    2) My personal issues with the Tremere are three-fold, A) the expanding history that has had to be written as if the Tremere were historical contortionists that, based on how they are portrayed in the Dark Ages lines, should never have made it to modern times, B) a chronicle I ran that had a Tremere, and just how much extra work I had to put into it to keep the Tremere (as a clan, not the individual) properly portrayed, and C) a chronicle in which I currently play, where I've seen virtually unrestricted Thaumaturgy and how it affects play.

    2) A) They made fools of no less than four clans. The most obvious one being the Salubri (Or did they? It's hard to tell with the weirdness that is the Vampire metaplot. I vote that they did, though, because the "Saulot intended all this to happen" seems a bit far-fetched. Even the Antediliuvians get things wrong.). The other obvious ones are Gangrel, Nosferatu, and Tzimisce. There are others as mentioned by Beckett in the other Tremere thread (or this one, page 5) which I don't recall at the moment, but I believe that the end count was eight. How could that many clans all fail to see what was going on here? Not to mention the Order of Hermes, whether the Mage iteration or the Ars Magica variant.

    2) B) The excessive amount of extra work I had to do to keep the clan as a whole properly portrayed involved keeping up NPC rivals within the chantry, the Regent, and other NPC's that were solely designed to interact with the Tremere PC. I did say "no" to a lot of the path requests, and did give a list of paths and rituals the character could learn. If it weren't for poor planning on the players' parts (the Tremere PC was destroyed in a pretty epic fail for the group), it would have become much, much harder over time.

    2) C) This, in part, goes to the Storyteller's game running style. But rampant Thaumaturgy owned by one PC and one group-attached NPC has shown me it is absolutely brokenly overpowered if people can get several paths, whether fairly easily or no. The only good news about this character? The player obviously didn't look too closely, because there are paths that would make his character incredibly overpowered with respect to the other PC's if he got even one or two dots in them.

    3) Speaking of Thaumaturgy and paths, even after accounting for effective duplication of paths, the Tremere Thaumaturgy discipline carries with it no less than 37 paths. The next closest has something like 17, and that may be me being generous in the grouping of paths into Thaumaturgical disciplines. At least two forms have a single digit path count. So even while other clans are getting more Thaumaturgical equivalents, those "equivalents" have nothing like the flexibility and raw power of Tremere Thaumaturgy. Let's not even get into the hundreds of rituals.

    4) The weakness. This weakness, even the V20 version, is extremely easy to ignore. Many of them are, to be fair, if your Storyteller doesn't care to do so. However, even in much more committed chronicles, it is simply something easily overlooked by everyone.
    Last edited by Inertial Frame; 06-14-2018, 12:47 PM. Reason: That other Tremere thread? That was this one.

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  • stanlemon
    replied
    I wouldn't remove Paths personally. Instead I would rework several of the Paths to balance them out better. Possibly make Lure of Flames do Lethal damage for example to represent the unnatural nature of the flames. I'd also make a Ritual Knowledge which would be the cap to how high of Rituals you could learn up to Level 5 Rituals. The reason for this I would make Thaumaturgical Rituals far more common because I think that any Vampire should be able to learn a Ritual by doing the proper steps without having to understand the underlying metaphysics behind it. Lastly, Rituals 6-9 would require both Thaumaturgy and Ritual Knowledge to be at least at the level of the Ritual to represent such powerful Rituals needing a fundamental understanding of the Ritual to perform properly. All that on top of the already mentioned aspect of you need to find someone to teach you Paths or Rituals which would be under the ST control.

    It's a tad clunky I know but I'd like to keep the feel of Thaumaturgy without making it too much like Requiem. Though if I remember correctly someone (Gentleman Gamer? can't remember for sure) posted that V5 will scrap Paths which I won't like. Then again, I wouldn't be surprised as I haven't liked anything I've seen about V5, to me it isn't V:TM so much as some hodgepodge of Requiem and the V:TM Larp
    Last edited by stanlemon; 06-14-2018, 12:06 PM.

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  • Monalfie
    replied
    Originally posted by Zanos View Post
    I'm not saying anything about whether Thaumaturgy is or isn't broken by comparing it to views of other disciplines. I am saying that it's not a valid reason to hate the Tremere if your opinion of keepers over various other "broken" disciplines isn't consistent.
    You aren't saying anything about it compared to other disciplines. The other poster was. That it is unfair to treat Thaumaturgy as the only problematic element because of other ones.



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