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  • continued..the Ruthvens

    In October I started a little Ruthven thread on the old WW-forums. Since them forums now being officially dead and I wanted to continue the discussion I decided to repost it here.
    My final entry in the bottom, for chronological reasons

    original_anarch wrote:
    So I was reading the first "brain spew" for the very new, very cool Tzimisce character Caltuna for the V20 Dark Ages book. Apparently her sire is a Ruthven, so I started thinking about all the other cool Ruthvens we have for the Vampire the Masquerade and Dark Ages lines, and how chaotic their relations appear. So I collected my thoughts, and the information I could gather and made a little mind map to help see it clearer - but it's really not:P All information contradictions aside, anyone can tell if I missed any source or have some insight they want to share on the subject?

    The Ruthven-line of Tzimisce:

    ”Ruthven” - progenitor of the line according to Danikas family tree in Lair of the Hidden and sire to Damek Ruthven. Childe of [Tzimisce] and 4th generation.

    Damek Ruthven – Childe to ”Ruthven” according to Danikas family tree in Lair of the Hidden and sire to Danika Ruthven and thus 5th generation. Is said to be the eldest surviving descendant of the Bogatyr lineages and has on his own merit won favor in the eyes of the Eldest, in Dark Ages Clan novel Tzimisce.

    Danika Ruthven – Childe to Damek Ruthven according to her family tree and bio in Lair of the Hidden. 6th generation.

    Tabak (Ruthven) – Childe to Damek Ruthven and given the last name Ruthven in Dark Ages novel: Tzimisce. At one point described as the sire of Lambach Ruhven in Children of the Inquisition, but at others as Lambach's anarch/Sabbat leader (and Lambachs sire is also said to have fled the anarchs in the first place). Transylvania Chronicles II also refers to Tabak as Lambach's pack leader, rather than calling Tabak his sire. If Tabak is indeed a childe of Damek he supposedly is 6th generation.

    Lambach Ruthven – Might be a childe of Tabak Ruthven (Children of the Inquisition; one line claiming that), and then supposedly 7th generation if Tabak's own lineage is correct (as described above).
    Also said to be of the 7th generation and childe of Tabak in Encyclopaedia Vampirica.
    Described as Danika's cousin in Lair of the Hidden. This might just be another word for their kinship, but if taken in literal sense Lambach's and Danika's sire might share the same sire. Also note that Lambach is not referred as ”uncle” or anything signifying greater age or power.
    Described as a 4th generation methuselah in CB:Tzimisce, that he's been around longer than most organized religions, that he's going to be the last to fall to his sire [Tzimisce]'s million-fold teeth, and that the Eldest chose him as a childe for being a survivor in the purest sense.
    Gehenna stars Lambach as the favorite grandchilde of [Tzimisce] and then supposedly 5th generation. ”Grandchilde” might also be a figure of speech rather than literal genealogy.
    Transylvania Chronicles II says that with the diablerie of Tabak, Dracula is made the same generation as Lambach and stats Dracula as 5th generation (as do Children of the Night).

    Descendants to the Ruthven line but not sharing the Ruthven name from the top of my head is, but not limited to: Dracula, Ilias cel Frumos, Anastazi.

    On the books mentioned:
    Gehenna is optional scenarios and may not be considered hard canon.
    Dark Ages Novel: Tzimisce like all novels may not to be considered hard canon.
    Encyclopaedia Vampirica is written in-character and is as reliable as the Book of Nod.
    Children of the Inquisition, Lair of the Hidden, Transylvania Chronicles II and CB:Tzimisce is all part of the VTM-canon. CB:Tzimisce, however, have big parts being narrated in-character.


    IgnyteZero wrote:
    I don't have Lair of the Hidden close, but wasn't Anastaszi a Ruthven too? He's Danikas childe at least.
    original_anarch wrote:
    Yea, I mentioned him above with descendants that didn't share the Ruthven name. He's a childe of Danika but the bio makes no reference to him using the name, or - how do I put it - being of the family.
    ... or so I thought. Reading through him one more time, I noticed in the "image" section him being a "sensualist to his Ruthven soul". So I stand corrected
    IgnyteZero wrote:
    Ah, somehow overlooked that last line at the bottom. My fault.

  • #2
    Zarek wrote:
    Lambach Sire was Tabak, a 4th Generation Tzimisce, Dracula, Lambach's Childe Diablerised him, thus making himself 5th, like Lambach
    Baron Samedi wrote:
    Yea Tabek being 4th and Lambach 5th, thus Dracula 5th because he consumed Tabek, is my understanding.
    Yossarian wrote:
    Little known(?) fact: "Ruthven" is pronounced "Riven".
    I've always liked Lambach. As far as "most screwed person ever" goes, he's definitely a strong contender.
    original_anarch wrote:
    Its highly possible what you both, Zarek and Baron Samedi, writes.
    It explains the generation on Dracula nicely.
    But that makes the assumption that Lambach's sire Tabak leaves Lambach and all other progeny to slow down the anarchs, who Tabak then joins despite them being against all a old crafty arch-fiend stands for, and then becomes a big anarch leader who teams up with his traitorous childe.
    It's also makes the assumption that 2 founders and some archons is a match for a 4th generation Methuselah, his childe and some fodder on their hometurf, before mortal Dracula attacks.
    Not that's impossible, far from it, strange things did happen during the anarch revolt.
    What the theory don't explain is Lambach from Clanbook Tzimisce.
    It also doesn't rhyme well with being a cousin to Danika. More of an uncle then really

    And yea, I like Lambach too. In fact he is probably one of the bigger reasons I got into Vampire.

    Comment


    • #3
      Zarek wrote:
      Or there is two Lambachs...

      CBR-Tzim talks about a strong willed Lambach, who never forget the insult of Yorak, when (s)he chose Triglav, the Three headed koldun to embrace Shaagra, insted of him (to be honest, why would Yorak chose a 5th generation nobody, instead of a Koldun prophet is beyond me...)

      And there is our favorite 5th gen 'noob' Lambach, who was beaten by the mortal/Basarab Ravenant Vlad Tepes and forced to embrace him...

      Like two different person...


      And of curse, the Ruthven line not need to be come from the same progenitor. It's possible it is an ancient Ravenant family and Tabak just want some little fun with his Ruthven servant, the disgrace of the Ruthven family (weak, paranoid, hates to be a vampire, not a koldun , etc compared to Danika or Damek. Lambah is like Danika's progeny, who survived the Tremere attack just becouse run away... a shame, a joke) and embraced him just to piss of the old Ruthvens.
      Happnes all the time (i think it's even a Flaw )

      -Saga- wrote:
      My take is in favor of Lair of the Hidden and Dark Ages Novel Tzimisce. There is no place whatsoever were Tabak is named as Lambach's sire. I believe in Lambach's background from Children of the Inquisition to be like Shaitan's background on Dark Ages Companion (prior to Clanbook Baali), he was considered something else to hide its true nature.

      4th generation: Lambach Ruthven

      5th generation: Damek Ruthven, childe of Lambach

      6th generation: Tabak, childe of Damek

      I believe that Revised made it pretty clear in this one.

      -Saga

      PS: The messed twice with Lambach's generation on Revised, in Nights of Prophecy and on Gehenna
      AzraelFirestorm wrote:
      Axtually, I've always had a theory/theories about this.

      There aren't two Lambachs, per se, but almost.



      I think [Tzimisce] directed Lambach via Dominate or other coercion to embrace Dracula.
      I know Dominate isn't in-clan for the Eldest, necessarily (Though, it might be. Look at the OCT. He's an Ante, they break the rules.)


      The Eldest has Auspex 10, that's a given.
      I'm betting he knew about Vlad Tepes' plan long before Lambach did.
      I'm not too clear on a specific motive yet, but the Eldest is a mysterious being...

      I theorize that there may be a similar situation with Lambach as the Eldest impersonating Lugoj.

      I think [Tzimisce] is running the show. Half the time, we're seeing Lambach, the other half we're seeing the Antideluvian himself pretending to be Lambach.

      Maybe one of the Lambach's we're seeing is the Eldest him/hers/itself, impersonating him through Vicissitude or just Possessing Lambach directly with Dominate.

      Where's my aluminum-foil hat?


      The Eldest is always with you.

      The Eldest is within all of you.

      LONG LIVE THE NEW FLESH!* (evil emote)

      *ha. Videodrome. Who wants to come over and watch a Cronenberg marathon?:P

      EDIT: Sorry, I meant Lambach, not Lugoj
      Ho Dracon wrote:
      (quoting Saga) This is how I interpret this as well. Lambach was forced to embrace Vlad, but he tricked Vlad into thinking that Tabak was his sire. So instead of being diablerised by Vlad on the spot, he made Vlad think that he would be more powerful if he went after Tabak instead.

      So, Vlad was already 5th gen when he diablerised Tabak.

      /Ho Dracon
      Last edited by original_anarch; 12-12-2013, 03:27 PM.

      Comment


      • #4
        MrAshur wrote:
        (quoting AzraelFirestorm) Just as a side note, why do people always bring up in-clan disciplines when it comes to ancient vampires ? Just because those do come more naturally to their respective clans doesn´t mean that ancients can´t have high ratings in other disciplines. Not to mention the possibility that those disciplines changed over the millenia.

        It would never occur to me to think a 5th generation Nosferatu methuselah couldn´t possibly have Dominate 8, because it´s not in-clan ! Silly !

        Rant over, carry on ! (Blush emote)
        original_anarch wrote:
        (quoting Zarek) Or even more Lambachs, with all generations from 4th to 7th accounted for But yea, Lambach being pissed at Yorak, who he thinks awe-fully of in NoP - I can't really see that.
        If Lambach is either a 4th generation himself or a 5th generation childe of Tabak, he can't really share the same progenitor as the other Ruthvens (as per Lair of the Hidden). His sire then taking him to embarrass the Ruthvens has a big appeal

        (quoting Saga) First of I really appreciated you mentioned Nights of Prophesy, which I don't understand how I could have overlooked To add on my sources above NoP calls the antediluvian Lambach's grandsire.
        No, there's no place in either Lair of the Hidden and Dark Ages novel Tzimisce that Tabak is named as Lambach's sire. But Lambach is called a cousin in LotH. Or did you mean that the fact that he is the progenitor is unknown to his own lineage?
        And didn't all the fuss with Lambach's generation start with Revised? All the conflicting accounts is from Revised edition or DA:V, no?

        (quoting AzraelFirestorm) Sorry, I didn't get that (blush emote)

        (quoting Ho Dracon) Also a highly possible theory
        Major problem for it I guess would be NoP.
        Last edited by original_anarch; 12-12-2013, 03:27 PM.

        Comment


        • #5
          AzraelFirestorm wrote:
          (quoting original_anarch)(blush emote) Whoops, that's my fault. I didn't check my post for mistakes.

          I edited it to reflect what I actually meant.

          EDIT: Gah! Why am I always quoted before I fix my typos??? xO
          original_anarch wrote:
          (quoting AzrealFirestorm) Ahh, now I got it: possession or imitation
          CB:Tzimisce claims that the Eldest grants Lambach any power he needs to survive so why not. The generation might even be a thing in motion. But still he would have been embraced at something and by someone.


          I took a look at New York by Night as well since half remembering some Lambach action in there. It offers Calebros mentioning Lambach as cainite about thousand years of age and five or six steps removed from Caine.

          And I took all the times Lambach's sire and/or Tabak is mentioned in Lambach's bio in CotI trying to get a bigger picture:
          Lambach suffered at his sire's embrace. (not identified with Tabak)
          His Tzimisce leaders demanded he help fight the Tremere and anarchs. (not identified with Tabak)
          Lambach's sire called all his childer to defend him from the anarchs and escaped. (not identified with Tabak)
          Lambach's Sabbat leader lord Tabak punished Lambach. (Tabak not being identified as Lambach's sire)
          A group of Camarilla Justicars ambushed them, captured Lambach and forced Tabak into torpor. (Tabak not being identified as Lambach's sire)
          Dracula drained the blood of Lambach's defensless regent Tabak. (Tabak not being identified as Lambach's sire)
          Lambach feared that the Sabbat would destroy him for his failure with Dracula and that Dracula had the power of his sire Tabak. (here is the only time Tabak is claimed as Lambach's sire, except for in EV. I'm not claiming it's wrong, I just find it interesting. Also in TCII only pack leader is used for Tabak)
          -Saga- wrote:
          I've been thinking a lot to answer this.

          At the end, its only a matter of choice. Although it is pretty clear for me that Lambach began as a 5th generation or even 6th back in 2nd edition (as his sire was mentioned in CotI but not referring to it as the Antediluvian), Revised chose to use him as a 4th generation. There is no logic or theory towards any thought beside this. The rest is simply writers using their own version of Lambach to fit whatever they were writing at that time, and whoever was in charge of the canon history simply didn't care for a need to explain why Lambach was 4th or 5th.

          I'm sure that the original 5th generation idea evolved into something else for the Revised scenario. They expanded the concept of Lambach and needed to be 4th generation (mostly the concept was based more on him being the childe of the Eldest rather than the numerical generation).

          Now, i found something worth of note. There are only 2 references on Lambach not being the Eldest's childe. NoP's introduction and Gehenna's Crucible of God scenario. What do those things have in common? THEY WERE WRITTEN BY THE SAME GUY (Dean Shomshak)! Apparently he was given free reign over choosing to ignore the other references of Lambach being 4th generation over Revised books. So you all supporters of the 5th version, here's your puppet master.

          -Saga

          MrAshur wrote:
          I´m a little confused. I never got the impression that Lambach was supposed to be a 4th generation Cainite..... I only noticed that him being mentioned as an influential and very old member of Clan Tzimisce doesn´t work with how he was used in regards to Dracula. I mean, who exactly orders an ancient methuselah of the clan to beat up some unruly anarchs ?! (ambivalent emote)

          ...which brings us to the present.
          I found a paragraph in Clanbook Tzimisce that I have overlooked before. Maybe not new to some of you, but news to me. It's not related to who sired who but to the whole Ruthven line.
          Apparently there once was a revenant family called Ruthvenski, that later was absorbed into one or more of the larger revenant families. The Zantosa were once called Zantosovich, may not the Ruthvenski be another name change, but from the original Ruthven name?
          If so, the Ruthvens was a revenant family, which nicely explains why so many from that particular family was embraced.

          Then I wonder if anyone got any theories about the Bogatyri?
          As written about above, Damek Ruthven was said to be the eldest surviving descendant of the Bogatyr lineages, who's founders had guarded the resting place of the Eldest. But what do that mean? Mortal descendant or cainite descendant? Could the Bogatyri - described as neither kine, cainite or lupine by Yorak in CB:Tz - have mortal children, or get embraced? And what is a Bogatyr lineage? Sounds like they did multiply and breed some kind of offspring, don't it?
          What's popping up in my head is revenant (even though Yorak should know what that is).
          The Bogatyri like the revenants is neither kine, cainite or lupine. Both are guarding the antediluvian (the Zantosa in New York). So is they the same thing - a race entirely created for servitude? Or perhaps once upon a time more divine beings that got polluted by the human gene-pool in their quest to breed new generations?
          More crazy ideas any one? ^^
          Last edited by original_anarch; 12-12-2013, 03:28 PM.

          Comment


          • #6
            Hmmm, I like this topic. Although I admit I have very little to contribute to this conversation. Everything I know has already been said. This topic is a good read.

            Comment


            • #7
              Hmm, google lets me know that the Bogatyr is some type of (mythical?) heroes in eastern Europe. They are almost portrayed as demigods but seems more to be people with divine power and strength. The modern russian word ”Bogatyr” even means ”a strong person”. Looks like they were some type of protectors of the slavs.
              http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WZFgssoIqJY

              As for what White Wolf writes about them, I don't think they are Revenants cuz the legend says that they came to the Eldest when they were washed into the Carpathians during the Great Flood. I guess he could've made them Revenants from there on but to me it comes off as they are super strong already when they arrived at the Carpathians, having skin that can't be cut with metal nore be bruised by stone or wood. And like you pointed out, Yorak would probably pointed them out as Revenants. His words more catagorize them as something else...
              When I read about them, I just assumed they were some type of mythical creatures that swore alliance to the Eldest, however, I sure would like to know what the hell they really are. Maybe they are just Revenants that just have a really extravagant legend built around themselves.

              Awesome topic by the way, great save!

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by anda View Post
                Hmm, google lets me know that the Bogatyr is some type of (mythical?) heroes in eastern Europe. They are almost portrayed as demigods but seems more to be people with divine power and strength. The modern russian word ”Bogatyr” even means ”a strong person”. Looks like they were some type of protectors of the slavs.
                http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WZFgssoIqJY

                As for what White Wolf writes about them, I don't think they are Revenants cuz the legend says that they came to the Eldest when they were washed into the Carpathians during the Great Flood. I guess he could've made them Revenants from there on but to me it comes off as they are super strong already when they arrived at the Carpathians, having skin that can't be cut with metal nore be bruised by stone or wood. And like you pointed out, Yorak would probably pointed them out as Revenants. His words more catagorize them as something else...
                When I read about them, I just assumed they were some type of mythical creatures that swore alliance to the Eldest, however, I sure would like to know what the hell they really are. Maybe they are just Revenants that just have a really extravagant legend built around themselves.

                Awesome topic by the way, great save!
                Yeah, I too find the Bogatyri quite intriguing
                In perfect honesty, I kind of envision them as something "other" as well, but I wanted to work with just what the Damek Ruthven-Bogatyri connection might be.
                So I draw the revenant angle a bit longer: So as a little food for thought experiment I tried to envision how the Ruthven revenant family might look like.
                While never stated to have been revenants, I used the bio's of Lambach, Danika and Anastazi as inspiration. Their personal destinies might ofc not be general Ruthven-ish, but it's what we have to work with. Below are some highlights in their upbringings that I thought might shine some light of the situation:

                The vampire clan selected many of it's neonates from a pol of powerful young aristocrats who were raised specifically to become undead. This ensured them a line of noble-born fledglings, bred to wield power. Unfortunately, it also created a host of spoiled children with weak genes and weaker wills – childer like Lambach Ruthven.
                Though born to privilege and power […]
                […] promoted over far worthier rivals by dint of the accident of his birth.
                He flourished only by squandering the great reserve of power his ancestors had stored for him.
                - CotI (Lambach)

                Above all she remembers the night when, at age 14, her family betrothed her to their patron, the undead viovoide Damek Ruthven.
                Tutors instructed the mortal girl in languages and literature, in intrigue and politics, and in the duties of a childe-wife to her sire-husband.
                Danika studied Metamorphosist philosophy, but far preferred the arts of the koldun. She soon surpassed even her sire in her ability to summon spirits and manipulate the elements[...]
                She ruled her own domain now in service to Damek […] Meanwhile, he (never one for mortal proprieties) beagn the process o choosing and training a new bride. Danika soon learned she was neither the first nor the last of these, but she would in time prove the most successful.
                - LotH (Danika)

                Anatstazi was at one time Danika's mortal seneschal, whose responsibilities included over-seeing Hunedoara Castle and maintaining contact with his counterparts on her scattered estates.
                She was counting on him to ”take care of things” […] Unfortunately he was now the youngest of three ambitious childer […] Equally unfortunately, Anastazi lacked the political experience to handle this situation adeptly.
                - LotH (Anastazi)

                Sarmizegetusa, for the Tzimisce, was far more than that. Its master, the eldest surviving descendant of the bogatyr lineages whose founder had guarded – the resting place of the Eldest, had dwelt and ruled there since before the coming of the Romans.
                […] suggested that the Eldest had returned, after many years, to the bosom of the mountains that cradled Sarmizegetusa, the place that he had one resided for centuries.
                […] treading close to to the place that might be the Eldest's own homeland […]
                - Dark Ages Tzimisce Clan Novel

                So while I rather don't feel I have the language for this, perhaps something like this:

                Revenant family: Ruthven (in certain times and areas known as the Ruthvenski)

                To hear the Ruthven sages speak of it, the family's origins lay with the mysterious Bogatyri of old legends. To the Ruthven family, theirs alone was the mantle of tradition, aristocracy, and most of all guardianship. Like the long gone Bogatyri, the Ruthven revenants claimed to be the guardians of – if not the Eldest itself – then at least the antediluvian's own homeland. This important inheritance gifted the Ruthven family with a certain status as the oldest and noblest line amongst their revenant brethren. In the same extent that they dominated their revenant kin, the Ruthven family grew to wield power in the early halls of human lords among the Carpathians. These factors led to them being seen as potential childer to their Tzimisce masters. Being born under the servitude of creatures no longer remotely human, however, often bred brutally ineffective leaders of men.
                Ruthven revenants who received the embrace often, and quickly, showed great affinity with the arts of koldunic sorcery. Some attributed it to the legacy of the Bogatyri, others to their ancestral ties to the land of the Eldest. While the truth of the matter was never fully settled, the blood of the Ruthven-line remained strong in the magic of the old ways. While few, those not-embraced revenants who showed skill in koldunic sorcery were always killed.
                In the ages past, while many of the Ruthven revenants received the embrace, there were still many left to continue repopulate the family. During the violent conflicts with the Tremere and the Ventrue, and later the anarch uprisings, great many of the line were turned into vampirism in a greater haste than the family could handle. Adding the (few) family members killed for showing knowledge of koldunism, and those (several) killed by their own stupidity in human courts, the Ruthven-line began to dwindle. During the assault on the haven of the antediluvian a great portion of the remaining family were killed. The disorganized remnants, feeling they'd failed in their sacred duty, sought safety – and was absorbed – into the larger revenant families.
                Disciplines: I'm thinking Dominate here, maybe Auspex too. Koldunic Sorcery might be too extreme, since not even kolduns have it in-clan...
                Weakness: Maybe something along with the human sin of pride? Or bound to the soil in some way? Or Dark Faith hehe...

                Thoughts?

                Comment


                • #9
                  That was a great read! I like all of it, have to give their weakness some thoughts though. Which Revenant family did you imagine them absorbing into?

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by original_anarch View Post
                    Yeah, I too find the Bogatyri quite intriguing In perfect honesty, I kind of envision them as something "other" as well, but I wanted to work with just what the Damek Ruthven-Bogatyri connection might be. So I draw the revenant angle a bit longer: So as a little food for thought experiment I tried to envision how the Ruthven revenant family might look like. While never stated to have been revenants, I used the bio's of Lambach, Danika and Anastazi as inspiration. Their personal destinies might ofc not be general Ruthven-ish, but it's what we have to work with. Below are some highlights in their upbringings that I thought might shine some light of the situation: The vampire clan selected many of it's neonates from a pol of powerful young aristocrats who were raised specifically to become undead. This ensured them a line of noble-born fledglings, bred to wield power. Unfortunately, it also created a host of spoiled children with weak genes and weaker wills – childer like Lambach Ruthven. Though born to privilege and power […] […] promoted over far worthier rivals by dint of the accident of his birth. He flourished only by squandering the great reserve of power his ancestors had stored for him. - CotI (Lambach) Above all she remembers the night when, at age 14, her family betrothed her to their patron, the undead viovoide Damek Ruthven. Tutors instructed the mortal girl in languages and literature, in intrigue and politics, and in the duties of a childe-wife to her sire-husband. Danika studied Metamorphosist philosophy, but far preferred the arts of the koldun. She soon surpassed even her sire in her ability to summon spirits and manipulate the elements[...] She ruled her own domain now in service to Damek […] Meanwhile, he (never one for mortal proprieties) beagn the process o choosing and training a new bride. Danika soon learned she was neither the first nor the last of these, but she would in time prove the most successful. - LotH (Danika) Anatstazi was at one time Danika's mortal seneschal, whose responsibilities included over-seeing Hunedoara Castle and maintaining contact with his counterparts on her scattered estates. She was counting on him to ”take care of things” […] Unfortunately he was now the youngest of three ambitious childer […] Equally unfortunately, Anastazi lacked the political experience to handle this situation adeptly. - LotH (Anastazi) Sarmizegetusa, for the Tzimisce, was far more than that. Its master, the eldest surviving descendant of the bogatyr lineages whose founder had guarded – the resting place of the Eldest, had dwelt and ruled there since before the coming of the Romans. […] suggested that the Eldest had returned, after many years, to the bosom of the mountains that cradled Sarmizegetusa, the place that he had one resided for centuries. […] treading close to to the place that might be the Eldest's own homeland […] - Dark Ages Tzimisce Clan Novel So while I rather don't feel I have the language for this, perhaps something like this: Revenant family: Ruthven (in certain times and areas known as the Ruthvenski) To hear the Ruthven sages speak of it, the family's origins lay with the mysterious Bogatyri of old legends. To the Ruthven family, theirs alone was the mantle of tradition, aristocracy, and most of all guardianship. Like the long gone Bogatyri, the Ruthven revenants claimed to be the guardians of – if not the Eldest itself – then at least the antediluvian's own homeland. This important inheritance gifted the Ruthven family with a certain status as the oldest and noblest line amongst their revenant brethren. In the same extent that they dominated their revenant kin, the Ruthven family grew to wield power in the early halls of human lords among the Carpathians. These factors led to them being seen as potential childer to their Tzimisce masters. Being born under the servitude of creatures no longer remotely human, however, often bred brutally ineffective leaders of men. Ruthven revenants who received the embrace often, and quickly, showed great affinity with the arts of koldunic sorcery. Some attributed it to the legacy of the Bogatyri, others to their ancestral ties to the land of the Eldest. While the truth of the matter was never fully settled, the blood of the Ruthven-line remained strong in the magic of the old ways. While few, those not-embraced revenants who showed skill in koldunic sorcery were always killed. In the ages past, while many of the Ruthven revenants received the embrace, there were still many left to continue repopulate the family. During the violent conflicts with the Tremere and the Ventrue, and later the anarch uprisings, great many of the line were turned into vampirism in a greater haste than the family could handle. Adding the (few) family members killed for showing knowledge of koldunism, and those (several) killed by their own stupidity in human courts, the Ruthven-line began to dwindle. During the assault on the haven of the antediluvian a great portion of the remaining family were killed. The disorganized remnants, feeling they'd failed in their sacred duty, sought safety – and was absorbed – into the larger revenant families. Disciplines: I'm thinking Dominate here, maybe Auspex too. Koldunic Sorcery might be too extreme, since not even kolduns have it in-clan... Weakness: Maybe something along with the human sin of pride? Or bound to the soil in some way? Or Dark Faith hehe... Thoughts?
                    Awesome research work and very good writing! As for discipline suggestions, i'd go with Auspex, Animalism and Vicissitude. It seems the Ruthvens are very close to the tzimisce and the eldest, i think it would make sense to mirror them so much. Weakness, i don't know. Maybe something related to the idea of inbreeding or being raised too inhuman? The eerie presence flaw comes to mind. On the other Hand, it could make sense to suggest the Ruthvens were incorporated be the Basarab, the revenant family that actually birthed Vlad Tepes. They could even be one and the same. Their disciplines were Dominate, Protean and Vicissitude and their weakness a severe allergy to garlic that transferred even to undeath.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Thank you fellas, glad you liked it
                      I was loosely thinking that perhaps the Zantosa could be the family the Ruthven revenants was asorbed into. That could explain, in some sense, how the Zantosa turned from spies into more focused on how to wield power among humans. But that was just a thought...until I read what Valis wrote:
                      Cause I had totally forgot about the Basarab! They not mentioned in either Guide to the Sabbat, CB: Tzimisce or the Dark Ages Vampire-material, that I read through most recently. Maybe the Dark Ages Vampire writers forgot about hem as well
                      Rereading Transylvania by Night, the Basarab and how I envisioned the Ruthven family have many similarities. A difference that I see, is how in-adept many of the Ruthven is at what is expected of them. I really like the "spoiled children with weak wills and weaker genes"-angle from CotI. I'll give it some more thought about how I would handle it - all suggestions welcome!
                      The original Tzimisce disciplines makes a lot of sense, and something I considered myself. The reason I thought about including Dominate is that bad leaders with the means to impose the poor decisions upon their fellow men appeals to me.
                      I really like your suggestions for the weakness as well Valis!

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                      • #12
                        Actually, the idea of the Ruthven becoming a branch of the Zantosa is indeed very good, as it connects with the idea of protecting the Antediluvian's rest place. It could actually be argued that the Zantosa took the place of the Basarab as the Tzimisce's most prominent family, who in turn took the position from the Ruthven. One could say one family was absorbed into another as well, not exactly being replaced, but merged into the other and losing the surname.


                        Another take on the inbreeding comes from the Duschesky, who betrayed the Tzimisce and defected to the Tremere. They became inbred under the Tremere, and their weakness reflects this: they cannot have Social Attributes higher than 2.

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                        • #13
                          Hey All! Nice topic!

                          I wish I could find my Ruthvenski revenant family notes to properly add to this discussion. I planned on posted them to my Dark Ages Vampire campaign website a while back but never quite finished it. If I recall correctly, I said that they were the oldest of the remaining revenant families (as of AD 1203, when my chronicle is set), based on something that I read somewhere that eventually a ghoul family will stagnate and eventually go sterile from inbreeding and excessive mutation. They were at one point preeminent among the revenant families but they had lost a lot of political ground to the Basarab and Szantovitch families since the absorption of Dacia into the Roman empire. I didn't have plans to portray them as a weak or fallen bloodline (I see Lambach as an aberration), but rather as a particularly insular bloodline more interested in preserving clan genealogies and history, as well as secretly protecting the torpid form of the Eldest (in keeping with their portrayal in the Dark Ages Clan Novel Tzimisce).

                          Even so, a number of potent elder revenants still serve the formidable Lord Ruthven (who I place as the youngest of the Antediluvian's progeny), the most noted genealogist and historian among the clan and secretly the sworn protector of the Eldest. He is a Voivode of great power, who rules through his childer Damek and Tabak and on through their descendants. Lambach I have placed in the 6th generation, and he journeys throughout the Voivodate as the envoy of Lord Ruthven. He is obsequious in the extreme but welcome in most demesnes owing to his charm and lineage. At this point his family think him good for little else other than cataloguing the ever-changing power structures of the clan for his master (which ties in with the Eldest's plans for him down the road as a kind of clan chronicler). I wasn't too worried about generations here. The Anarch Revolt will provide plenty of opportunity for diablerie!

                          I had the Ruthven "Clan" Disciplines as Auspex, Dominate and Vicissitude and their Family Flaw as Can't Cross Running Water. Auspex to represent their guardian role and scholarly duties. Dominate to represent their role as ancient lords. And Vicissitude for fairly obvious reasons such as their extreme longevity as a Tzimisce bloodline and their proximity to the eldest. I liked Can't Cross Running Water for a couple of reasons. Firstly, it made them more insular, in keeping with my themes for the family. Secondly, I was inspired by the folkloric roots of the Basarab weakness, and liked the idea of giving another ancient family a similar curse. Now that you mention the Bogatyr link I have a third reason: they might have some residual aversion to water over the Great Flood and the deal they had to make with the Eldest?


                          The Concord of Ashes, my Dark Ages Vampire Chronicle

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                          • #14
                            I'm a big supporter of the Lambach being 4th generation. I believe that was the intention of the many revised books. I posted before that those mentions of Lambach being 5th on revised were written by the same guy (Dean Shomshak), and also if it were up to him, the NPC section of Lair of the Hidden would never mention a Ruthven as the progenitor of such line (thanks Sarah or Janet for that!).

                            -Saga

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by valismedsen View Post
                              Actually, the idea of the Ruthven becoming a branch of the Zantosa is indeed very good, as it connects with the idea of protecting the Antediluvian's rest place. It could actually be argued that the Zantosa took the place of the Basarab as the Tzimisce's most prominent family, who in turn took the position from the Ruthven. One could say one family was absorbed into another as well, not exactly being replaced, but merged into the other and losing the surname.
                              The Ruthven --> Basarab --> Zantosa could be very cool. I'll have to roughly check some dates though. I'll get back on that


                              Originally posted by Haligaunt View Post
                              Hey All! Nice topic!

                              I wish I could find my Ruthvenski revenant family notes to properly add to this discussion. I planned on posted them to my Dark Ages Vampire campaign website a while back but never quite finished it. If I recall correctly, I said that they were the oldest of the remaining revenant families (as of AD 1203, when my chronicle is set), based on something that I read somewhere that eventually a ghoul family will stagnate and eventually go sterile from inbreeding and excessive mutation. They were at one point preeminent among the revenant families but they had lost a lot of political ground to the Basarab and Szantovitch families since the absorption of Dacia into the Roman empire. I didn't have plans to portray them as a weak or fallen bloodline (I see Lambach as an aberration), but rather as a particularly insular bloodline more interested in preserving clan genealogies and history, as well as secretly protecting the torpid form of the Eldest (in keeping with their portrayal in the Dark Ages Clan Novel Tzimisce).

                              Even so, a number of potent elder revenants still serve the formidable Lord Ruthven (who I place as the youngest of the Antediluvian's progeny), the most noted genealogist and historian among the clan and secretly the sworn protector of the Eldest. He is a Voivode of great power, who rules through his childer Damek and Tabak and on through their descendants. Lambach I have placed in the 6th generation, and he journeys throughout the Voivodate as the envoy of Lord Ruthven. He is obsequious in the extreme but welcome in most demesnes owing to his charm and lineage. At this point his family think him good for little else other than cataloguing the ever-changing power structures of the clan for his master (which ties in with the Eldest's plans for him down the road as a kind of clan chronicler). I wasn't too worried about generations here. The Anarch Revolt will provide plenty of opportunity for diablerie!

                              I had the Ruthven "Clan" Disciplines as Auspex, Dominate and Vicissitude and their Family Flaw as Can't Cross Running Water. Auspex to represent their guardian role and scholarly duties. Dominate to represent their role as ancient lords. And Vicissitude for fairly obvious reasons such as their extreme longevity as a Tzimisce bloodline and their proximity to the eldest. I liked Can't Cross Running Water for a couple of reasons. Firstly, it made them more insular, in keeping with my themes for the family. Secondly, I was inspired by the folkloric roots of the Basarab weakness, and liked the idea of giving another ancient family a similar curse. Now that you mention the Bogatyr link I have a third reason: they might have some residual aversion to water over the Great Flood and the deal they had to make with the Eldest?
                              Cool that we had some similar ideas!
                              The genealogy angle is really good and fitting. Damek Ruthven had the most complete genealogical archive among his Clan, as you say according to Dark Ages Novel: Tz, and there were some servants creeping around in there that might have been revenants. Thing is, I don't want them to be a mix of all the other revenant families. It might be to much Obertus territory there, with some Zantosa and Basarab already thrown in. Any ideas how to handle it?
                              The progenitor of the line - "Ruthven" - I kind of figured were ash, with the emphasis on Damek as the "the eldest surviving descendant of the bogatyr lineages"-line. But I have obviously not been able to come to a conclusion about how to handle just what that line means
                              I'll think I'll go with Dominate too, but keeping with the Tzimisce Displines of Auspex and Vicissitude. Dominate is not unheard of among the Tzimisce either, with the Old Clan.
                              And you made a strong case for the Can't cross running water-flaw!


                              Originally posted by Saga View Post
                              I'm a big supporter of the Lambach being 4th generation. I believe that was the intention of the many revised books. I posted before that those mentions of Lambach being 5th on revised were written by the same guy (Dean Shomshak), and also if it were up to him, the NPC section of Lair of the Hidden would never mention a Ruthven as the progenitor of such line (thanks Sarah or Janet for that!).

                              -Saga
                              It's indeed a possibility.
                              But from my point of view there is really only one source that claims Lambach as a 4th generation cainite; Clanbook Tzimisce.
                              If you go with Lair of the Hidden, I think it's odd that Lambach is mentioned as a cousin to Danika, if he is indeed the progenitor of the line that's only called "Ruthven" in Danika's family tree.


                              Great input fellas. I really enjoy the continued discussion

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