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  • Niza
    started a topic Gargoyles

    Gargoyles

    I have a chance to play one in a campaign that a player is taking over now that he feels ready and I guess I have a few things to iron out. In V20 during a more final nights time period do all of them still choose to be free? Not only that, would playing nicely with a tremere be possible assuming hes been free for at least 70 years?

    Other than that, some mechanics I wanted to discuss were as follows.

    Armor of terra: It mentions this power is always active, how does this factor to earth melding? Apply it before I apply the triple soak from that power? Taking that one step further, choosing not to run around naked he might be at least semi armored, which order do I stack those in? And unfortunately to ask for more, where do I start with fortitude on top of all that?

    Flight: Was there ever a decent home ruling on flight and potence together?

    Lastly how does it work when someone becomes a gargoyle in terms of discipline? Assuming a vampire was turned into a gargoyle after being around for a while, what happens to all that previous power?

    Edit: For flight also, does the rule for elder disciplines prevent flight going further? Could I raise flight above and beyond?
    Last edited by Niza; 11-27-2014, 01:22 AM.

  • Matt the Bruins fan
    replied
    I'm sure all those methods help, but I'd say being an effective tabula rasa, who's been indoctrinated into servitude if the character wasn't a free gargoyle embrace, is the biggest hurdle. From a psychological standpoint they're the equivalent of the Sabbat's Blood Brothers, with the added difficulty that they can't pass for human at all without fairly heavy investment in an out-of-clan discipline.

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  • Chattnos
    replied
    Originally posted by Matt the Bruins fan View Post
    In general gargoyles have been presented as too simpleminded and bestial (remember, their pre-death identities and memories get mostly washed away by the embrace) to manage the political juggling act needed to become a Prince. Even the few who have the intellect/personalities for it are going to be hampered by the major clans not respecting them. Plus there's that clan weakness that makes them extra vulnerable to Dominate, which most politically-saavy vampires are going to possess.
    In the past Camarilla LARPs, free Gargoyles have hid out among th Nos. I think though most had been embraced into the line. Though I'm not sure.
    I was undr the impression blood bond , dominate, a few Thaum rituals is what kept them on the chain.e

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  • Daredevil
    replied


    Originally posted by Matt the Bruins fan View Post
    In general gargoyles have been presented as too simpleminded and bestial (remember, their pre-death identities and memories get mostly washed away by the embrace) to manage the political juggling act needed to become a Prince.
    Eh. You can say the same thing about Brujah, and countless other Clans.

    House of Tremere, and other sources have noted many capable leaders in the Gargoyle Bloodline. The average means little, especially since the very situation we are discussing is an exceptional individual tackling a position of power that demands exceptionalism.

    Originally posted by Matt the Bruins fan View Post
    Even the few who have the intellect/personalities for it are going to be hampered by the major clans not respecting them.
    Yeah. It depends on the City, the politics at hand, and the power this one Gargoyle has, both political and personal.

    It is more likely to happen in a city with little entrenchment of old Clan status quo. Perhaps a good city for this to occur in would be one that was held by Sabbat for a period of time, with few Elders and a lot more impressionable Neonates.

    Then again, many of the books have shown cities of all types that have undergone odd changes and shakeups and have would up with odd forms of government and odd governors.

    Originally posted by Matt the Bruins fan View Post
    Plus there's that clan weakness that makes them extra vulnerable to Dominate, which most politically-saavy vampires are going to possess.
    That one is not as limiting as it first seems, especially if the Gargoyle in question has a low Generation.

    It is not a good move to openly Dominate a Prince in their Domain (let alone in Elysium), so even if you have the power you are going to need to be subtle.

    The most likely Vampires to dominate a Prince are the ancient Players in the Jyhad, and unless they mistaken you for someone else’s puppet, one of them is going to eventually Dominate and subjugate you subtly anyway, penalty or no. Almost all Princes in this setting eventually winde up as chess pieces, regardless of Clan.

    It surprisingly has little sway over a Princes' position.

    Leave a comment:


  • Matt the Bruins fan
    replied
    In general gargoyles have been presented as too simpleminded and bestial (remember, their pre-death identities and memories get mostly washed away by the embrace) to manage the political juggling act needed to become a Prince. Even the few who have the intellect/personalities for it are going to be hampered by the major clans not respecting them. Plus there's that clan weakness that makes them extra vulnerable to Dominate, which most politically-saavy vampires are going to possess.

    Leave a comment:


  • Daredevil
    replied
    One big area of difficulty for a Gargoyle Prince is their social prowess. Obviously, they have no Clan social Disciplines.

    I think a wise Gargoyle with political ambitions would do well to find a Mentor to learn Presence, first. It works on Vampires of lower Generation and doesn't have the risk of striping the creativity of it's repeated targets.

    Gargoyles with the new Weakness are no longer required to have a zero Appearance, and they can attractive, if strange, in appearance.

    Their secondary Weakness of a Weak Will is still in effect, and any mental defenses they can summon would probably be a good idea, though harder to access on average.

    Path of Blood's Blood of Potency
    can help with direct encounters with Dominating, lower Generation Vampires.

    The Iron Will Merit might be a good investment, and would be appropriate for one of such rare ambition.

    Leave a comment:


  • Daredevil
    replied
    A Gargoyle Prince is intriguing.

    Their new Clan Weakness in DAV20 (pg 97 in the public document) would greatly favor the highly social position of a Prince.

    If a powerful Gargoyle has embraced a great deal of loyal prodigy (possibly as a way of dealing with said new Weakness), they could take the city from a hostile Prince (especially an abussive Tremere Prince), and hold it.

    Visceratika makes a great defense against Obfuscated spies and assailants in their Havens or Elysium.

    And no common Prince can travel around their Domain with such ease as one with Flight.

    As in regards to their published high level Disciplines, a lot of those effects have been made exceessible at lower levels as Gargoyle Rituals in DAV20. They are convered into Disciplines of the same value when taught. I'd personaly advise treating them as alternative basic levels of Visceratika.

    Either way, for ideas of alternative high level Visceratika powers, you can always look to other shape-shifting powers for inspiration (or just ripe off with some minor "skinning").

    Leave a comment:


  • Lubricus
    replied
    Originally posted by atamajakki View Post
    I doubt a structure as conservative as the Cammies would let a bunch of freakish ex-slaves lord over a bunch of folks from legitimate clans.
    That would probably depend on who else lives in the city - a small town with just a few Brujah, Gangrel and/or Nosferatu might not be impossible, but you'd probably not see a Gargoyle governed city containing Ventrue or Toreador of any pedigree.

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  • atamajakki
    replied
    Originally posted by Alucard View Post
    Atamajakki, there's definitely a Caitiff prince of Cairo. I think I also read about a Gargoyle prince somewhere, but I can't remember if that was canonical or just an AAR of an interesting game I read on line.
    Isn't Cairo an Ashirra domain, rather than straight-up Camarilla? I know it's basically a vassal state in modern nights, but still.

    As for a Gargoyle, I could totally see an one as the Baron of an Anarch domain, but a Prince? The Sabbat are far more progressive in the regard and they still wouldn't let that fly. I doubt a structure as conservative as the Cammies would let a bunch of freakish ex-slaves lord over a bunch of folks from legitimate clans.

    Leave a comment:


  • Alucard
    replied
    Visceratika has conanical level 6 and level 7 powers that are pretty cool.
    • 7th Generation [6]
      • Dark Statue: you are physically unaffected by sunlight as long as you don’t move, but must still roll to avoid Rötschreck, and must have Fortitude
      • Rockheart: your innards calcify, reducing peircing damage and making staking almost impossible
    • 6th Generation - Crawling Chamber [7]: you may animate, give a limited sentience to, and command (to an extent) a 10ft³ volume of stone
    Atamajakki, there's definitely a Caitiff prince of Cairo. I think I also read about a Gargoyle prince somewhere, but I can't remember if that was canonical or just an AAR of an interesting game I read on line.

    Leave a comment:


  • atamajakki
    replied
    Originally posted by fishboy202 View Post
    hey, i dont know if this fourum is still up but i have a game going on now where there is a gargoyle prince, which is causing some interesting friends and enemies arising. the gm has had to create some higher level powers as it ends at 5 for me so i wondered if youd like to see em ?
    That might actually be worse than a Caitiff prince. God damn.

    Leave a comment:


  • Daredevil
    replied
    Originally posted by fishboy202 View Post
    hey, i dont know if this fourum is still up but i have a game going on now where there is a gargoyle prince, which is causing some interesting friends and enemies arising. the gm has had to create some higher level powers as it ends at 5 for me so i wondered if youd like to see em ?
    Sure. Why not?

    Leave a comment:


  • fishboy202
    replied
    hey, i dont know if this fourum is still up but i have a game going on now where there is a gargoyle prince, which is causing some interesting friends and enemies arising. the gm has had to create some higher level powers as it ends at 5 for me so i wondered if youd like to see em ?

    Leave a comment:


  • Just John, Forever...
    replied
    Originally posted by Matt the Bruins fan View Post
    Most of the gargoyle-specific rituals eventually get internalized as the Visceratika discipline, don't they?
    Yup. That's an example of how a discipline can be developed over time (in this case, via Thaumaturgical experimentation).

    Leave a comment:


  • Matt the Bruins fan
    replied
    Most of the gargoyle-specific rituals eventually get internalized as the Visceratika discipline, don't they?

    Leave a comment:

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