Dominate and Generation

[Archivist]

V20 Dark Ages (public draft) says "...one cannot Dominate another Cainite of thicker blood ... characters cannot use Dominate on characters of lower Generations..." but V20 doesn't mention generation on p. 151.

RAW, can you dominate people with lower generation? If so, is there any penalty?

[BenjCano]

It's on page 158 of V20: "It is impossible to Dominate another Kindred who is of stronger Blood. The vampire must be of an equal or higher Generation than the target for the powers to be effective."

[Talvas]

Not to be that Necro guy, but if the original question is can a higher gen dominate a lower gen, by the book you must be higher gen or equal to your target. So 13th can dominate 10th and 10th cannot dominate 13th. I know thats wrong but thats how it sounds.

[Kael03]

Other way around. Lower generation means thicker blood, as the generation is how many steps removed from Caine a particular vampire is. A 13th generation cannot dominate a 10th generation, but it can dominate a 14th and higher generation.

[Chaifi]

In my V5 game we are discussing changing it so that you can dominate anybody, The difficulty would increase to 1 plus blood potency.

[thebiglarpnerd]

In my V5 game we are discussing changing it so that you can dominate anybody, The difficulty would increase to 1 plus blood potency.

V5 allows you to dominate anyone, but a lower gen can spend a WP point to just cancel the Dominate of a higher gen with no roll.

[Talvas]

It's on page 158 of V20: "It is impossible to Dominate another Kindred who is of stronger Blood. The vampire must be of an equal or higher Generation than the target for the powers to be effective."

That quote is from the V20 it says higher or equal not lower or equal to the target. I know the rule, it makes sense that you cant but someone messed up when they wrote higher on page 158 of the V20

Is Caines generation higher or lower? Higher in power. Lower in number. For example.

[Monalfie]

Other way around. Lower generation means thicker blood, as the generation is how many steps removed from Caine a particular vampire is. A 13th generation cannot dominate a 10th generation, but it can dominate a 14th and higher generation.

Clearly just a typo based on the context.

Vampires: It is impossible to Dominate another Kindred who is of stronger Blood. The vampire must be of an equal or higher Generation than the target for the powers to be effective. Scholars of the Kindred condition suspect that this is one of the protections. Caine put in place to protect himself from the whims of his willful childer. A faction of those who believe this theory also maintain that this implies that Caine himself employed the Discipline of Dominate.

[Pnizzle]

V5 allows you to dominate anyone, but a lower gen can spend a WP point to just cancel the Dominate of a higher gen with no roll.

Is that the only change? I’d imagine a bunch of neonates trying to break someone’s mind until their willpower caves in. The willpower economy would get wrecked.

I’m thinking that +1 difficulty boost per generation sounds like a good fix.

[thebiglarpnerd]

Is that the only change? I’d imagine a bunch of neonates trying to break someone’s mind until their willpower caves in. The willpower economy would get wrecked.

I’m thinking that +1 difficulty boost per generation sounds like a good fix.

Yes, that's the only change to generation's effect on Dominate.

+1 difficulty boost is going to be a bit funky because of the rolling and margin rules; essentially the person will always have <X> automatic successes on their roll, so the threshold required is at that point, margin of <gen difference> + 1 success more than the target. There's a point when it becomes a statistical improbability with really low-gen vampires unless you're crit-fishing, and hoping they don't crit on their response.

Considering how few things you actually spend WP on, the WP economy isn't 'wrecked' you just have to weigh risk vs. reward, like all things in this system.

[Kael03]

Adding difficulty based on gen difference has potential for metagaming shenanigans. We've seen meths posing as higher gens to hide themselves (Helena being a prime example). Arikel is even rumored to be posing as a servant. If the player knows there is a 6 generation difference, theres potential that the character can suddenly know the difference without rituals.

[PazuzuAxelf]

Adding difficulty based on gen difference has potential for metagaming shenanigans. We've seen meths posing as higher gens to hide themselves (Helena being a prime example). Arikel is even rumored to be posing as a servant. If the player knows there is a 6 generation difference, theres potential that the character can suddenly know the difference without rituals.

That's what is commonly called meta-gaming.

If it is truly a worry, make the roll for them and narrarate the result. You don't need to tell them why.

[Black Flag]

That's what is commonly called meta-gaming.

If it is truly a worry, make the roll for them and narrarate the result. You don't need to tell them why.

Or just go with it and let them wonder why it didn’t work when they felt so confident thst it would. I mean, they’ve gotta find out somehow, right?

[Pnizzle]

That, or the npc makes their awareness roll, realizes the player is using dominate on them and “lets them boss them around” until they get tired of their BS.

[Black Flag]

That, or the npc makes their awareness roll, realizes the player is using dominate on them and “lets them boss them around” until they get tired of their BS.

Also works.

Damn those slippery elders. They’re even manipulating us from below now.