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Dominate and Generation

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  • Archivist
    started a topic Dominate and Generation

    Dominate and Generation

    V20 Dark Ages (public draft) says "...one cannot Dominate another Cainite of thicker blood ... characters cannot use Dominate on characters of lower Generations..." but V20 doesn't mention generation on p. 151.

    RAW, can you dominate people with lower generation? If so, is there any penalty?

  • Illithid
    replied
    Originally posted by Pnizzle View Post
    This leads me to ask. How can a Prince ensure he doesn’t get swayed? I ponder if maybe a Justicar or inner circle member uses lvl 4 conditioning and the lvl 6 loyalty dominate disciplines. That’s a +5 difficulty increase plus a willpower drain to all further dominate attackers. Would that be logical?
    Willpower is also the damage you take if you lose.
    And a Prince has the most damage to dish out socially!

    But the way a Prince avoids it,
    It starts with having a Seneshal do most of the talking to the plebs, filtering who gets to see the Prince, so the prince is now limited on the amount of social attacks they can face.
    The Prince could only accept one person at a time, could attack back to drain their resolve. They could also order a sherrif/seneshal/keeper or Harpy to deal with the person, or just leave so there's no opportunity to be attacked.....
    Pnizzle - No level 6s in V5 any more.

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  • Pnizzle
    replied
    So I reran this elder vs Noob scenario and they could get wiped without some protection.
    A friend of mine told me about presence powers doing the same thing. They all widdled them down till he couldn’t resist anymore. Awe, dread gaze, and entrancement can be bad if the attacker gets lucky on a Hail Mary tactic. High risk high reward. But it could be epic.

    This leads me to ask. How can a Prince ensure he doesn’t get swayed? I ponder if maybe a Justicar or inner circle member uses lvl 4 conditioning and the lvl 6 loyalty dominate disciplines. That’s a +5 difficulty increase plus a willpower drain to all further dominate attackers. Would that be logical?
    Last edited by Pnizzle; 01-02-2019, 08:45 PM.

    Leave a comment:


  • Black Flag
    replied
    Originally posted by Illithid View Post
    Personally I don't like them, but there would be sensitive situations where it's not advisable.
    In seriousness, I can indeed see it as an edge case thing, where in this particular situation you don’t want any unforeseen consequences. In that case spending willpower to keep the hangry Beast in check seems appropriate.

    Leave a comment:


  • Illithid
    replied
    Originally posted by Black Flag View Post
    But messy crits are a large part of the fun. Can’t imagine spending points to avoid one.
    Personally I don't like them, but there would be sensitive situations where it's not advisable.

    Leave a comment:


  • Black Flag
    replied
    But messy crits are a large part of the fun. Can’t imagine spending points to avoid one.

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  • Illithid
    replied
    Originally posted by thebiglarpnerd View Post
    Considering how few things you actually spend WP on, the WP economy isn't 'wrecked' you just have to weigh risk vs. reward, like all things in this system.
    How few? I call balderdash sir
    You have less and need to spend to reroll for success/or prevent bestial failure/or succeed less so you don't messy crit.

    Kael03 Metagamers gonna Metagame.

    I did have a pretty weak blood character who an elder thought was thicker than him for a while because of a failed roll against me, thanks to Iron will or the like (15+ years ago)
    It was an interesting thing to pop up.

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  • Muad'Dib
    replied
    Originally posted by Kael03 View Post
    (...) Arikel is even rumored to be posing as a servant.
    Where is the written ?

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  • Black Flag
    replied
    Originally posted by Pnizzle View Post
    That, or the npc makes their awareness roll, realizes the player is using dominate on them and “lets them boss them around” until they get tired of their BS.
    Also works.

    Damn those slippery elders. They’re even manipulating us from below now.

    Leave a comment:


  • Pnizzle
    replied
    That, or the npc makes their awareness roll, realizes the player is using dominate on them and “lets them boss them around” until they get tired of their BS.

    Leave a comment:


  • Black Flag
    replied
    Originally posted by PazuzuAxelf View Post

    That's what is commonly called meta-gaming.

    If it is truly a worry, make the roll for them and narrarate the result. You don't need to tell them why.
    Or just go with it and let them wonder why it didn’t work when they felt so confident thst it would. I mean, they’ve gotta find out somehow, right?

    Leave a comment:


  • PazuzuAxelf
    replied
    Originally posted by Kael03 View Post
    Adding difficulty based on gen difference has potential for metagaming shenanigans. We've seen meths posing as higher gens to hide themselves (Helena being a prime example). Arikel is even rumored to be posing as a servant. If the player knows there is a 6 generation difference, theres potential that the character can suddenly know the difference without rituals.
    That's what is commonly called meta-gaming.

    If it is truly a worry, make the roll for them and narrarate the result. You don't need to tell them why.

    Leave a comment:


  • Kael03
    replied
    Adding difficulty based on gen difference has potential for metagaming shenanigans. We've seen meths posing as higher gens to hide themselves (Helena being a prime example). Arikel is even rumored to be posing as a servant. If the player knows there is a 6 generation difference, theres potential that the character can suddenly know the difference without rituals.

    Leave a comment:


  • thebiglarpnerd
    replied
    Originally posted by Pnizzle View Post


    Is that the only change? I’d imagine a bunch of neonates trying to break someone’s mind until their willpower caves in. The willpower economy would get wrecked.

    I’m thinking that +1 difficulty boost per generation sounds like a good fix.

    Yes, that's the only change to generation's effect on Dominate.

    +1 difficulty boost is going to be a bit funky because of the rolling and margin rules; essentially the person will always have <X> automatic successes on their roll, so the threshold required is at that point, margin of <gen difference> + 1 success more than the target. There's a point when it becomes a statistical improbability with really low-gen vampires unless you're crit-fishing, and hoping they don't crit on their response.

    Considering how few things you actually spend WP on, the WP economy isn't 'wrecked' you just have to weigh risk vs. reward, like all things in this system.

    Leave a comment:


  • Pnizzle
    replied
    Originally posted by thebiglarpnerd View Post

    V5 allows you to dominate anyone, but a lower gen can spend a WP point to just cancel the Dominate of a higher gen with no roll.

    Is that the only change? I’d imagine a bunch of neonates trying to break someone’s mind until their willpower caves in. The willpower economy would get wrecked.

    I’m thinking that +1 difficulty boost per generation sounds like a good fix.

    Leave a comment:

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