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Deadliest supernatural warrior: the setup

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  • Cheesefondue
    started a topic Deadliest supernatural warrior: the setup

    Deadliest supernatural warrior: the setup



    A long, long time ago, a contributor on this forum promised to upgrade his combat algorithm to allow many different types of strategies (including clinches) in a battle between werewolves and vampires.

    That contributor is me, and that promise is now coming to pass, after a long period lost failing to get neural nets to work.

    I'll be comparing the combat power of:

    Humans, Wraiths, Risen, Hunters, Demon, Mummies, Ghouls, Dhampirs, Kuei-Jin, Mage, Changelings, Vampires, Werewolves, some Fera, and... one mystery guest. It should be quite exciting ^_^


    And at the end of it, I'll reveal the ultimate secret of combat victory in the world of darkness... (which may be, or may not be, what you're expecting)


    The rest of this post is just explaining the rules and assumptions I'm using for this battle. If any of the rules seem unfair or objectionable, the time to object is now, because it takes several days (at least) to run each battle. Most of the rules are standard, others are ones I'd had to piece together, some are just there to make the decision tree tractable.
    Last edited by Cheesefondue; 05-24-2017, 06:08 AM.

  • 11twiggins
    replied
    Originally posted by BenjCano View Post
    Lasombra Hentai Death-Machine

    Str 1
    Dex 1
    Sta 5
    Manipulation 5

    Occult (obtenebration) 5

    Obtenebration 5 (will always be in Tenebrous form. if not allowed, will go into Tenebrous form during prep round
    8th Generation

    Relevant Merits: Discipline prodigy (Obtenebration) The difficulty for any use of this Discipline is reduced by 1 to a minimum of 4.

    Preparation: cover area of battle in Shroud of Night

    Tactics:
    1. Spam Arms of the Abyss
    2. Direct x Arms to hold the opponent, with x=half the number of Arms summoned, until the total number of grappling arms =the number of actions the opponent can achieve in a turn.
    2a. Do not forget bonuses for attacking helpless opponent
    2b. Do not forget multi-attacker penalties for opponent.
    3. Remaining arms use constrict melee attacks for 7L damage per arm per turn
    4. Win
    Make sure to put 1 of your starting dots in Potence for this. Also, as preparation, blood pump your Stamina up to 6. Since Diablerie is a cinch with this build, and encouraged in the Sabbat, once you hit 7th Generation you can push your Stamina up to 7 for the scene.

    Speaking of Generation, Generation: 5 is a great investment. At 8th Generation you can spend 3 BP each turn to fuel your arms, making them stronger or more dextrous, or longer.

    Leave a comment:


  • KRB
    replied
    I know this is beyond late to the discussion, but the cheesiest thing i can think of is a Nagaraja with 5 dots in the Vitreous Path Necromancy, the Mortuario Merit, and 4 dots in the Memento di Morte background. The relevant stats would be Dex 4, Wits 5 for initiative, and Manipulation 5/Occult 4.

    The prep turn would be using Night Cry on self (lowering all difficulties by 2), and then blasting the opponent with Night Cry in combat. This would be a 13 dice attack (Manipulation + Occult + Memento di Morte), against difficulty THREE (initial DC 6, -1 for the Mortuario merit, and -2 from Night Cry). Each success causes an aggravated wound...

    Oops, edit: Memento drops to 4, Occult goes to 4 (from a 5/3 split) with a specialization in Necromancy. There are just enough points to do that.
    Last edited by KRB; 02-26-2016, 06:19 PM.

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  • Bones
    replied
    What about a mage from the order of the Celestial Choir. With access to Prime and Forces couldn't he make his whole body glow with divine light? Crank up the light to the level of a nuclear explosion and bye bye La Sombra.

    Leave a comment:


  • Cheesefondue
    replied
    Originally posted by BenjCano View Post
    Fair enough. It's a moot point anyway, since HDM isn't competing, but prep is to Tenebrous unless the opponent can use fire, in which case Shroud, then Tenebrous.

    It's even more of a moot point, but the prep round is done without knowing which opponent is there ;-)

    Leave a comment:


  • BenjCano
    replied
    Fair enough. It's a moot point anyway, since HDM isn't competing, but prep is to Tenebrous unless the opponent can use fire, in which case Shroud, then Tenebrous.

    Leave a comment:


  • Cheesefondue
    replied
    Originally posted by BenjCano View Post
    Cheese said that there is exactly 1 round to prep, but that things with other forms with indefinite duration (Kuei-jin and shifters) could show up in that form, so I was taking the same liberty to have the HDM arrive in Tenebrous form.
    I removed that. The shifters have to spend rage to get an immediate transformation (unless they have no other action to do during their prep round), and the Kuei-Jin with demon form have two rounds of combat before their transformation completes.
    Last edited by Cheesefondue; 12-04-2015, 06:40 AM.

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  • nothing
    replied
    Originally posted by Marcus Smythe View Post
    On review, it appears Ben is correct. Any source of aggravated damage or 'supernatural attack' will have full effect on the vampire in mistform. Meanwhile, Tenebrous Form (Obtenebration 5) specifically calls out the vampire to be 'Immune to ALL PHYSICAL DAMAGE' and able to still summon tentacles, using its invulnerable self as a point of origin! So the Gangrel is being gnawed to death by neonates, helplessly, while the Lasombra is summoning swarms of a black, noodly limburger/fomunda/gouda hybrid.

    Ben appears to be absolutely correct on the wording of the rules as written. Needless to say, I consider these rules to be SOMEWHAT dumber than a bag of bloody hammers, but hey... Its Clan Lasombra. Did we expect anything else?
    Marcus Smythe It all only really works though if you interpret the rules to read that multiple uses of Arms of the Abyss "stack" rather than replace with each summon. I mean, it still works if one reads it as "replaces," but it's a little bit less of a total onslaught.

    Like, it might take the Lasombra 2 or even maybe 3 rounds to completely kill the opponent.

    Cheers!

    Leave a comment:


  • idpersona
    replied
    Originally posted by BenjCano View Post
    But really, could Firebug set someone's hair on fire? Hair is flammable, and it's not "worn" or "carried." But I think we'd both say no to that one.
    I would say no to that one, but I frequently disagree with book's wording and tend to run my games with a healthy dose of common sense. I certainly stick more with the spirit of the game instead of strict adherence to the wording.
    But the white room fight scenario doesn't seem to care about intent so much as the system.

    Leave a comment:


  • BenjCano
    replied
    Originally posted by idpersona View Post
    Correct. But if Vampires themselves are flammable, then it is perfectly acceptable to use them as a target by the letter of the power.
    Unless you argue that the body is a meat suit the soul is wearing.

    But really, could Firebug set someone's hair on fire? Hair is flammable, and it's not "worn" or "carried." But I think we'd both say no to that one.
    Last edited by BenjCano; 12-03-2015, 05:55 PM.

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  • idpersona
    replied
    Originally posted by BenjCano View Post
    The way it reads to me is that even powers that negate or mitigate blindness penalties to not work in an area affected by Shroud, because it's sooper-dooper darkness.
    I agree that is a valid interpretation, but I do think it could be argued for both penalties and bonuses.[/QUOTE]

    Originally posted by BenjCano View Post
    Cheese said that there is exactly 1 round to prep, but that things with other forms with indefinite duration (Kuei-jin and shifters) could show up in that form, so I was taking the same liberty to have the HDM arrive in Tenebrous form.

    If the HDM is allowed to show up in Tenebrous, same way a Garou is allowed to show up all Crinos-ed, then prep round is devoted to throwing down a Shroud. I don't know if it's more advantageous to take that single action, or to perform multiple actions and do Shroud/Arms or Shroud/Arms/Arms.
    I must've missed that part of the rules. I was assuming the Changers were just spending rage to shift.

    If Tenebrous is not allowed at the start, then prep round is devoted to going Tenebrous, unless it's more advantageous to Shroud, then Tenebrous, then Arms.


    Originally posted by BenjCano View Post
    Doesn't Firebug not affect things that are worn or carried?
    Correct. But if Vampires themselves are flammable, then it is perfectly acceptable to use them as a target by the letter of the power.


    Originally posted by BenjCano View Post
    It's more than 75% likely that the Shroud is 40 feet or more in diameter, and 60% likely that it's 80 feet or more in diameter. I had thought that the room was a generic 30 foot cube on all sides, making going outside the Shroud's reach impossible. If we're starting to take proximity into account, then we should also ask ourselves how far away our fighters start.
    Close enough for any combatant to close distance and attack in 1 round. I would also assume the entire room was covered by any use of Shroud.

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  • BenjCano
    replied
    Originally posted by Saur Ops Specialist View Post
    Fuck it. Just have the character toss huge logs into the darkness zone from outside of it and open up with Dragon's Breath in hopes of catching the vampire. If we're going by the last time its heat was listed in the first edition player's guide, that would be difficulty 9 to soak. If they're long enough, perhaps you could even just engineer a crude lean-to that's built to collapse over most of the shadow zone.

    It's more than 75% likely that the Shroud is 40 feet or more in diameter, and 60% likely that it's 80 feet or more in diameter. I had thought that the room was a generic 30 foot cube on all sides, making going outside the Shroud's reach impossible. If we're starting to take proximity into account, then we should also ask ourselves how far away our fighters start.

    Leave a comment:


  • BenjCano
    replied
    Originally posted by idpersona View Post
    .
    So do you interpret the wording to mean that those powers do not work and they suffer blindness penalties, or that the powers (Senses, Tongue, Eyes, etc.) do work and the bonuses and penalties work against each other.
    The way it reads to me is that even powers that negate or mitigate blindness penalties to not work in an area affected by Shroud, because it's sooper-dooper darkness.

    This is assuming everything is up and running. What is the round to round plan here? So far as I can figure, round 1 (the prep round) is using Tenebrous form. Round 2 would be Shroud? Round 3 is Arms? or are you doubling up on some rounds? It would seem that is the Lasombra loses initiative even once, they might be dead.
    Cheese said that there is exactly 1 round to prep, but that things with other forms with indefinite duration (Kuei-jin and shifters) could show up in that form, so I was taking the same liberty to have the HDM arrive in Tenebrous form.

    If the HDM is allowed to show up in Tenebrous, same way a Garou is allowed to show up all Crinos-ed, then prep round is devoted to throwing down a Shroud. I don't know if it's more advantageous to take that single action, or to perform multiple actions and do Shroud/Arms or Shroud/Arms/Arms.

    If Tenebrous is not allowed at the start, then prep round is devoted to going Tenebrous, unless it's more advantageous to Shroud, then Tenebrous, then Arms.

    Are vampires considered flammable? if so, the Twitcher gift firebug would work wonders.
    Doesn't Firebug not affect things that are worn or carried?

    Leave a comment:


  • idpersona
    replied
    Dammit, I lost a whole post, so this will be much shorter responses to each point:
    Originally posted by BenjCano View Post
    I'll put the relevant quote here. V20, page 189. Relevant parts bolded:
    The tarry mass actually extinguishes light sources it engulfs (with the exception of fire), and muffles sounds until they are indistinguishable. Those within the cloud lose all sense of sight and feel as though they’ve been immersed in pitch. Sound also warps and distorts within the cloud, making it nearly impossible to accomplish anything (+2 difficulty, as per Blind Fighting on p. 274). Even those possessed of Heightened Senses, Eyes of the Beast, Tongue of the Asp, and similar powers suffer the penalty for blindness due to the unnatural darkness. Additionally, being surrounded by the Shroud of Night reduces Stamina-based dice pools by two dice, as the murk smothers and agitates the victims.This effect is not cumulative with Shadow Play, although targets asphyxiate as per Shadow Play if they reach 0 Stamina; more than one unfortunate mortal has “drowned” in darkness.
    Thank you much for the quote.
    So do you interpret the wording to mean that those powers do not work and they suffer blindness penalties, or that the powers (Senses, Tongue, Eyes, etc.) do work and the bonuses and penalties work against each other.

    Originally posted by BenjCano View Post
    It seems a bit churlish in a thought experiment designed to find an optimal strategy in the World of Darkness roleplaying game for combat situations to complain if there actually does turn out to be an optimal strategy. You know, in chess, the Queen's pawn opening results in a victory for White in 56% of games. Does that mean that the Queen's pawn opening just kind of overpowers everything else?
    I'm not complaining at all so much as sharing my opinion on this as I go over the systems of it. I think this goes a long way to point out a weakness in the system. I agree that this strategy could work extremely well.

    Originally posted by BenjCano View Post
    You're dodging at DC 10, though, per the rules on multiple opponents. Cheesefondue said that his Cheatin' Caitiff had 13 dice in his Strength+Brawl pool. Well, at DC 10, failures or botches are 60% likely to occur on any dice roll of 13 dice. Meanwhile, the tentacles are only at DC 6 to establish their hold, or attack.Even if we bump them down to 5 dice, failure or botch is only 15% likely to occur. At 7 dice, that's only 10% likely. At 9, 6%. At 11, right around 3.5%.
    This is assuming everything is up and running. What is the round to round plan here? So far as I can figure, round 1 (the prep round) is using Tenebrous form. Round 2 would be Shroud? Round 3 is Arms? or are you doubling up on some rounds? It would seem that is the Lasombra loses initiative even once, they might be dead.

    Also a random question occurred to me. Tenebrous form makes you immune to physical damage. can Changers still damage you since they are half spirit? Generally this is an assumed no, but given the comparative weakness of Mistform, this is worth considering.

    Originally posted by BenjCano View Post
    Then allow me to present one of the Flaws possessed by the HDM that I didn't think it necessary to spell out before now, since none of the entries to the competition made using fire a priority:
    It is hilarious to see a 5 point flaw that makes you all but immune to normal fire damage.


    Are vampires considered flammable? if so, the Twitcher gift firebug would work wonders.
    Last edited by idpersona; 12-03-2015, 05:06 PM.

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  • Saur Ops Specialist
    replied
    Fuck it. Just have the character toss huge logs into the darkness zone from outside of it and open up with Dragon's Breath in hopes of catching the vampire. If we're going by the last time its heat was listed in the first edition player's guide, that would be difficulty 9 to soak. If they're long enough, perhaps you could even just engineer a crude lean-to that's built to collapse over most of the shadow zone.

    Leave a comment:

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