Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Deadliest supernatural warrior: oh the humanity

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #31
    Few in any splat shine the most in direct combat. Even werewolves work best pulling out a lot of tricks before actually engaging in combat. Those exercises take in account only a little slice of the game.

    Still, it is as true as any other part of it, and the exercises very informative in their own context.


    Sorry if I seem too straightforward, or if I don't get you. Autism isn't a forgiving condition.

    Comment


    • #32
      The story so far: Demon, Dhampir, Changeling:



      Now:



      The Demon, being of eternal yet broken light, crouched, weapon in hand, his malevolent gaze fixed on a trio of his most hated enemies. He pounced!

      Slash! He missed!

      Slash! He missed!

      Slash! He almost didn’t miss!

      And the three flies spiralled lazily away from his swatter.

      "I hate those buggers! Just because there's a whole mountain of corpses, doesn’t mean they should be here."

      ****

      Meanwhile, in the underworld, a wraith looked back in annoyance as his corpus was dissolved once again by the slashing demon. "Right!" said Will the Wraith. "I'm here trying to do an honest day's work - feeding on the local hate and the fear and reforging any ghost I find into useful slaves or trinkets - and that demon keeps on hitting me with his fly-swatter. One more time, and I'm coming out to get him."

      "Er," said the ghost of Helen the (ex-)Hunter, currently weighed down by Will's chains. "What's this about 'reforging'?"

      "Quiet, future lawn ornament! Where was I? Ah yes, the honest slaver trying to make a decent living."

      Will bursts out to a musical song, to the tune of "Modern Major General", about the difficulty and injustice faced by hard working slavers everywhere. Meanwhile, Helen had a quick conference with her Shadow:

      "What do I have to do to convince you to let us Rise in our body again?"

      The shadow considered the situation, and Will's ongoing wailing.

      "You-drive-a-hard-bargain," Helen's shadow said, "oh-well-you've-tricked-and-convinced-me. Let's-bloody-well-get-out-of-here. Hurry!"

      ****

      Helen's body rose again, sword still clutched in her grip. "How about that," she said, "now *I* can soak lethal!"

      "...of a Modern Gladiator Maker... Wait," Will said, rapidly embodying behind her. "You're mine." Then his undead eyes focused on the bemused demon... and the hated fly-swatter. "You! You're mine!”
      Last edited by Cheesefondue; 05-24-2017, 06:47 AM.

      Comment


      • #33
        So now it's the turn of the Wraith and Risen to chance their arm (technically, the rules forbid starting characters to have level 4 arconai, so Wraiths can't embody, making the combat pointless. In my infinite generosity, I allowed the wraiths to have Embody).

        The simple Wraith is the same as the simple Risen:
        Physical: 2/3/3
        Brawl/Melee/Athletics: 2/2/2
        Wits 3
        Willpower 4
        Sword +2 Strength, Lethal
        Pathos 5

        Wraiths have 10 hit points, can spend pathos to heal, and don't suffer any wound penalties. Will this be enough to overcome the opposition? They soak lethal, and may or may not soak aggravated - I'll return to this later. For the moment, assume they don't soak aggravated.

        The strong Wraith was:
        Physical: 4/5/3
        Brawl/Melee/Athletics: 3/5/3
        Wits 5
        Willpower 8
        Pathos 10

        The Risen have access to some vampiric disciplines, so the strong Risen was stated as:
        Physical: 3/5/3
        Brawl/Melee/Athletics: 3/4/3
        Wits 5
        Willpower 6
        Pathos 10
        Celerity 2

        Basically sacrificing strength, willpower and melee for 2 levels of celerity.


        All wraith and risen are offered 5 shadow die by their shadows, which they will take.


        So, how did it go?

        Among the simples, the wraith/risen's extra hit points propelled them into second place - in front of the Ghoul, but behind the %$@!!$% Dhampir. This was not a rock-paper-scissors situation - the level against most characters was pretty much the same. Here they are against the Simple Changeling:



        The simple wraith/risen still loses to the strong human (30/70 roughly), so all the stronger characters still beat all the simple ones.

        Now, it's important we don't focus too much on the broken/strong characters, as this can give us a distorted view of the different splats…

        Oh, who am I kidding? The power characters are fun :-) Here are their results:

        The first thing to note is that the Strong Wraith almost beats the Strong Risen one on one. I sacrificed a lot of strength to give the Risen celerity, so the Wraith would force a clinch, and, with ten hits+healing with pathos vs ten hits+healing with pathos (and pathos needed for celerity), the stronger wraith could often win. But celerity still came through, in the end.

        The Demon is still easily top, with the Changeling a clear fourth, followed by Wraith and Ghoul. But who is second? The Risen has a higher average victory than the Dhampir, but the Vampire-spawn defeats the reanimated corpse one on one. I'll call it a draw, waiting for their performance against other splats.



        What if we assume that the Changelings or Wraiths/Risen could soak aggravated? This makes a difference only against the Demon (the only source of aggravated damage so far), as follows (the red numbers are the difference made):



        It makes some difference, especially among the weaker splats, but doesn’t change the order much.



        Next, enter the magical mystic mages! If you can bend reality to your will, can you also hold your own in brawl?
        Last edited by Cheesefondue; 05-24-2017, 06:49 AM.

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by Cheesefondue View Post
          So now it's the turn of the Wraith and Risen(...)
          Do you have access to The Risen source book? Because there's a few, ah, quirks you might want to incorporate (or not), mostly involving the Shadow.

          Cheers!


          If you don't use an Oxford comma, I feel bad for you, son,
          'Cuz I got ninety-nine problems, but clarity ain't one.

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by nothing View Post

            Do you have access to The Risen source book? Because there's a few, ah, quirks you might want to incorporate (or not), mostly involving the Shadow.

            Cheers!

            I've used 5 shadow die - is there more?

            Comment


            • #36
              in this scenario is the Wraith just using Embody and then fighting the enemies in melee combat?


              Comment


              • #37
                Cheesefondue I'm not sure how you're handling dice pool penalties due to lost Health levels, but, like Wraiths, Risen don't take any penalties unless it's from Aggravated Damage (fire, Werewolf claws & teeth, Vampire teeth), and even then it operates differently - notably, that Risen are -1 die per Aggravated level, down to a minimum of 2 (so they would always have at least 2 dice), and heal Aggravated like any other damage type.

                Then there's this: Risen who lose all Corpus but still have Pathos are not defeated - they're unconscious until they start to heal, for a time based on a Stamina+Fortitude roll, difficulty 10-the Risen's current Pathos (and the twist on that is the Psyche may let the Shadow loose, making the difficulty 10-current Angst, for possibly an almost instantaneous wake-up). When the Shadow is driving, they may spend Angst like Pathos to heal, power Disciplines, etc. In addition, Risen that still have Corpus but have used all their Pathos undergo Catharsis - where they may (in)voluntarily allow the Shadow control (along with the Shadow's untouched reserves of Angst). In fact, a Risen is only completely defeated when both their Pathos and Corpus have been drained, a difficult feat when they can "tag-out" with their Shadow.

                Finally, Risen are one of the rare examples where Fortitude wins out over Celerity - their key attributes are that they're relentless and can take a beating.

                (Finally-finally, if we're also including Merits & Flaws, there's Innate Vampiric Ability: 3 points, that basically makes Disciplines cost "in-Clan" prices for the Risen.)

                Cheers!

                Edited to add: All this, of course, should also include that a Wraith and Risen may replenish their Pathos in context. Helen-the-ex-Hunter-and-now-Risen may have a Passion of "Win the fight (Revenge) 5" where she may replenish up to 5 points of Pathos per scene by rolling a number of dice equal to the Passions' rating at a difficulty of 6 (if she is engaging in the action; 8 if she is observing others). Wraiths and Risen have 10 points of varying Passions (So Helen could have two 5 point Passions, three 3 point ones and a 1 point, etc., and each Passion may be rolled once per scene to "refuel'). And finally-finally-finally, as per Buried Secrets, the Shadow may "cash-in" a point of Permanent Angst to completely refill their Temporary Angst pool, and there is no limit to how many times they may do this (barring their last point of Permanent Angst, of course).
                Last edited by nothing; 12-21-2015, 02:39 AM.


                If you don't use an Oxford comma, I feel bad for you, son,
                'Cuz I got ninety-nine problems, but clarity ain't one.

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by idpersona View Post
                  in this scenario is the Wraith just using Embody and then fighting the enemies in melee combat?
                  Yes. And I know that's not the smartest way of doing things, not by a long shot :-)


                  Originally posted by nothing View Post
                  Cheesefondue I'm not sure how you're handling dice pool penalties due to lost Health levels, but, like Wraiths, Risen don't take any penalties unless it's from Aggravated Damage (fire, Werewolf claws & teeth, Vampire teeth), and even then it operates differently - notably, that Risen are -1 die per Aggravated level, down to a minimum of 2 (so they would always have at least 2 dice), and heal Aggravated like any other damage type.

                  [...]
                  Thanks for your various points and suggestions! I actually missed the fact that Risen took dice penalties from aggravated damage, so they are slightly stronger than they should be against these types of opponents. I looked through the Risen book, and couldn't find anything about them healing Aggravated damage, though.

                  The other ideas are interesting, but I consider that once the Risen is down, their opponent spends the time tearing their corpse to shreds, etc..., so the combat is basically over (the same argument goes for Mummies - they never return within a relevant time-frame).

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    I'd say that if you do incorporate the changes, the only way to fully off a Risen would be to deal it 10 unsoaked points of aggravated damage, which is pretty much impossible. I think Risen break your combat model the most so far.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by Herbert_West View Post
                      I'd say that if you do incorporate the changes, the only way to fully off a Risen would be to deal it 10 unsoaked points of aggravated damage, which is pretty much impossible. I think Risen break your combat model the most so far.

                      The Risen rules are infuriatingly vague, but it seems that the Risen has to spend pathos (or angst) to heal themselves upon reawakening (if this was not the case, then the Risen could just stay at 10 pathos, let themselves be cut to pieces, and instantly resurrect, again and again). This cuts down the advantages of this method a lot. As for handing over to the shadow... I'm very wary of combat solutions where the Psyche hands over to the Shadow and thus the Risen "wins easily". Empowering your greatest enemy is not winning (for instance, the Shadow may just wait till the other combatant has left before resurrecting - they have no reason to fight the same fight the Psyche was).

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Risen heal Aggravated Damage just like any other damage type - to quote the book, to them it's just "structural damage" and the only additional disadvantage is the -1/level. It's one of the things that make Risen so unrelenting, like a (the original) Terminator or Jason from the Friday the 13th movies.

                        But looking a the book again, a Risen would need 5+ successes on a Stamina+Fortitude roll (difficulty 10-current Pathos/Angst) to pop up after a single turn if they were to lose all Corpus but still have Pathos to stay in the fight (and if the difficulty on the Stamina+Fortitude roll is 0 or 1, they come back instantly). 4 success allows them to awaken after a scene, and since this scene technically never ends...

                        I would also advocate that the Shadow has a vested interest in winning, in Helen's narrative you've provided, but then that would just be me squabbling. I do think that a Shadow-driven Risen is much more dangerous than a Psyche controlled one, especially since Shadows still have access to some Thorns while in Catharsis, most notably Shadow Traits (2 points per additional dot of any Attribute or Ability, only available during Catharsis), possibly giving the Risen up to 5 extra points in Brawl or even Stamina (or any combination thereof).

                        Cheers!
                        Last edited by nothing; 12-21-2015, 04:18 PM.


                        If you don't use an Oxford comma, I feel bad for you, son,
                        'Cuz I got ninety-nine problems, but clarity ain't one.

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          The preview systems chapter from Wr20 clarifies that wraiths can soak everything (including aggravated damage). Hope that helps.

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by adambeyoncelowe View Post
                            The preview systems chapter from Wr20 clarifies that wraiths can soak everything (including aggravated damage). Hope that helps.
                            Doesn't make too much of a difference to this fight though. With the fighting strategy/style being chosen, this fight treats Wraiths mostly as a type of enhanced human.
                            Extra health levels, no wound penalties, some extra dice. But otherwise they fight in the same manner that the human did without much in the way of using powers (Arcanoi) for any real combat advantage.


                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by idpersona View Post
                              Doesn't make too much of a difference to this fight though. With the fighting strategy/style being chosen, this fight treats Wraiths mostly as a type of enhanced human.
                              Extra health levels, no wound penalties, some extra dice. But otherwise they fight in the same manner that the human did without much in the way of using powers (Arcanoi) for any real combat advantage.
                              Yeah, the Wraith should probably have at least Tempus Fugit to get in some extra actions, though I'm not sure we're allowing level 5 powers? But most Arcanoi don't work well on the Skinlands side, though I'd have to double check to see which ones.

                              Cheers!
                              Last edited by nothing; 12-21-2015, 04:40 PM.


                              If you don't use an Oxford comma, I feel bad for you, son,
                              'Cuz I got ninety-nine problems, but clarity ain't one.

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                A smart Wraith would just attack across the Shroud using any of several different Arcanoi. Outrage and Usury are the first to come to mind for me. But this doesn't really work for the fight dynamic the OP is going for.
                                On that note, Cheesefondue said that starting Wraith can't have higher than level 3 and made an exception for the Wraith here to have Embody 4. Since I haven't heard of this rule (not saying it isn't one), can you tell me where it says that?


                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X