Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Baali, were they also such viable options as they are in the Blackhand book?

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Baali, were they also such viable options as they are in the Blackhand book?

    So I was surprised with how the Baali were presented as decent player options in the book of the Black Hand. Was Path of the Hive always such an Angel of Vengeance Antihero otpion? The book is a bit wishy washy with the Baali history, particularly order of Moloch such as when they were blachhanded, such as one says they relaxed magic restrictions in 1998, one says older times when they Hanibaal joined, who has messed up stats for a supposed 7th gen what with level 8 stats and all.

    Is this a new V20 change or were Baali like this in their old Clanbook? I avoided the old clanbook because it sounded disturbing because it was a black Dog book and had a story about a medieval Pederast with a hive genitalia.

    When was the story of Moloch as a lover in Carthage first detailed?

    Honestly it sounds like Moloch has the level 9 Daimonion with the fuse with a Greater Demon power, which I am very fine with. Yes it can be apocalypse material, but eh so is a lot of things its fine.

    So Ur-Shulgi was embraced in Ashur too yeah? Is one of the Implications Ur-Shulgi could be one of the 3 Baali? Huitzilipochtli was one of the 3 Baali founders right? Wasn't he the one that killed Sam Haight or was he killed by the Sabbat Conquest Mexico?

    So lets say the Demon the Fallen Demons are some of the Baali Demons delt with, what do you think they feel about the Children?


    Really it seems they many would be skeptical how Apocalyptic the Children Awakening can be since the first was accidently killed by the first tribe.

    I do love the addition of Tzimisce as a possible founder of the Baali, while not the first mention I found of this it does seem very best description of such and quickly became one of my top Baali theories.

  • #2
    Originally posted by Eldagusto View Post
    Is this a new V20 change or were Baali like this in their old Clanbook? I avoided the old clanbook because it sounded disturbing because it was a black Dog book and had a story about a medieval Pederast with a hive genitalia.
    You're missing out. The whole point of the Baali is that they're demented, sick, and evil-to-the-bone.

    The anti-infernalist Order of Moloch is unique to V20. Its seeds were there in CB Baali, which went into some detail about Moloch's rivalry with Nergal. Moloch ultimately thought that his sibling's plan to awaken the Children was more likely to screw the Baali over than grant them ultimate power, so he opposed it out of self-interest (and then went on to convince Troile that burning babies alive was a cool thing). The Baali were pretty much irredeemably evil in CB Baali. I don't think the developers assumed that many people would be playing them, but the rules to do so were there.


    Blood and Bourbon, my New Orleans-based Vampire chronicle.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by False Epiphany View Post

      You're missing out. The whole point of the Baali is that they're demented, sick, and evil-to-the-bone.

      The anti-infernalist Order of Moloch is unique to V20. Its seeds were there in CB Baali, which went into some detail about Moloch's rivalry with Nergal. Moloch ultimately thought that his sibling's plan to awaken the Children was more likely to screw the Baali over than grant them ultimate power, so he opposed it out of self-interest (and then went on to convince Troile that burning babies alive was a cool thing). The Baali were pretty much irredeemably evil in CB Baali. I don't think the developers assumed that many people would be playing them, but the rules to do so were there.
      Road of Sin, I think, is where the Baali start to look playable - the book mentions Baali who are on the Road of Sin but not the Path of Screams, and has the Road's founder be a Baali who was apparently uninterested in the bloodline's dealing with demons, showing they could break the mould. (I think it's also an intermediate step in how Moloch's lineage is presented, with them being the ones who keep the Children asleep, and Moloch thoroughly enjoying the required atrocities. With Moloch buried in Carthage, all it would take would be a change in leadership of the lineage to modify their motivation to seeing said atrocities as a necessary evil... which is what happens in Black Hand.).


      Scion 2E: What We Know - A wiki compiling info on second edition Scion.

      Comment


      • #4
        The Road of the hive is imo still not really playable, due to the stuff they do to keep the children playable.

        On the other hand I'm not a friend of the concept that you have automatically to be evil just because of your bloodline.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by marin View Post

          Road of Sin, I think, is where the Baali start to look playable - the book mentions Baali who are on the Road of Sin but not the Path of Screams, and has the Road's founder be a Baali who was apparently uninterested in the bloodline's dealing with demons, showing they could break the mould. (I think it's also an intermediate step in how Moloch's lineage is presented, with them being the ones who keep the Children asleep, and Moloch thoroughly enjoying the required atrocities. With Moloch buried in Carthage, all it would take would be a change in leadership of the lineage to modify their motivation to seeing said atrocities as a necessary evil... which is what happens in Black Hand.).
          I feel compelled to point out that this post about the Baali is your 666th.


          Blood and Bourbon, my New Orleans-based Vampire chronicle.

          Comment


          • #6
            The Baali have been difficult to grok since the Dark Ages Clanbook: Baali, really. It was there that the whole notion of the bloodline working to lull the 'Children' to remain quiescent came up, but it wasn't articulated as clearly as in V20 The Black Hand: a Guide to the Tal'Mahe'Ra's treatment of the Molochim. In the former book, there's an almost schizoid divide between the Baali who want to keep the Sleepers from awakening and those who want to feed the sin and horror of the Sleepers' dreams, all without any explicitly stated why or how.

            It is in the book Chaining the Beast that we get a notion of the Path of the Hive as something even possibly beneficial to the world at large. In the very short write up of that morality, we get the first mention that I recall of Baali coming to Transylvania to 'sing Kupala' back to sleep. That union of the Molochim and the 'Old Clan' Tzimisce is a direct result of what is mentioned in the book, I think.

            ...Of course, take all of the above with one or more grains of salt. Yeah, one can play the Baali exactly as they appeared in the original Storytellers Handbook – as in, the very stereotypical devil-worshiper vampires – or go the other direction to the almost-excessively-nuanced version in V20 Black Hand. There's plenty of other options, of course. I particularly like the take on them from the Dark Ages book Devil's Due, but mileage always varies.


            B.I.G. Bird spreads the word: Anybody with a heart votes love

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Phaolan View Post
              I particularly like the take on them from the Dark Ages book Devil's Due, but mileage always varies.
              I need to re-read devil's Due but what was that interpertation of the Baali like?

              Comment


              • #8
                Just stating my personal opinion here but I really dislike the sudden greying of the Baali. I can understand people wanting nuanced clans etc but for me one of the factors that make grey/nuanced clans stand out is having pure clans as book ends.

                Slight Rant: It seems to be an RPG trend in general that pure evil/good factions get brought down to levels of grey and to be fair I love 'grey' factions. I think grey factions should be the majority and PC's should only rarely find a member of a pure evil/good faction. That being said a grey faction only really has meaning in my opinon if there are 'pure' factions to serve as contrast. Otherwise it becomes a matter of everyone and everything sucking in someway. There is no good to aspire too and no need to be worried about falling.

                This is why in my games Saulot was the 'pure' good 3rd Gen (or as close as vampire in WoD can come) and his clan followed his example. The Baali are almost entirely 'pure' evil as well. I find it gives the story an added oomph. Players can try to be 'good' like the Salubri (while keeping in mind the Salubri are almost extinct for a reason.) and even dark characters can go at least we are not that evil as the Baali or be worried about becoming like the Baali.

                All that being said I don't exactly forbid players from playing a Baali or Salubri however they want. A 'good' baali who turns his back on his infernal masters or a homocidal Salubri are great storys for PC's but I do make it clear that they are the exceptions. There is not an anti-villain or even anti-hero Baali faction and the villainous Salubri do not have their own clubhouse for their large number of members. I do the same thing for rogue Tremere as well. There are a few scattered around the world but they do not have a community or faction and are lonely exceptions to the rule and not even clost to being a minor minority.

                Comment


                • #9
                  I have to agree, that the greying of the baali sucks.


                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Prince of the Night View Post
                    I have to agree, that the greying of the baali sucks.
                    In someway yes. But on the other hand it is also kind of odd that you automatically become evil because of the clan/bloodline you were sired into. And Baali are afaik in modern times not even really organised.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      I always preferred the Baali as grey. Otherwise they become cartoon evil.

                      I liked the multiple Baali lines in Cb:Baali. They were richer and allowed you to play Baali as PCs. The evil Baali trope only works for NPCs.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Aahz View Post
                        In someway yes. But on the other hand it is also kind of odd that you automatically become evil because of the clan/bloodline you were sired into. And Baali are afaik in modern times not even really organised.
                        I'm pretty sure you already need to be someone into some dark things to get on their radar imo. They don't embrace boy scouts and then twirl their mustaches with a hearty chuckle as they push old ladies into traffic.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by herkles View Post

                          I need to re-read devil's Due but what was that interpertation of the Baali like?
                          It goes against the idea that Baali are reduced to serving the infernal powers or obsessively keeping the children asleep. They are basically described as a somewhat cursed Bloodline - the original Baali are described as coming from a demonological cult, or something. And thus nobody accepts or likes them, including the demons. The Baali are said to have tried to leverage the fact that they are the foremost demonologists among Cainites (or anyone, perhaps - it is noted that Caine's blood does give some serious pull in regards to dark/demonic stuff). Some Baali - including most the elder Baali - are described as carving only power, which makes them sound like standard Cainites.
                          Overall, from reading this summary, one could definitely imagine that Baali can follow moralities other than Path of Evil Revelations.
                          The description is only one page long. (page 144) Though a later box mentions possibility of seeking Baali out for answers in regards to infernalism and demonology, or allying with them against an Earthbound Demon. (perhaps the most "black" character group in World of Darkness, if you take them straight as presented)
                          Last edited by Muad'Dib; 03-10-2018, 03:13 AM.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Aahz View Post
                            In someway yes. But on the other hand it is also kind of odd that you automatically become evil because of the clan/bloodline you were sired into. And Baali are afaik in modern times not even really organised.
                            Depends on what you mean by 'become' evil. I don't exactly see the Baali making a habit of siring boy scouts except if they need canon fodder just like I don't see the Tremere siring low-iq jocks unless it's a true necessity.

                            So most Baali are not exactly kind-hearted when they are sired. The exceptions quickly succumb to infernal pacts due to pressure from their teachers/sires/peers and start picking up their habits unless they are truly exceptional and can say 'no' and survive.


                            Originally posted by adambeyoncelowe View Post
                            I always preferred the Baali as grey. Otherwise they become cartoon evil.

                            I liked the multiple Baali lines in Cb:Baali. They were richer and allowed you to play Baali as PCs. The evil Baali trope only works for NPCs.
                            In my games there are true exceptions but the price they pay is rejecting their clan (and their clan rejecting them, often fatally and painfully) but they are just that exceptions. They are not enough of them to be regarded as even a minor faction of the clan.

                            Regarding 'cartoon-villainy' I wouldn't say Baali are cartoon villains in my games and shouldn't be in most cases. There is a world of difference between the un-repentingly evil demon pacteer and the vampire equivelent of a mustache-twirling menace who ties PC's to train tracks while petting his siamese cat.

                            That being said my fundemental reason for being against the Baali being grey is qute simply that I have enough grey in the WoD. When every single clan is 'grey' (to different degrees) then having one or two clans being 'pure' white/black is refreshing.

                            Edit:

                            Am leaving this thread as I realise I am getting near telling other people how to play their game which is bad behavior in any RPG so stopping before I start.
                            Last edited by TryingToBeSlim; 05-29-2016, 03:09 PM.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              If we're discussing alignment. I'm sure all vampires would be on the chaotic-evil section (even the camarilla).

                              If we're discussing the "evil by embrace", I guess once again all vampires would fit in the "inherently evil" category, even Saulot: and he IS evil, no matter how much vampire-Jesus-crap gets in the books.
                              I guess most vampires can act or pretend to be nice. Tzimisce and Baali just have a harder time, either because of their mortal Background or something in the blood.


                              Now, if we're talking about political correctness, That's where things get tricky:

                              In Dark Ages, it was possible for Baali to get along with others, because several factions weren't in bed with the ruling corps...In other words, they could join the Sinners (Road of Sins) which were probably more evil and deranged than the Baali anyway.

                              In Modern/Final Nights, things got difficult.

                              The Camarilla is definitely more evil than the Baali (the elders at least), but it needs to keep the system running and, while they weren't all against the Baali, having them join or run around (infernal or not) was too much of a risk to take or too big a concession to make (both politically and morally).

                              Sabbat are just as evil (or worse) and have an interesting story about infernalism. They did allow it, but it quickly turned out to profit the Demons, which forced them to eliminate at least 2000 members. I'd imagine that, after what happened, they would think twice about allowing Baali around.

                              Despite that, the sect still has its share of demonologists and luciferians (infernalist or not) who would probably love to trade stories with the Baali.

                              Furthermore, If we were to consider the LARP setting where:
                              - Assamite broke their ties with the Sword.
                              - Both Assamite and Toreador antitribu were demoted to "less than a Pander".
                              - Sword enforces a "masquerade" that hinders the Inquisition (and most everything else).
                              I'm sure it's possible to have the Baali join the club either in Revelations, Night or Cathari like they did with the Sinners in Dark Ages.

                              no...Baali are totally playable Hive or not.
                              Last edited by Pleiades; 05-29-2016, 04:30 PM.


                              -

                              Comment

                              Working...
                              X