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  • #46
    Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post

    Ooooo, them's fighting words.

    The Sabbat are just cheap Anarch knock offs.

    *puts monocle in eye*

    The Sabbat offer a completely different viee of the world, and multiple inhuman morality codes, the Anarchs offer angst and rebellion.. With fangs. I know which I prefer to tell a story of, yet Anarchs steal the page count and the Sabbat got handed a planetry scale idiot ball so they could stuffed in the fridge off screen and delayed for... We have no idea how long, to make way for the Anarchs to be handed unearned victory by the retreating Cams. Then the Lasombra changed sides because..... Reasons that make zero sense (and Obtenbreation the Cthonic power of Outer Night geta tied into Necromancy,.thus binning totally the Nephandic/Lovecroftian themes in favour of.. Oh its Oblivion...yay?) The Settites joon the Anarchs..because reasons, as do a whole pile of necromancers... For reasons... And the multi kilometres thick plot armour of the anarchs continues to grow, unearned, the fangy Mary Sues and Stus roll on victorious. The Kieu Jin were less bad than the Anarchs, at least some attempts at interesting and different were made with them, however fatally flawed.

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    • #47
      Originally posted by Taggie View Post

      The Sabbat offer a completely different viee of the world, and multiple inhuman morality codes, the Anarchs offer angst and rebellion.. With fangs. I know which I prefer to tell a story of, yet Anarchs steal the page count and the Sabbat got handed a planetry scale idiot ball so they could stuffed in the fridge off screen and delayed for... We have no idea how long, to make way for the Anarchs to be handed unearned victory by the retreating Cams. Then the Lasombra changed sides because..... Reasons that make zero sense (and Obtenbreation the Cthonic power of Outer Night geta tied into Necromancy,.thus binning totally the Nephandic/Lovecroftian themes in favour of.. Oh its Oblivion...yay?) The Settites joon the Anarchs..because reasons, as do a whole pile of necromancers... For reasons... And the multi kilometres thick plot armour of the anarchs continues to grow, unearned, the fangy Mary Sues and Stus roll on victorious. The Kieu Jin were less bad than the Anarchs, at least some attempts at interesting and different were made with them, however fatally flawed.
      The Lasombra switched sides because their Antediluvian was still alive so they clearly took a shot at the Devil and missed. Now the only thing to do is serve it and grovel, while throwing their fellows under the bus to save themselves.

      Because that's how the Lasombra roll.

      Honor, respect, loyalty? Please. Save it for the shovelheads.


      Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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      • #48
        Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post

        The Lasombra switched sides because their Antediluvian was still alive so they clearly took a shot at the Devil and missed. Now the only thing to do is serve it and grovel, while throwing their fellows under the bus to save themselves.

        Because that's how the Lasombra roll.

        Honor, respect, loyalty? Please. Save it for the shovelheads.
        stop quote mining, either respond properly to the post, or I will have to assume you agree on all other points.


        So the Lasombra joines the side that ram away feom Anarchs.. To make themselves easier to chow down on? The faction that gave up its power, influence and territory is better than the actual paramilitary force? (ok the Sabbat idiot ball moment still makes no sense at all, apart from having vampire isis to be edgy...)
        Last edited by Taggie; 01-24-2020, 12:34 AM.

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        • #49
          Originally posted by Taggie View Post

          stop quote mining, either respond properly to the post, or I will have to assume you agree on all other points.
          This isn't college and I'm not getting paid or graded on responding. This is my hobby. I'll respond to the others if I want but be like 20% less intense.

          Originally posted by Taggie View Post
          So the Lasombra joines the side that ram away feom Anarchs.. To make themselves easier to chow down on? The faction that gave up its power, influence and territory is better than the actual paramilitary force? (ok the Sabbat idiot ball moment still makes no sense at all, apart from having vampire isis to be edgy...)
          From what we see with Sierra Von Burris and Marcus Vitel, the Lasombra who are defecting are the rich and influential Lasombra. The Lasombra are abandoning the poor shovelheads, fanatics, and pathetic fools while taking the entirety of the Sabbat's wealth and power with them to join the single most powerful institution in the World of Darkness.

          And they're going to probably rule the Camarilla in a few decades because they have all the Sabbat's wealth and power while the Camarilla has lost their strongest allies in the Brujah and Tremere Pyramid.

          The Lasombra ARE the wealth and power of the Sabbat. They lose nothing while the Sabbat loses everything.
          Last edited by CTPhipps; 01-24-2020, 12:55 AM.


          Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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          • #50
            Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post

            This isn't college and I'm not getting paid or graded on responding. This is my hobby. I'll respond to the others if I want but be like 20% less intense.



            From what we see with Sierra Von Burris and Marcus Vitel, the Lasombra who are defecting are the rich and influential Lasombra. The Lasombra are abandoning the poor shovelheads, fanatics, and pathetic fools while taking the entirety of the Sabbat's wealth and power with them to join the single most powerful institution in the World of Darkness.

            And they're going to probably rule the Camarilla in a few decades because they have all the Sabbat's wealth and power while the Camarilla has lost their strongest allies in the Brujah and Tremere Pyramid.

            The Lasombra ARE the wealth and power of the Sabbat. They lose nothing while the Sabbat loses everything.
            I thought I was doing well at toning down how angry with this edition I am, you are getting the 20% less intense version already. (i don't think about this when not on the forums btw, just coming here reminds me )

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            • #51
              Fair enough.

              Originally posted by Taggie View Post
              The Sabbat offer a completely different viee of the world, and multiple inhuman morality codes, the Anarchs offer angst and rebellion.. With fangs. I know which I prefer to tell a story of, yet Anarchs steal the page count and the Sabbat got handed a planetry scale idiot ball so they could stuffed in the fridge off screen and delayed for... We have no idea how long, to make way for the Anarchs to be handed unearned victory by the retreating Cams
              The central conflict of Vampire: The Masquerade for me has always been the War of the Ages. Antediluvians vs. Methuselahs, Methuselahs vs. Elders, Elders vs. Ancilla, Neonates versus Ancilla and everyone in that group against each other. The Anarchs are the group that represent an immense lust for freedom and willingness to fight against the chains of slavery that are inherent to the system. You as a Neonate should almost always side with the Anarchs because the Camarilla is deliberately designed to go against anyone who isn't over 200 years old. Its is a geroncracy built on Fedualism and killing any competing predators.

              Thin Bloods, High Generation vampires, Caitiff, and any vampire who hates being controlled are naturally going to gravitate to them. If you don't want to be a blood bound slave, they're the only group to join since every Sabbat is a slave via the Vinculum and cannon fodder for the corrupt elders of that sect. As for being idiots, have you read the Clan Novels? The Sabbat were not a bunch of brilliant geniuses and inhuman monsters. It turned out they really are a bunch of arrogant barely controlled Beast-dominated psychopaths who have no concept of the Masquerade.

              The Anarchs organizing has always been something that was gonna happen in the age of social media and rising disaffected vampires.

              The Settites joon the Anarchs..because reasons, as do a whole pile of necromancers... For reasons... And the multi kilometres thick plot armour of the anarchs continues to grow, unearned, the fangy Mary Sues and Stus roll on victorious. The Kieu Jin were less bad than the Anarchs, at least some attempts at interesting and different were made with them, however fatally flawed.
              The Setites joined the Anarchs because probably someone stopped forgetting the Anarchs existed and MAYBE it would be a good idea to have organizations built on "fighting Elder vampires", "converting young vampires", and "worshiping a god of chaos and freedom" MIGHT have something to gain by associating with the largest group of chaos and freedom loving young vampires out there. Mind you, Lucita was obsessed with freedom and hated her sire as well as Elders yet no one ever thought of making her a Anarch.

              As for the Kuei-Jin, how racist they were can be summarized by the words, "They know things about torture that would make a Tzimisce sick."

              So much Yellow Peril in one line.


              Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

              Comment


              • #52
                Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post
                Fair enough.



                1) The central conflict of Vampire: The Masquerade for me has always been the War of the Ages. Antediluvians vs. Methuselahs, Methuselahs vs. Elders, Elders vs. Ancilla, Neonates versus Ancilla and everyone in that group against each other. The Anarchs are the group that represent an immense lust for freedom and willingness to fight against the chains of slavery that are inherent to the system. You as a Neonate should almost always side with the Anarchs because the Camarilla is deliberately designed to go against anyone who isn't over 200 years old. Its is a geroncracy built on Fedualism and killing any competing predators.

                2)Thin Bloods, High Generation vampires, Caitiff, and any vampire who hates being controlled are naturally going to gravitate to them. If you don't want to be a blood bound slave, they're the only group to join since every Sabbat is a slave via the Vinculum and cannon fodder for the corrupt elders of that sect. As for being idiots, have you read the Clan Novels? The Sabbat were not a bunch of brilliant geniuses and inhuman monsters. It turned out they really are a bunch of arrogant barely controlled Beast-dominated psychopaths who have no concept of the Masquerade.

                3)The Anarchs organizing has always been something that was gonna happen in the age of social media and rising disaffected vampires.



                4)The Setites joined the Anarchs because probably someone stopped forgetting the Anarchs existed and MAYBE it would be a good idea to have organizations built on "fighting Elder vampires", "converting young vampires", and "worshiping a god of chaos and freedom" MIGHT have something to gain by associating with the largest group of chaos and freedom loving young vampires out there. Mind you, Lucita was obsessed with freedom and hated her sire as well as Elders yet no one ever thought of making her a Anarch.

                5)As for the Kuei-Jin, how racist they were can be summarized by the words, "They know things about torture that would make a Tzimisce sick."

                So much Yellow Peril in one line.
                1) War of Ages is central, I agree, however the Anarchs as presented, a mix of Occupy Fangtown, and criminal gangs, should have been crushed the same way both of those are when law enforcement decides to drop the hammer. They don't do enough strategically sound, or tactically and politically smart things to earn the victories they are given. The Sabbat do more and get less, shovelhead waves, subversion, attacking resources, masquerade breaches to drain resources etc are smart, not brilliant, but smart, compared to the Anarchs at least.

                2) That depends on the author and the book, but yes of course they have some of that, sometimes a lot of that, it doesn't stop the Paths being the most interesting things in the setting for me. They also have a basic grasp of startegy and tactics, which puts them miles ahead of the Anarchs. Also Vinicullum as slavery? Given the Civil Wars etc, if it is it doesn't work very well.

                3) Probably, that doesn't mean it should or could win as big as it has.

                4) you missed out being fanatical worshippers of an Antedelluvion Blood God. Sending infiltratiors and missionaries is fine, actually a great plan, flat out declaration of allegiance however weakens them with the other factions for a marginal gain at best.

                5) yes, fatally flawed in execution, (mins you having someone worse than the Tzim, and them not being kindred was a solid idea, the way it was done sucked tho) but at least interesting, the Courts and ( what ever their Roads were called I can't remember) be fundamentally different from how and why kindred did things was good, as a concept, executed badly, but a good idea. If we want a real screw up: Africa... Just Africa, its a continent not a country for starters.

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                • #53
                  Originally posted by Taggie View Post
                  1) War of Ages is central, I agree, however the Anarchs as presented, a mix of Occupy Fangtown, and criminal gangs, should have been crushed the same way both of those are when law enforcement decides to drop the hammer. They don't do enough strategically sound, or tactically and politically smart things to earn the victories they are given. The Sabbat do more and get less, shovelhead waves, subversion, attacking resources, masquerade breaches to drain resources etc are smart, not brilliant, but smart, compared to the Anarchs at least.
                  I think part of the issue is assuming the Anarchs are a "new" thing when the way it's set up the Anarchs should have been there for the Revolutionary War, French Revolution [which they were retconned as being behind], the Russian Revolutions [The Brujah Council has since been retconned as an Anarch Movement], and so on. There's nothing that prevents the Anarchs from being organized and dangerous revolutionaries to contrast against the Camarilla's oppressive brutality.

                  Terrorists vs. Tyrants, take your pick.

                  Also, where did all the centuries of revolutionaries and firebrands of yesteryear go?

                  2) That depends on the author and the book, but yes of course they have some of that, sometimes a lot of that, it doesn't stop the Paths being the most interesting things in the setting for me. They also have a basic grasp of startegy and tactics, which puts them miles ahead of the Anarchs. Also Vinicullum as slavery? Given the Civil Wars etc, if it is it doesn't work very well.
                  I find Paths interesting but something that distracts from the central conflict of Humanity vs. The Beast. I think the Sabbat should have religions but actually just a lot of their members just regularly succumb to the Beast. Mind you, I suppose Paths exist so you CAN have vampires who are just straight up irredeemable soulless monsters like Dracula.

                  3) Probably, that doesn't mean it should or could win as big as it has.
                  It really depends on what they choose to do with it from here I suppose. Because I do think they're showing the organized Anarchs as becoming increasingly Sabbat-like, which is a loss for everyone.

                  4) you missed out being fanatical worshippers of an Antedelluvion Blood God. Sending infiltratiors and missionaries is fine, actually a great plan, flat out declaration of allegiance however weakens them with the other factions for a marginal gain at best.
                  Mind you, the new Setites are actually a breakway from the Church of Set. There's a bunch of non-Set worshiping chaos and freedom lovers like Eris, Loki, Lucifer, and so on. I do think like the Lasombra that letting the Ministry into the Anarchs is basically just giving them an opportunity to take over from behind the scenes. The Brujah should really be smarter than this because the Ministry is going to run all over them.

                  5) yes, fatally flawed in execution, (mins you having someone worse than the Tzim, and them not being kindred was a solid idea, the way it was done sucked tho) but at least interesting, the Courts and ( what ever their Roads were called I can't remember) be fundamentally different from how and why kindred did things was good, as a concept, executed badly, but a good idea. If we want a real screw up: Africa... Just Africa, its a continent not a country for starters.
                  Oddly Ebony Kingdoms is closer to how I'd want it but I just think we should have Chinese and Japanese versions of the existing Clans and their own group. The Ashirra is how it should be and I like how V5 has incorporated them.


                  Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post

                    1) I think part of the issue is assuming the Anarchs are a "new" thing when the way it's set up the Anarchs should have been there for the Revolutionary War, French Revolution [which they were retconned as being behind], the Russian Revolutions [The Brujah Council has since been retconned as an Anarch Movement], and so on. There's nothing that prevents the Anarchs from being organized and dangerous revolutionaries to contrast against the Camarilla's oppressive brutality.

                    Terrorists vs. Tyrants, take your pick.

                    2)Also, where did all the centuries of revolutionaries and firebrands of yesteryear go?



                    3)I find Paths interesting but something that distracts from the central conflict of Humanity vs. The Beast. I think the Sabbat should have religions but actually just a lot of their members just regularly succumb to the Beast. Mind you, I suppose Paths exist so you CAN have vampires who are just straight up irredeemable soulless monsters like Dracula.



                    4)It really depends on what they choose to do with it from here I suppose. Because I do think they're showing the organized Anarchs as becoming increasingly Sabbat-like, which is a loss for everyone.



                    5)Mind you, the new Setites are actually a breakway from the Church of Set. There's a bunch of non-Set worshiping chaos and freedom lovers like Eris, Loki, Lucifer, and so on. I do think like the Lasombra that letting the Ministry into the Anarchs is basically just giving them an opportunity to take over from behind the scenes. The Brujah should really be smarter than this because the Ministry is going to run all over them.



                    6)Oddly Ebony Kingdoms is closer to how I'd want it but I just think we should have Chinese and Japanese versions of the existing Clans and their own group. The Ashirra is how it should be and I like how V5 has incorporated them.
                    1)That would work, but as writtenn they aren't that, and as you raise later, more organised doesn't have to mean more like the Sabbat, a cell system, and field craft can work very well, without the cells becoming packs.

                    2) they did what those types usually do: followed the power, don't trust loud revolutionary leaders that gets you a Mao or Castro, who is only after power. So they won and got a new title: Prince. Or they died, or they failed and became irrelevant.

                    3)As far as I can tell they do lose a lot to the Beast, especially Shovelheads trying to move to a Path, and yea they are so you can do Dracula, Dusk til Dawn or Sub Species, which V5 lacks right now.

                    4)see 1

                    5) Depends who it is dealt with, it could be explained into making sense, especially as a large scale subversion move.

                    6) I like and want hungry dead that aren't linked back to Caine, that don't say 'foolish non-judeo christian, our god already colonised your legends.

                    Edit: On Humanity vs the Beast, I see it as Intellect vs Instinct, with every Path and Road being a tradeoff, the compromise you have made to square that circle, which is why I don't like Tenants, they are to variable and loose to be the rock your mind clings to against the storm of the Beasts hunger, and the degeneration of it does not show that accommodation slipping as the mind degrades into rage fueled madness, as you become comfortable with breaking part of the path, some of the tenants, the cease to bind you, but they also cease to hold the beast back, to further you fall, the more comfortable you become surrendering parts of your self to the beast, the close to mindless, endless frenzy you get.
                    Last edited by Taggie; 01-24-2020, 09:52 AM.

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