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  • Spirit Manipulation and Wraiths

    Does Spirit Manipulation give you any special ability to deal with Wraiths?

    If you are using Duality for example, could you shoot a wraith with your guy? Or Punch them? Could they hurt you?

    What about the other powers of Spirit Manipulation?

  • #2
    No, that is what Necromancy is for. Spirit Manipulation. From V20 - Rites of the Blood (p. 142):

    "Created to replace the rituals practiced by Clan Tremere in the days when it was a band of mortal wizards, Spirit Manipulation is the art of forcing spirits into actions and situations that would normally be contrary to their nature. These spirits are not the wraiths controlled by Necromancy, but a manifestation of the great powers of the universe that the limited humanoid brain perceives as spirits."

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    • #3
      Yes, Spirit Manipulation would be for the spirits of the Middle Umbra, the ones that can go find a Garou afterwards and complain about their mistreatment by the nasty vampires (or who may be capable of doing something about it after they are released).

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      • #4
        If the answer to both the question is yes
        1. Doesn't have a body in the material world?
        2. Was alive, but no more?
        then it's a wraith, and you should use Necromancy
        otherwise, is a spiritual entity more akin to the ones present in Werewolves TA, and you should use the Spirit Manipulation Thaumaturgy.

        While we are at it, I'd like to point out a couple things
        -. The Sielanic Thaumaturgy and some other blood magic traditions, actually have paths that walk "a middle ground" as they aren't necromancies but still interact with the spirits of the dead
        -. Apparently the Malfeans Neverborn (sort-of wraithish "demon-lord") were actually never born, this mean they were never alive, and this means they could be spirits sinked in the dark umbra and then linked to the Labyrinth. Thus, Spirit Manipulation could affect them, if someone would be enough crazy to try (ST fiat).


        ====================================
        "Worst English-language User" 2011, 2012, 2013, 2014, 2015 running for the 2017
        [Unofficial Clanbook] Nagaraja: the Masquerade


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        • #5
          Originally posted by Ryoga84 View Post
          If the answer to both the question is yes
          1. Doesn't have a body in the material world?
          2. Was alive, but no more?
          then it's a wraith, and you should use Necromancy
          otherwise, is a spiritual entity more akin to the ones present in Werewolves TA, and you should use the Spirit Manipulation Thaumaturgy.

          While we are at it, I'd like to point out a couple things
          -. The Sielanic Thaumaturgy and some other blood magic traditions, actually have paths that walk "a middle ground" as they aren't necromancies but still interact with the spirits of the dead
          -. Apparently the Malfeans Neverborn (sort-of wraithish "demon-lord") were actually never born, this mean they were never alive, and this means they could be spirits sinked in the dark umbra and then linked to the Labyrinth. Thus, Spirit Manipulation could affect them, if someone would be enough crazy to try (ST fiat).
          Messing with the Malfeans would not come off well. They're embodiments of cosmic pain, the cries of the universe as life and death were torn apart, and the God-Kings of Oblivion. I'd rather wake up an Antediluvian!

          Arguably, however, it's not whether the spirits died or not that determines whether it's Thaumaturgy or Necromancy you use. It's their location. Necromancy specifically reaches into the Dark Umbra; Spirit Manipulation reaches into the Middle Umbra.

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          • #6
            What about demons like Drakonskyr, Gulfora, or Kupala? Which of those beings would Spirit Manipulation properly interact with?

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            • #7
              None of the above? They are dealt with by vampires through negotiation, not through binding.

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              • #8
                Originally posted by adambeyoncelowe View Post

                Messing with the Malfeans would not come off well. They're embodiments of cosmic pain, the cries of the universe as life and death were torn apart, and the God-Kings of Oblivion. I'd rather wake up an Antediluvian!
                of course, I concur, it was an example

                Originally posted by adambeyoncelowe View Post
                Arguably, however, it's not whether the spirits died or not that determines whether it's Thaumaturgy or Necromancy you use. It's their location. Necromancy specifically reaches into the Dark Umbra; Spirit Manipulation reaches into the Middle Umbra.
                Here I dissent, I think the nature of the spirit determines if Necromancy or Spirit Manipulation is effective. If for example, there was a spiritual entity not wraith nor umbral, probably neither of the disciplines could affect them.
                I'd like to point, however, that the difference is that Necromancy rely with inherent connection between undead and true dead (and thus sometimes don't need blood pointe expenses), while Spirit Manipulation is especially designed to interact with a class of spirits (it's a really hermetic concept, if you ask my opinion). As proof we can examine the Sielanic thaumaturgical path of the Shadow World, which is designed to interact with another class of spirits (wraiths), but is indeed a Thaumaturgy.


                ====================================
                "Worst English-language User" 2011, 2012, 2013, 2014, 2015 running for the 2017
                [Unofficial Clanbook] Nagaraja: the Masquerade


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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Aya Tari View Post
                  None of the above? They are dealt with by vampires through negotiation, not through binding.
                  Based on power, definitely, but does their nature mean that hermetic sight and the spirit cant abilities would allow one to spot their presence or chit chat?

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                  • #10
                    I think that perception of such entities is best left to Auspex or, because of their power, the Occult Ability. Anyone can contact a demon, you just have to have the Occult Ability, the real question is will they acknowledge your existence. Demons are generally demand to be respected, so powerful demons require days long rituals and hundreds of innocents sacrificed in their name before they bother to return your call (figuratively speaking).

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Slick Willy View Post
                      What about demons like Drakonskyr, Gulfora, or Kupala? Which of those beings would Spirit Manipulation properly interact with?
                      So "demons" are a weird category in Vampire. Whether or not specific Disciplines work on them is best left up to the ST. Of those 3, I'm most familiar with Kupala, who in later books was retconned into being an Earthbound, which means Spirit Manipulation shouldn't work on it (imo).

                      As was stated above by others, take the general nature of the spirit and what Umbra it comes from to determine which power would be used on it (Necromancy or Spirit Manipulation; Sielanic Thaum blurs these lines considerably). Kupala isn't a Spirit as such, or a Wraith and so neither power seems fitting for interacting with it. If the other 2 demons are similar (I don't really know), they would fall into the same nebulous category.

                      It is entirely within the scope of Thaumaturgy in general to interact with demons (as shown by the Ritual Ward vs Demons), I just don't know if there is a specific path for it written up already for that purpose (there might be, there are at least 3 books of Thaum after all).

                      Agreeing with Aya Tari, Auspex (with a healthy Occult knowledge) is a good catch all for perceiving such entities.


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                      • #12
                        The rules for negotiating with them are found in the Book of Madness. In general, Methuselahs are very good at negotiations because they have very high dice pools.

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                        • #13
                          *A set of rules* for negotiating with *certain types of demons* are in that book. Those rules wouldn't (and shouldn't) be applied to all demons. That is also a Mage book (an older one too) and so it assumes human dice pools. I would shy away from assuming Elder vampires get some huge dice pool advantage just because the system was written for more human characters.


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                          • #14
                            Hmm, so boning up on Auspex, Occult, and maybe some homebrew Thaumaturgy rituals for interacting with demons are in order for a comprehensive demonological program. I'm 90% sure that the primary Storyteller in our chronicle is introducing Drakonskyr of Bloody Hearts and Lore of the Clans fame into our chronicle, so I've been thinking of what systems we can use to handle any player who seeks exorcisms, pacts, or other demon shenanigans.

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                            • #15
                              If allowed and it goes with your concept, True Faith can also do wonders.
                              You seem to have a good handle on what you want to do, and how to go about it. I would just make sure the character ideas are okay with the ST (and that Auspex and Occult will be good enough) and you'll be set.


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