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  • #31
    Originally posted by Ryoga84 View Post
    Here I dissent, I think the nature of the spirit determines if Necromancy or Spirit Manipulation is effective. If for example, there was a spiritual entity not wraith nor umbral, probably neither of the disciplines could affect them.
    Can you give an example of a spirit not related to the Umbra or Underworld? (And I guess we'd throw in Abyss as another area). Out of curiosity.

    As far as Kupala, I always liked the idea that he is just a super powerful spirit, personally. Earthbound canon aside.

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    • #32
      Originally posted by Monalfie View Post
      Can you give an example of a spirit not related to the Umbra or Underworld? (And I guess we'd throw in Abyss as another area). Out of curiosity.
      There are entities from the Dark Umbra that are most certainly not Wraiths or Spectres so Necromancy probably shouldn't work on them (Plastics? Angelics? I forget what they're called honestly).

      Emanations (from the Near Realms) also very well may not fall under Spirit Manipulation depending on interpretation. Granted, Vampires shouldn't really be encountering those anyways.
      Last edited by idpersona; 02-15-2017, 01:08 PM.


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      • #33
        Originally posted by idpersona View Post
        There are entities from the Dark Umbra that are most certainly not Wraiths or Spectres so Necromancy probably shouldn't work on them (Plastics? Angelics? I forget what they're called honestly).
        I think "Plasmics" (from ectoplasm) might be the term you're looking for.

        Originally posted by idpersona View Post
        Emanations (from the Near Realms) also very well may not fall under Spirit Manipulation depending on interpretation. Granted, Vampires shouldn't really be encountering those anyways.
        That can be complicated.... I'm not even sure Spirit Manipulation relates to ghost & spectres at all - 1st canon NPC with the path i can remember, the Malkavian shaman Killikilarven, if memory fails me not, actually used it to bind to the physical world an entity that was basically a D&D/fairy tal hag, for reference's sake.

        But then i'm speaking of a 1st edition VtM NPC, it's actually possible his version of the path literally worked under different rules...
        Last edited by Baaldam; 02-15-2017, 08:32 PM.

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        • #34
          Originally posted by Baaldam View Post
          I think "Plasmics" (from ectoplasm) might be the term you're looking for.
          Haha. Was posting from my phone. I'm guessing it decided I was trying to type "plastic". Oh well, I didn't catch it. Yea, that's what I meant.


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          • #35
            Originally posted by idpersona View Post
            Haha. Was posting from my phone. I'm guessing it decided I was trying to type "plastic". Oh well, I didn't catch it. Yea, that's what I meant.
            Auto-correct is hell. I did find it strange the specific choice, now it makes sense.

            Also, actually rechecked the Player of Pawns adventure - while the text on Spirit Thaumaturgy speaks of "spirits" in a sort of general way that seems to imply the umbral sort we will see in Apocalypse & Ascension, the Hag per is actually the ghost/spectre of some sort of witch it seems. So, kind of dubious through and through i guess.

            Or maybe vampire magic doesn't differentiates between ephemerals - or to phrase it in another way, umbral, plasmic/spectral, chimeric, mollusc, crustacean, echinoderm fishes, or whatever. No matter, caught and bound, it's all seafood.
            Last edited by Baaldam; 02-16-2017, 06:06 AM.

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            • #36
              Originally posted by Baaldam View Post
              Or maybe vampire magic doesn't differentiates between ephemerals - or to phrase it in another way, umbral, plasmic/spectral, chimeric, mollusc, crustacean, echinoderm fishes, or whatever. No matter, caught and bound, it's all seafood.
              Given the Vampire (the game) in general doesn't have much depth when it comes to Umbras, this wouldn't surprise me. If you are using the full depth of the various game's cosmologies though, I think 1 power shouldn't act as a catch all for every non material world-bound entity. Just my opinion though, obviously.


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              • #37
                Originally posted by idpersona View Post
                There are entities from the Dark Umbra that are most certainly not Wraiths or Spectres so Necromancy probably shouldn't work on them (Plastics? Angelics? I forget what they're called honestly).

                Emanations (from the Near Realms) also very well may not fall under Spirit Manipulation depending on interpretation. Granted, Vampires shouldn't really be encountering those anyways.
                Much appreciated. I was mainly curious. And I generally agree. The circumstances that any given Cainite, even one with Necromancy or Spirit Manipulation, will run into something else seems slim. But I generally agree if an ST wants to make the distinction that Necromancy = Just Ghosts/Spectres/Wraiths and Spiritu Manipulation = Mostly Typical Umbrood.

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                • #38
                  Originally posted by idpersona View Post
                  Given the Vampire (the game) in general doesn't have much depth when it comes to Umbras, this wouldn't surprise me. If you are using the full depth of the various game's cosmologies though, I think 1 power shouldn't act as a catch all for every non material world-bound entity. Just my opinion though, obviously.
                  I would have no problem with using it that way, exactly to drive home the catch all/generalist nature of the path. That said i would try to balance out that advantage with some complications in relation to more informed/specialized supernatural powers. In fact the 1st ed had a pretty hefty built-in catch to its use in that every failure (not botch) basically incurs into an angered spirit and potential brand new enemy for the thaumaturgist, a pretty messy colateral indeed.

                  Also, as example of a spirit not related to the Umbra or Underworld, i would point out the Ischin from 1e Storyteller's Handbook to the Sabbat (very curious, overpowered and forgotten bit of cosmology) and Narlthus from Rites of Passage, that while commonly accepted as "one of the 5 talons of the wyrm" is actually of quite dubious provenance as portrayed in the original adventure (the text itself makes a point that almost everybody relevant in the story is either conclusion-jumping or talking out of their @$$ when it comes to the Narlthus' identity or its motivations) and could be anything from a rogue antediluvian, one of the Baali's Children of Night or something else entirely, like Jenova from FF7 & its spin-off games.
                  Last edited by Baaldam; 02-16-2017, 12:47 PM.

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                  • #39
                    Originally posted by Monalfie View Post
                    Can you give an example of a spirit not related to the Umbra or Underworld? (And I guess we'd throw in Abyss as another area). Out of curiosity.

                    As far as Kupala, I always liked the idea that he is just a super powerful spirit, personally. Earthbound canon aside.
                    sorry for the late answer, I've been afwod (away from world of darkness) for some months, so I forgot to check here often

                    well, for one, Auspex 5 "Psychic Projection" let you become an astral projection, so, the character "soul" temporarily morph in some sort of spirit. You can travel in astral form (or even wonder in some astral realm) and be harmed by other spirits, but is not stated anywhere (as far as I know) that and astral projection can be harmed with Spirit Manipulation or Necromancy. Sure, Necromancy can take a soul out of a body, but in astral form you're no more a "soul in a body".

                    another example are the Demons, as far as I know (my Demon-do is quite lacking, by the way) a vampire can interact only with the physical entity that the Demon/Earthbound is inhabiting, there're no known powers for interacting with their "spirits" (yeah, maybe Thaumaturgy's Spirit Manipulation, Spirit Thaumaturgy or Necromancy's Bone Path or even some exorcism rituals can be tweaked in making the job). Actually the only Cainite power that should work for Demons is a level 5 "Protection against Demons" ritual from Dark Ages (probably in the Low Clans companion). While it's unclear if they are the same demons from D:fF (the Demon lore imply they could well be), they are a "class of beings" against whom the ritual was devised, different from the "ghost", "shapeshifters", "fairies", "vampires", "ghouls", etc, each with their own typical ritual "Protection against ..."



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                    • #40
                      Originally posted by Ryoga84 View Post
                      another example are the Demons, as far as I know (my Demon-do is quite lacking, by the way) a vampire can interact only with the physical entity that the Demon/Earthbound is inhabiting, there're no known powers for interacting with their "spirits" (yeah, maybe Thaumaturgy's Spirit Manipulation, Spirit Thaumaturgy or Necromancy's Bone Path or even some exorcism rituals can be tweaked in making the job). Actually the only Cainite power that should work for Demons is a level 5 "Protection against Demons" ritual from Dark Ages (probably in the Low Clans companion). While it's unclear if they are the same demons from D:fF (the Demon lore imply they could well be), they are a "class of beings" against whom the ritual was devised, different from the "ghost", "shapeshifters", "fairies", "vampires", "ghouls", etc, each with their own typical ritual "Protection against ..."
                      Demons are a massive pain in the ass to discuss because in oWoD it's about as precise a designation as "quadrupeds" or "creatures that have color red somewhere on their body". DtF demons don't originate in Umbra, don't live in Umbra, can't see Umbra and can't enter Umbra. They have absolutely nothing in common with Umbrood demons, fomori or any other class of being called "demon" in oWoD, other than their abiltity to temporarily exist in a disembodied form. But Mages and some Vampires can also do that and they are not demons. Demons in vampire are closer to Umbrood, but unlike Mage's Umbrood they actually buy souls. Then there are demons in Devil's Due which have some similarities with DtF demons and some similarities with generic brandless demons in other VtM books, but they are also not the same.

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                      • #41
                        While I'm not so critical, I too think there's a problem on "how" Demons are defined. But this doesn't mean said ritual can't be used.


                        ====================================
                        "Worst English-language User" 2011, 2012, 2013, 2014, 2015 running for the 2017
                        [Unofficial Clanbook] Nagaraja: the Masquerade


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