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  • Kinfolk Sorcerers

    I had a question concerning Kinfolk Sorcerers. Let us say that you have a male Human Garou Kinfolk with Pure Breed 5 who learned how to transform into a wolf using the Numina of Shapeshifting. Could they breed with female wolves and produce Wolf Kinfolk and Lupus Garou puppies? The same question could be applied in reverse with a male Wolf Kinfolk who learned how to transform into a human using the Numina of Shapeshifting, could they breed with female humans and produce Human Garou Kinfolk and Homid Garou children?

  • #2
    I'd say Yes to all of them, but I've always been in the "Well, it looks pretty wrong/OP/ridiculous, but as long as it makes a good story..." camp when it comes to mediating edge cases like this.

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    • #3
      Sounds squick to me but if you want magic dudes to fuck wolves and make more Kinfolk in your game, go for it.

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      • #4
        I would plainly say "yes". If this transformation is good enough to procreate, it is good enough to procreate with Garou. And since the Kinfolk status is a spiritual phenomenon, I see no reason for that to not work.

        Do it at your discretion, and play with possibilities and consequences as you please, there is a lot of room for things going pretty weird at that level.


        Eu prefiro ser essa metamorfose ambulante,
        Do que ter aquela velha opinião formada sobre tudo,
        Sobre o que é o amor, sobre que eu nem sei quem sou.
        É chato chegar a um objetivo num instante,
        Eu prefiro ser essa metamorfose ambulante.

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        • #5
          Originally posted by Aya Tari View Post
          I had a question concerning Kinfolk Sorcerers. Let us say that you have a male Human Garou Kinfolk with Pure Breed 5 who learned how to transform into a wolf using the Numina of Shapeshifting. Could they breed with female wolves and produce Wolf Kinfolk and Lupus Garou puppies?
          Possibly. Though, unlike Garou who are half wolf, you are literally just having a human have sex with canines. There is a very decent chance that the Pure Breed doesn't come through, given that it is entirely mystical and you are undergoing a magical transformation. This could go either way though, depending on ST preference.

          Originally posted by Aya Tari View Post
          The same question could be applied in reverse with a male Wolf Kinfolk who learned how to transform into a human using the Numina of Shapeshifting, could they breed with female humans and produce Human Garou Kinfolk and Homid Garou children?
          How are you wolves learning magic to shapeshift? They're wolves. So I would say no, this doesn't work.

          This entire line of thought reeks of bestiality. Again, at least with Garou they are half-human, half-wolf (and half spirit) so the crossbreeding doesn't strike me as being quite as odd.

          Originally posted by monteparnas View Post
          I would plainly say "yes". If this transformation is good enough to procreate, it is good enough to procreate with Garou. And since the Kinfolk status is a spiritual phenomenon, I see no reason for that to not work.
          The spiritual nature of it is why I would say it very well might not work. There is no way to account for that spiritual aspect to come through intact through the magical transformation. I'm not dead set against the idea, but it could certainly fail because of that.
          Last edited by idpersona; 12-26-2016, 11:36 PM.


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          • #6
            I am thinking that it may be an emergency way for Tribes that are about to lose the Wolf to anchor their lineage with a new group of wolves. While Kinfolk Sorcerers are rare, they are probably not as rare as Garou, so they could be used to procreate among animal populations to create new Wolf Kinfolk lineages while Garou are fighting the good fight. Of course, most of them might find the idea to be revolting, but there may be a few willing to 'think of Gaia' and get the job done.

            As for Wolf Kinfolk learning Numina, I am unaware of any rule that forbids Animal Kinfolk from learning Numina if they belong to Animal Kinfolk groups that have sufficient intelligence (Ajaba, Bastet, Corax, Garou [including Hakken], Gurahl, Kitsune, and Nuwisha [the write ups of the Ananasi, Mokole, Nagah, Rokea, and Ratkin seem to suggest that their Animal Kinfolk are not bright enough, but that would really be up to the ST]). While the Shapeshifting Path from Revised is externally focused (it allows you to transform other people into animals for goodness sake), the Shapeshifting Path from Hedge Wizard is internally focused and, from the descriptions of the Path in Hedge Wizard, could be one of the few Paths that should be adaptable to Animal Kinfolk. Of course, it is up to the individual STs whether they want Animal Kinfolk Sorcerers running around, but I think that it would definitely add a mythic quality to a game to have animals learning to transform into humans (though I would personally have them use the required Willpower roll to maintain their memories of being animal and to avoid being permanently locked into a human form).

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            • #7
              Originally posted by Aya Tari View Post

              As for Wolf Kinfolk learning Numina, I am unaware of any rule that forbids Animal Kinfolk from learning Numina if they belong to Animal Kinfolk groups that have sufficient intelligence (Ajaba, Bastet, Corax, Garou [including Hakken], Gurahl, Kitsune, and Nuwisha [the write ups of the Ananasi, Mokole, Nagah, Rokea, and Ratkin seem to suggest that their Animal Kinfolk are not bright enough, but that would really be up to the ST]). While the Shapeshifting Path from Revised is externally focused (it allows you to transform other people into animals for goodness sake), the Shapeshifting Path from Hedge Wizard is internally focused and, from the descriptions of the Path in Hedge Wizard, could be one of the few Paths that should be adaptable to Animal Kinfolk. Of course, it is up to the individual STs whether they want Animal Kinfolk Sorcerers running around, but I think that it would definitely add a mythic quality to a game to have animals learning to transform into humans (though I would personally have them use the required Willpower roll to maintain their memories of being animal and to avoid being permanently locked into a human form).
              It... it just smells like an excuse for animals to bang humans and vice-versa. A Lupus kin being a sorcerer in the first place is already pretty incredible (and actually interesting, handled sparingly), but then to use that magical talent to fuck human women while disguised just seems super-duper weird.

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              • #8
                Well, let us ignore the interspecies breeding (despite it being a core part of the Fera) and talk about Animal Kinfolk Sorcerers. Which Paths do you think they would be capable of learning? I think that they could definitely develop Psychic Numina, definitely could not develop Scientific Numina, and could develop some Paths of Mythic Numina. I think that Alchemy, Conjuration, and Enchantment (from either Hedge Wizard or Revised) would be impossible to learn unless they already could transform into humans.

                I would suggest changing the rules making every Animal Kinfolk except Rat Kinfolk and Spider Kinfolk sapient when they reach sexuality maturity (the books are pretty clear that those two types are intelligent but not sapient) and, when they reach sexuality maturity, give them equivalent lifespans of Human Kinfolk unless their animal species innately possesses a superior lifespan. Otherwise, your Wolf Kinfolk Sorcerers would have only an average of ten years of adventuring in them. Of course, they could have a Flaw that limits them to the normal lifespan of the mundane members of the species.

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Aya Tari View Post
                  As for Wolf Kinfolk learning Numina, I am unaware of any rule that forbids Animal Kinfolk from learning Numina if they belong to Animal Kinfolk groups that have sufficient intelligence (Ajaba, Bastet, Corax, Garou [including Hakken], Gurahl, Kitsune, and Nuwisha [the write ups of the Ananasi, Mokole, Nagah, Rokea, and Ratkin seem to suggest that their Animal Kinfolk are not bright enough, but that would really be up to the ST]).
                  Can you cite where the books say that these animal kinfolk are of human intelligence? You are the first person I have ever heard make that argument, so I'm curious where it comes from.

                  Edit: The only example I know of offhand is the "Caged Folk", unverified Ratkin kinfolk inspired by the Rats of NIMH (which is one of the Fera you say don't get intelligent kinfolk).
                  Last edited by idpersona; 12-27-2016, 10:01 AM.


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                  • #10
                    The fact that you can play Wolf Kinfolk without any restrictions beyond those experienced by Red Talon Kinfolk suggests that they are sapient (Unsung Heroes, p. 48). Heck, if you wanted to spend the freebie points, you could have a Wolf Kinfolk that was as good a scientist as Einstein (Intelligence 5 and Sciences 5), though you would need one of your Garou relatives to transcribe your research papers and to speak at conferences for you. Since the rules do not forbid Wolf Kinfolk Physicists, I do not particularly see why they would forbid Wolf Kinfolk Sorcerers.

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                    • #11
                      While I don't think animals can learn Numina, I do think they would be effected by it. A wolf turned human would be amusing.

                      However, the Path, as written, is for temporary changes. Even if the change occurs on the genetic level, when it reverts, there goes the pregnancy.

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                      • #12
                        The Hedge Wizard version of Shapeshifting is different from the Revised version of Shapeshifting because Hedge Wizard is a crossover book while Revised is a Mage book. I would use the crossover book for Kinfolk rather than the Mage book, as Animal Kinfolk Sorcerers would be more of a Werewolf thing than a Mage thing. In any case, it would not matter for male Kinfolk fertilizing females of the appropriate species, since the sperm is independent after it is released. Of course, no one is saying you have to allow Animal Kinfolk Sorcerers, I am just saying that they are not specifically forbidden by the existent rules.

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Aya Tari View Post
                          Of course, no one is saying you have to allow Animal Kinfolk Sorcerers, I am just saying that they are not specifically forbidden by the existent rules.
                          Actually their are rules which actually state the opposite. If you are familiar with the Skull Pigs from the guide to the Wyrm, then you are aware that they were once kinfolk to the Grondr and they can gain the intelligence and skills necessary to caste Sorcery. These Voodoo Pigs are pretty much what you are talking about just you want to make them wolves and justify their powers through another source.

                          Lets also not forget that Wolves can be Kami, and Kami are not restricted from learning Numina. So a wolf or human Kami could learn not only the Shape shift Sorcery but they could simply learn to shape shift the way Fera do. If they happen to also be kinfolk with pure breed they do not lose that and should in fact have it carry on as normal regardless of what form they are in when the procreate as long is it is relevant to the species they are kin to.

                          That said, I would expect that the elders are going to be against the act entirely. Going outside the norms and using Sorcery is going to gain notoriety from most of the tribes. Going against what you are is also deviant behavior as noted by the fact that Garou can lose renown for acting to much outside their own Auspice. Since Kinfolk are judged more harshly then full members of the tribe I would expect that this type of behavior judged equally if not more harshly.

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Aya Tari View Post
                            The fact that you can play Wolf Kinfolk without any restrictions beyond those experienced by Red Talon Kinfolk suggests that they are sapient (Unsung Heroes, p. 48). Heck, if you wanted to spend the freebie points, you could have a Wolf Kinfolk that was as good a scientist as Einstein (Intelligence 5 and Sciences 5), though you would need one of your Garou relatives to transcribe your research papers and to speak at conferences for you. Since the rules do not forbid Wolf Kinfolk Physicists, I do not particularly see why they would forbid Wolf Kinfolk Sorcerers.
                            So starting by saying that I'm not trying to be difficult here. I just want to make sure I understand your stance on this. In your games (and actually in your view of how the WoD in general functions), at least half, sometimes more of the populations (those that are kinfolk) of wolves (Garou), hyenas (Ajaba), big cats (Bastet), ravens (Corax), bears (Gurahl), foxes (maybe just Asian foxes)(Kitsune) and coyotes (Nuwisha) are fully sentient and capable of not only human intelligence, but human levels of genius intelligence?

                            And all of this, even though the books that discuss lupus characters (and animal form characters in general) make sure to explain that around the time of the First Change the character goes through a mental awakening where they come into their human intellect?

                            I think the idea of a unique animal kinfolk with higher intelligence is interesting enough. But you are presenting it like it's the norm. Mostly (as far as I can tell) based on 2 or 3 paragraphs of rules that don't specifically disallow it. Am I missing something? (I am sincerely trying to understand)


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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Derzhuzad View Post

                              Actually their are rules which actually state the opposite. If you are familiar with the Skull Pigs from the guide to the Wyrm, then you are aware that they were once kinfolk to the Grondr and they can gain the intelligence and skills necessary to caste Sorcery. These Voodoo Pigs are pretty much what you are talking about just you want to make them wolves and justify their powers through another source.
                              This seems illogical. 1. This isn't a general 'kinfolk of various species or breeds can learn magic' rule. 2. Skullpigs are not a good example of why untainted kinfolk wolves could learn sorcery. Their ability to become smart enough to intentionally do evil is specifically said to be a work of the Wyrm. The Skullpigs are more like a mockery breed like the Warwolves than anything else. Normal kinfolk animals don't behave that way or have the capacity to ever become that way.

                              Even a Kami or Gorgon is going to behave far differently than just a smart wolf with sorcery.

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