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Dancing with the spiral

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  • #46
    Originally posted by idpersona View Post
    I agree with the first paragraph. Nitpick on the second. That is very much not the definition of insanity. That is a quote from Einstein. And while he was brilliant man, his fields had nothing to do with either psychology or linguistics. The fact that that "definition" is so often quoted is actually kind of annoying. And admittedly, this is just a personal statement with no impact on the greater discussion at hand.
    Sorry that's fair. My apologies.

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    • #47
      Originally posted by Saur Ops Specialist View Post

      You can get out of Malfeas without being "let out", though.
      Sauce? BotW20 says otherwise. One of the masters of the realm like Doge Klypse needs to agree for you to leave, otherwise you get trapped and eventually turn into one of those ravening slave spirits.

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      • #48
        Originally posted by The Laughing Stranger View Post

        Sauce? BotW20 says otherwise. One of the masters of the realm like Doge Klypse needs to agree for you to leave, otherwise you get trapped and eventually turn into one of those ravening slave spirits.
        That really seems like a new addition then. It was never like that before.


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        • #49
          Originally posted by idpersona View Post

          That really seems like a new addition then. It was never like that before.
          Quite. Couldn't find it in the 2nd edition version, and I'd imagine that it would have clashed with suggested plot hooks involving the rescue of captives from the realm, among other possibilities.

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          • #50
            Originally posted by The Laughing Stranger View Post

            Sauce? BotW20 says otherwise. One of the masters of the realm like Doge Klypse needs to agree for you to leave, otherwise you get trapped and eventually turn into one of those ravening slave spirits.
            Is that all of Malfeas of just the Dutchy of Klypse? I didn't see it saying that about all of Malfeas in BotW at a glance.

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            • #51
              Originally posted by Monalfie View Post
              Is that all of Malfeas of just the Dutchy of Klypse? I didn't see it saying that about all of Malfeas in BotW at a glance.
              Goddamit, yeah. My bad. Re-read it last night and this proved to be the case. Many of the other Duchies have some way of the head honcho catching you in their domain but it is only the Doge who prevents you from leaving personally.

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              • #52
                Originally posted by Asssassin View Post
                So yet again my google fu has failed me, is there any recent books (revised or more) that explains what happens when you dance with the spiral in its entirety or is it a GM fiat type of deal?
                I believe dancing the Spiral is detailed in the first edition of the Book of the Wyrm, early pages of the first chapter. That's what I can remember from the top of my head.

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                • #53
                  Book of the Wyrm (all editions) as well as Chronicle of the Black Labyrinth should provide some insight into Dancing the Black Spiral and it's effects.





                  English is not my native language, so i apologize for errors in grammar or spelling.

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                  • #54
                    Thanks all I think I got it now.

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                    • #55
                      Originally posted by Saur Ops Specialist View Post

                      But probably not. It'd be way too easy to manufacture Nephandi, otherwise, since cultists could just go around throwing people into Cauls.
                      Originally posted by Aya Tari View Post
                      It would be worth it to cultists even if only 1% of the people survived because 100 innocents dying is a cheap price for 1 Nephandi. The success rate would have to be 0.01% or lower, as it would be too time consuming and difficult to toss 10,000 people in to just get 1 Nephandi.
                      I'd imagine that it's..unwise..to throw people into the Cauls without consideration, preparation and good (or bad) reason. Throwing people just for the sake of Awakening a schmuck could end badly for the throwers.
                      Though I can see a chosen Acolyte or consor being given a chance to walk into a Caul, once every few years or decades.
                      It's also possible that a Caul's (or a Black Spiral's) power is limited - even assuming suitable candidates for Inversion, the truth might be that no more than one Nephandi can be made per a period of time.
                      Last edited by Muad'Dib; 01-11-2017, 06:24 PM.

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                      • #56
                        Originally posted by Muad'Dib View Post

                        I'd imagine that it's..unwise..to throw people into the Cauls without consideration, preparation and good (or bad) reason. Throwing people just for the sake of Awakening a schmuck could end badly for the throwers.
                        Though I can see a chosen Acolyte or consor being given a chance to walk into a Caul, once every few years or decades.
                        It's also possible that a Caul's (or a Black Spiral's) power is limited - even assuming suitable candidates for Inversion, the truth might be that no more than one Nephandi can be made per a period of time.
                        I think it also kind of misses the actual logistics of it as well. You can only enter a Caul willingly. So you have to develop mortals who are willing to enter an Abyss hole. You then have to go through the chance they survive at all, since many Mages who enter just die due to being unworthy or they things there are hungry. And then you have to assume they Awaken the mortal. I haven't read the part about how likely it seems that sleepers can awaken in a Caul, but it does seem likely to be less than 1% to me.

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                        • #57
                          Originally posted by Monalfie View Post
                          I think it also kind of misses the actual logistics of it as well. You can only enter a Caul willingly.
                          While M20 say so, the Book of Madness 2nd edition says that if you are thrown into a Caul, you end up in a fleshy chamber faced by howling creature-demons. Taking a step towards the creatures means choosing the Reversed Path, and becoming Nephandi if one survives. (a "good portion" die) Taking a step backwards results in being killed by the creature-demons. If someone stands still they will not be harmed, at least until one of the Patrons or a Nephandus investigates the delay. The text mentions a possibility of exiting the Caul if outside help shows up and forces the Caul open.
                          Originally posted by Monalfie View Post
                          I haven't read the part about how likely it seems that sleepers can awaken in a Caul, but it does seem likely to be less than 1% to me.
                          I'd say it's much higher - possibly 10-60 % ; but this is assuming that only consors or exalted acolytes who have at least an inkling of what Descension is will be offered going into the Caul. There might also be some preparations that could increase one's chances.

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                          • #58
                            Originally posted by Muad'Dib View Post
                            While M20 say so, the Book of Madness 2nd edition says that if you are thrown into a Caul, you end up in a fleshy chamber faced by howling creature-demons. Taking a step towards the creatures means choosing the Reversed Path, and becoming Nephandi if one survives. (a "good portion" die) Taking a step backwards results in being killed by the creature-demons. If someone stands still they will not be harmed, at least until one of the Patrons or a Nephandus investigates the delay. The text mentions a possibility of exiting the Caul if outside help shows up and forces the Caul open.
                            Does revised even say that sleepers can Awaken in cauls? Honestly not aware if it does or not.

                            I'd say it's much higher - possibly 10-60 % ; but this is assuming that only consors or exalted acolytes who have at least an inkling of what Descension is will be offered going into the Caul. There might also be some preparations that could increase one's chances.
                            If we're talking about revised, there are several pages discussing how the Nephandi are very good at awakening Widderslaintes, talks about sites they used to cause torture them in attempts to awaken them, and how they often murder them brutally under the(unconfirmed) theory that more brutal deaths increase the likelihood of a faster widderslainte awakening next rebirth. If it was anywhere closer to 1%, you'd think it would mention they throw them into a caul.


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                            • #59
                              Originally posted by Monalfie View Post
                              Does revised even say that sleepers can Awaken in cauls? Honestly not aware if it does or not.
                              It's not stated outright as far as I can see; but the way it talks a lot about how Mage souls are more valuable suggests that only the already Awakened can become Nephandi. It also refers to a hypothetical 'mage' when describing a possible escape of an unwilling person from a Caul.

                              Originally posted by Monalfie View Post
                              If we're talking about revised, there are several pages discussing how the Nephandi are very good at awakening Widderslaintes, talks about sites they used to cause torture them in attempts to awaken them, and how they often murder them brutally under the(unconfirmed) theory that more brutal deaths increase the likelihood of a faster widderslainte awakening next rebirth. If it was anywhere closer to 1%, you'd think it would mention they throw them into a caul.
                              (I assume you wanted to write 10 %, not 1 %)

                              Hm fair point. Though maybe Widderslaintes can't go into a Caul? Their Avatars are already Inverted, even if Asleep. So maybe a Caul won't accept them. Though this disagrees with Nephandi using Cauls for Regenerations. Thus maybe Widderslaintes always die if they end up in a Caul as a Sleeper, for some reason.

                              A better reason for not tossing Widderslaintes into Cauls would be: even if a Caul could Awaken with 50 % chance, the problem is that if a Caul consumes somebody (whether a Mage or a Sleeper) they and their Avatar won't reincarnate. (I just made this up, but it makes sense.) So nobody wants to risk Sleeping Widderslaintes' Avatars; and thus the idea that it's better to do the torture thing to cumulatively increase a chance of getting an Awakened Widderslainte, even if it will take a few generations. The higher ranked Nephandi, who I imagine would be setting policy on dealing with latent Widderslaintes, have plenty of time to wait.


                              (Is a person and their Avatar the same being? Do they reincarnate together?)
                              Last edited by Muad'Dib; 01-12-2017, 06:21 PM.

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                              • #60
                                Originally posted by Muad'Dib View Post
                                It's not stated outright as far as I can see; but the way it talks a lot about how Mage souls are more valuable suggests that only the already Awakened can become Nephandi. It also refers to a hypothetical 'mage' when describing a possible escape of an unwilling person from a Caul.
                                I think it was an intentional change between editions, as far as I can tell. They are now saying, yes, you can possibly awaken from going in a Caul. But now nobody can be unwillingly thrown in. Otherwise just tossing a bunch of unwilling sleepers into a caul would be a tactic.

                                (I assume you wanted to write 10 %, not 1 %)

                                Hm fair point. Though maybe Widderslaintes can't go into a Caul? Their Avatars are already Inverted, even if Asleep. So maybe a Caul won't accept them. Though this disagrees with Nephandi using Cauls for Regenerations. Thus maybe Widderslaintes always die if they end up in a Caul as a Sleeper, for some reason.

                                A better reason for not tossing Widderslaintes into Cauls would be: even if a Caul could Awaken with 50 % chance, the problem is that if a Caul consumes somebody (whether a Mage or a Sleeper) they and their Avatar won't reincarnate. (I just made this up, but it makes sense.) So nobody wants to risk Sleeping Widderslaintes' Avatars; and thus the idea that it's better to do the torture thing to cumulatively increase a chance of getting an Awakened Widderslainte, even if it will take a few generations. The higher ranked Nephandi, who I imagine would be setting policy on dealing with latent Widderslaintes, have plenty of time to wait.


                                (Is a person and their Avatar the same being? Do they reincarnate together?)
                                Valid possibilities. I'm not positive on the metaphysics. I think an avatar separates and finds someone else? But it might be that they are linked and are reborn together. Though, personality changes for the person regardless.

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