Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Playing Lupus & Metis

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #31
    It really would not matter if Metis regenerate from birth because, while they are in their mother, they are yet to be born and so their regeneration capability would have yet to be triggered. I really doubt that Black Furies, Bone Gnawers, or Children of Gaia would be against abortion since it would be about the personal freedom of the woman involved (it would also mean that the mother would not be wasting time bearing a Metis that they could use to bear a proper Garou). Garou do not follow human religions for the most part, so they would not have religious reasons to oppose abortion (in fact, they would have a religious argument for aborting a Metis, as Metis are unnatural things whose existence violates the Litany and inhibits the ability of the Garou to protect Gaia because Metis are incapable of producing future Garou to protect Gaia).

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by Aya Tari View Post
      It really would not matter if Metis regenerate from birth because, while they are in their mother, they are yet to be born and so their regeneration capability would have yet to be triggered. I really doubt that Black Furies, Bone Gnawers, or Children of Gaia would be against abortion since it would be about the personal freedom of the woman involved (it would also mean that the mother would not be wasting time bearing a Metis that they could use to bear a proper Garou). Garou do not follow human religions for the most part, so they would not have religious reasons to oppose abortion (in fact, they would have a religious argument for aborting a Metis, as Metis are unnatural things whose existence violates the Litany and inhibits the ability of the Garou to protect Gaia because Metis are incapable of producing future Garou to protect Gaia).
      I'd actually say they regenerate from womb. Since the First Law is so important that its the -first- law, it has to have been a serious enough case to put it out there. And in older books, it was said metis were born alien chestburster style, so I'd say a pregnancy with a metis is in itself very unnatural.


      My gallery.

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by wonderandawe View Post
        I wonder how many CoG/Bonegnawer septs find Metis pups left on their doorstep. Is there rituals to figure out the parents of the child? Do you think CoG would perform the ritual and finger the parents?
        There's the Rite of Heritage, which can tell your parentage up to X successes per generation; e.g., two successes would reveal your parents & grandparents. As for if they'd track down the parents, I suppose it depends on the Coggies involved. I doubt most would unless they suspected foul play.

        Comment


        • #34
          Off-topic from the current discussion, but one thing that I've noticed a lot in games that ban lupus, is that homid are assumed to just -know- how wolf behaviour works. It is an instinct, apparently.

          Sadly, it is not. Like any social creature, wolves also teach a lot to their pups. This is one of the reasons why ambassador wolves are taken from their litter early, so they aren't taught how to fear humans. And ask anyone who has had an orphaned dog from the baby age without dog companions. Those dogs grow very socially blind to canine etiquette, and it actually causes them problems interacting with other dogs.

          A homid knows how humans work, but they won't automatically realize things like ear position or tail position meanings. Or how to hunt. They might even go by the cliche of alpha-wolf and act like a total asshole to wolves.

          Now, I must note that dominance and submissions in a way are instinctual. But in the sense that prisons form their own pecking order. It is not quite what most wolf packs in the wild are.


          My gallery.

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by Mongoose View Post
            There's the Rite of Heritage, which can tell your parentage up to X successes per generation; e.g., two successes would reveal your parents & grandparents. As for if they'd track down the parents, I suppose it depends on the Coggies involved. I doubt most would unless they suspected foul play.
            But that's a Fenrir Rite. So if the Fenrir are involved, they will absolutely hunt the parents down.

            But yeah, I've seen people play Coggies who are very pro-First-Tenet. "Yeah. The CoG fuckin' hate Metis because we have to deal with your byblows. You just punish the charach and leave us to do the actual work."

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by etherial View Post
              But yeah, I've seen people play Coggies who are very pro-First-Tenet. "Yeah. The CoG fuckin' hate Metis because we have to deal with your byblows. You just punish the charach and leave us to do the actual work."
              I do have this CoG Philodox Traditionalist concept floating around in my head. "You keep the Litany. You respect the traditions of the tribes. Because our ancestors knew that traditions are what holds the Garou Nation together. Do not start a war because you disagree with another tribe's traditions."


              Are you ready to rage? Discover if you are Brave Enough to fight for the soul of the world.

              The Werewolf: the Apocalypse Quest updates on Mondays. All are welcome to vote.

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by etherial View Post
                But that's a Fenrir Rite. So if the Fenrir are involved, they will absolutely hunt the parents down.

                But yeah, I've seen people play Coggies who are very pro-First-Tenet. "Yeah. The CoG fuckin' hate Metis because we have to deal with your byblows. You just punish the charach and leave us to do the actual work."
                In W20, it's a standard rite for all tribes, or at least it makes no mention of it being exclusive to the Fenrir.

                And I'm a fan of that interpretation. Could be fun to to throw players up against a conservative CoG, especially if they think they're all a bunch of softies or assume they'll allow their litany violation to slide.

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by Ana Mizuki View Post
                  Off-topic from the current discussion, but one thing that I've noticed a lot in games that ban lupus, is that homid are assumed to just -know- how wolf behaviour works. It is an instinct, apparently.
                  To be fair, there's plenty of that in the books. All Garou are noted as instinctively understanding their wolf side better than their human side or even spiritual side. So it's not just weird things from various ways people play the game.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by Heavy Arms View Post

                    To be fair, there's plenty of that in the books. All Garou are noted as instinctively understanding their wolf side better than their human side or even spiritual side. So it's not just weird things from various ways people play the game.

                    I haven't seen seen much of what you're describing, that all garou understand their wolf side better than either their human side or spiritual side. The W20 core book doesn't give that impression to me for sure. Using Primal Urge as an example again, there's a reason that ability is listed as "Possessed by: Lupus, Wild Animals, Predators," rather than homid or even metis. Homids don't have any restrictions on Abilities, but it says that they are generally less intuitive and perceptive than lupus or metis, and have a weaker connection to the wolf and spirit portions of their nature. Description of the lupus breed flat out says that they have "an understanding of the natural world that homids can't hope to understand." The difference is also shown mechanically given the impact that breed gifts have on each breed and what they are good at. Obviously this can change over time - a homid can catch up like a lupus can catch up to things that human born have experience with - but the starting line is very different, and it's probably very difficult to totally make up the difference.

                    I'd also say that the issue isn't instinct as much as experience. A homid may suddenly gain the new senses and instincts, but that doesn't mean they know what to make of it. The Players Guide to Garou notes this when describing homids, that the newly changed garou suddenly experiences sharper instincts, hunches, senses, reaction speed... but that these are often a source of confusion and frustration for them at first. This is different from lupus, who have grown up with much of that already. Lupus are also already familiar with the socialization of the pack rather than a larger society, where as homid have an easier time with the former than the latter.

                    I'm sure it probably varies by edition and book as well. The second edition core book (only using it as an example because it is right next to me) hardly talks about this even less than W20, maybe 2-3 sentences in the breed descriptions and that's it. I'm know I tend to take certain things for granted just because they make sense to me. Roleplaying the various learning curves for garou characters seems much more interesting to me than hand-waving them away, and is part of what gives the werewolf "condition" immediate consequences beyond their spiritual purpose.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      One of the big points is that all Garou speak "wolf" instinctively after the First Change, but none of them naturally speak human languages or even the Garou Tongue (p. 58 W20).

                      So the second a Homid or Metis has their first change, they immediately are fluent enough in "wolf" to communicate effectively with normal wolves (with all the non-vocalized communication that includes). However being able to deal with human stuff is always considered a learned activity, as are Garou cultural matters, and many non-automatic powers (like rolling to shapeshift) is also something that needs training (in Primal Urge or Gnosis) to be good at. That's a pretty big message that there is a much smaller learning curve for learning to be a wolf; which I don't particularly like, but that's in the books.

                      The point here is simply that regardless of how any of us feel about how it should be, that people doing things in a way I think most of the people in this thread disagree with are actually pulling their ideas from the books; not some weird phenomenon that plagues certain avenues of playing the game.

                      If there's any correlation there, the kinds of games that we're talking about tend to be more heavy handed about running things by-the-book because they frequently have much larger groups of players and more than one person handling the ST role, which means compromising to whatever the book says is much easier than implementing a bunch of house rules even if everyone would probably like the house ruled version better.

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by Heavy Arms View Post

                        To be fair, there's plenty of that in the books. All Garou are noted as instinctively understanding their wolf side better than their human side or even spiritual side. So it's not just weird things from various ways people play the game.
                        That IS true, very much so. But it is rather hilarious how homid are given much more leeway, while lupus are basically relegated to nothing more than feral children or utterly ignorant of anything human/the veil. That is my issue.


                        My gallery.

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Well, I think that is an ST problem. Unless you are playing a First Change game, your character should have been one of Garou for a few years before reaching Rank 1. They have been taught everything necessary to be a functional Garou, including the basics of local human culture and language if they are Lupus/Metis, and will be able to exist within Garou, Human, and Wolf society without major issues.

                          The biggest problem that Lupus should really have is with sex as, from the limited research into the differences between human and canine sex, the pleasure experienced by humans is potentially tenfold that of canines. Even more amazing to Lupus, humans can potentially have sex all the time while canines are more restricted. There should probably be quite a few Lupus sex addicts, though I really do not think that the Garou would care as long as they do not have sex with other Garou and do not let it interfere with their duties. The worst case scenario is they produce more Kinfolk.

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by Aya Tari View Post
                            There should probably be quite a few Lupus sex addicts, though I really do not think that the Garou would care as long as they do not have sex with other Garou and do not let it interfere with their duties. The worst case scenario is they produce more Kinfolk.
                            This is the world of darkness. That's far from the worst-case scenario.

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              I always imagined homid was the shape of touch and color. Lupus was the shape of scent, sound, and night vision. Metis is somewhere in between.


                              Are you ready to rage? Discover if you are Brave Enough to fight for the soul of the world.

                              The Werewolf: the Apocalypse Quest updates on Mondays. All are welcome to vote.

                              Comment

                              Working...
                              X