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  • 5 Primordials

    In the sourcebook Infernalism: the Path of Screams (for Mage: the Sorcerer's Crusade), there is a section on "primodrial manifestations" of evil which are basically the Werewolf Urge Wyrms, Elemental Wyrms, BSD totems, and others. However, it includes five beings which I can't link up to anything in Werewolf lore. Does anyone know anything about them or if they are mentioned elsewhere (perhaps under other names)? The five are:

    Abber'Dun; the Eater of Stars - Cannot manifest on Earth, but can be seen as a titanic abyss in the heavens.

    Amarth-Hybeel, Screamer at the Gates of Dawn - Patron of insanity, and constantly changes form.

    Edlahala, Drinker of Winds - a malevolent mass of storm clouds.

    Hyree'ithtaa, the Unspeakable Queen - Patron of atrocities. Manifests as a cloud blotting out the sun. Often sends swarms of giant, misshapen insects to devour sacrifices.

    Tes-la-Beel, Mother of Krakens - A titanic seagoddess of primal extinction.

    Because everything else in that section clearly maps to well known Wyrm spirits, I believe these must as well. Nevertheless, I can't find them. Interested to know if anyone knows anything more about them.

  • #2
    The Mother of Krakens might have something to do with Qyrl. That's the only thing that seems like it might even be remotely related.

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    • #3
      Interesting. I am looking to populate my own game with some terrible 'elder evils' that the Uktena have secreted away, and more than a few of these are inspiring.

      There is not a lot to go on for Drinker of Winds, but it could have parallels to the Storm-Eater.

      I like the idea of the Unspeakable Queen being the manifested Incarna of the Atrocity Realm; she could serve as a vile counterpart to Erebus' Charyss. Maybe she even teaches lessons to Garou, in her own way, but not without harming and/or violating them in lasting ways.

      Abber'Dun could be an echo of a bygone threat- the black shadow of the thing that Rorg sacrificed himself to destroy. It is still potent and violently evil, but Rorg's sacrifice ensures it will not touch earth directly. This promise has held for eons, and hopefully it won't change any time soon...



      Nothing springs to mind regarding the insanity one, but Saur's idea about Momma Kraken sounds interesting. I like the idea of an Incarna of Extinction, something that might have served Gaia in the past, back in the time before when all the Triat was in harmony. Since the thing slumbers for geological ages at a time, her own fall was not as precipitous as her master the Wyrm's, but through the years the Wyrm's seductive whispers have curdled its dreams and made her yearn for devastation on an unparalleled scale.
      Last edited by The Laughing Stranger; 01-16-2017, 01:19 AM.

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      • #4
        There are Celestines in the Deep Umbra that represent things forgotten or things unknown that are beyond the understanding of the Garou.

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        • #5
          Originally posted by The Laughing Stranger View Post
          Interesting. I am looking to populate my own game with some terrible 'elder evils' that the Uktena have secreted away, and more than a few of these are inspiring.
          That was my route as well. I was looking for references I could use to be equivalent to the Great Old Ones (which I refer to Talons of the Wyrm in my chronicles to give it a proper WoD feeling although there are far more than five) and found these. I thought they'd be good sources for cults and new fomori. They seemed perfect, but wanted to know if there were any other references to them.

          There is not a lot to go on for Drinker of Winds, but it could have parallels to the Storm-Eater.
          That was what sprung to my mind as well.

          I like the idea of the Unspeakable Queen being the manifested Incarna of the Atrocity Realm; she could serve as a vile counterpart to Erebus' Charyss. Maybe she even teaches lessons to Garou, in her own way, but not without harming and/or violating them in lasting ways.

          Abber'Dun could be an echo of a bygone threat- the black shadow of the thing that Rorg sacrificed himself to destroy. It is still potent and violently evil, but Rorg's sacrifice ensures it will not touch earth directly. This promise has held for eons, and hopefully it won't change any time soon...
          Interesting, I like the angle of the Rorg who is the incarna of the asteroid belt.

          Nothing springs to mind regarding the insanity one, but Saur's idea about Momma Kraken sounds interesting. I like the idea of an Incarna of Extinction, something that might have served Gaia in the past, back in the time before when all the Triat was in harmony. Since the thing slumbers for geological ages at a time, her own fall was not as precipitous as her master the Wyrm's, but through the years the Wyrm's seductive whispers have curdled its dreams and made her yearn for devastation on an unparalleled scale.
          It is hard not to go with some kind of Cthulhu angle and tie her into the Chulorviah as well.

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          • #6
            Well, one thing that you should know is that the asteroids, planets and moons that exist now are not the only ones that existed. There were tens of thousands of planetoids that existed during the formations of the Sol System, called oligarchs, that joined together to become the primordial asteroids, primordial moons, or primordial planets or were ejected into a hypothetical structure called the oligarch halo. Some of their Celestines could have been corrupted by the Wyrm after countless eons of orbiting Sol beyond the warmth of Sol's light.

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            • #7
              I actually think you are talking about the Talons of the Wyrm. Narlthus, the Thumb; Koshchei, the first finger; Thrassus, the smallest fiinger; and there were two others that were never officially named. The legend goes that when the Wyrm first lashed out at Gaia he manifested his hand. Her defenders ripped it to shreds and forced the Wyrm back but the fingers changed their shape and escaped. All but one is sealed away in objects. Baba Yaga set the Koshchei free.

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              • #8
                Originally posted by Derzhuzad View Post
                I actually think you are talking about the Talons of the Wyrm. Narlthus, the Thumb; Koshchei, the first finger; Thrassus, the smallest fiinger; and there were two others that were never officially named. The legend goes that when the Wyrm first lashed out at Gaia he manifested his hand. Her defenders ripped it to shreds and forced the Wyrm back but the fingers changed their shape and escaped. All but one is sealed away in objects. Baba Yaga set the Koshchei free.
                No, I think the Primordial Manifestations are different, and in any case (correct me if I am wrong Black Fox) OP just wants to use things like the Talons of the Wyrm without actually using Thrassus or Koschei. I like the idea of the Talons of the Wyrm, but the actual presentation of the Talons seems underwhelming. I mean, Narlthus is called 'The Thumb' for heaven's sakes. That is about the silliest title imaginable.

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Derzhuzad View Post
                  I actually think you are talking about the Talons of the Wyrm.
                  It's entirely possible that these five entities are the canonical Talons of the Wyrm because they both number five, but other than their numbers I don't see any connection between them. None of them seems like it is Narlthus or Koschei or any of the other candidates. I think they are entirely separate things.

                  Originally posted by The Laughing Stranger View Post
                  No, I think the Primordial Manifestations are different, and in any case (correct me if I am wrong Black Fox) OP just wants to use things like the Talons of the Wyrm without actually using Thrassus or Koschei.
                  The few descriptions we have of the canonical Talons of the Wyrm don't seem to match what is included in the sourcebook I mentioned. So I don't think they are the same thing.

                  And you are correct in my intent. I want to use the concept of "Talons of the Wyrms", but not limit to the canonical five. As I have said on other posts, I have a very Lovecraftian interpretation of the Werewolf setting. While I don't include Cthulhu, Nyarlathotep, Tsathoggua, etc. in my Werewolf games, I want things like them in the game. Instead of calling them Great Old Ones, I'll just use the terminology already invented about great ancient evils.

                  Originally posted by The Laughing Stranger View Post
                  like the idea of the Talons of the Wyrm, but the actual presentation of the Talons seems underwhelming. I mean, Narlthus is called 'The Thumb' for heaven's sakes. That is about the silliest title imaginable.
                  I definitely agree with you here. Limiting them to the number of five I think is restrictive to no good purpose. Thinking on a global scale, I think several dozen or so would serve the Garou and Fera with a variety of interesting cults, fomori servitors, and Big Bad Guys that can be used in individual chronicles. And while I understand the image of a clawed talon is poetic, I agree it sounds stupid when someone says, "We have to fight the pinky finger of the Wyrm! Let's go, the fate of the world is at stake!" So I keep the image and ignore that there is five of them (and why would the Wyrm be limited to only five fingers anyway?).

                  For things that are supposedly awful, what little descriptions we have of the Talons tend to be underwhelming. Nothing like the horror we get from encounters with the Great Old Ones which is what I like to invoke. I tend to be underwhelmed by most of the canonical antagonists of the Garou - they may be obviously evil, but not particularly horrifying. I want my Garou to be the immune system of Gaia destroying these alien presences on the world (and indirectly supported by Mages fighting Nephandi). The Liber Labyrinthus is basically my chronicle's version of the Necronomicon, but I also name drop various other texts mentioned (usually in the Mage sourcebooks).

                  I like the name of Narlthus and Thrassus so I'll keep them as Talons and throw the above five in as well along with Khaloobh the Drak Fungus and Mahstrac the Green Dragon and any number of my own inventions or filed off serial # versions of the GOOs. I'll even include Kupala for good measure along with any number of odd things found in other books and settings.

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                  • #10
                    Actually, I do believe that no one knows if there are just 5 and that is stated in the previous written material. Also, their names are only what common Garou Lore calls them. They have had centuries to adapt their persona's and would most likely have adopted names of their own by now. I was simply stating that it might be a place that links with Garou lore since there are 5 of each, nothing more than that.

                    Lets be honest though, in the America's the Three Brothers bound countless powerful banes to the Earth that don't have names or descriptions other then "If they ever got out it would be bad". I personally pull a lot of descriptions and character ideas from the 72 demons listed in the Lesser Key of Solomn.

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                    • #11
                      I personally think that the Great Old Ones are powerful independent Celestines, refugees from beyond the Solar System, who sleep in the Deep Umbra until they have a chance to once again rule the Earth. Powerful beyond reconning, even Nephandi Archmages and Antidiluvian Kindred are wary of them, much as a sardine is wary of a humpback whale. Mortal cultists enter the dreams of these sleeping Celestines and bargain for power, much like they do with Demon Lords, though consumption rather than damnation is the end result, as the sleeping Celestines dream hungry dreams.

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                      • #12
                        I do have some of the very big Wyrm menaces in my chronicles be alien Celestines beyond our solar system, but that works for those big menaces which aren't located on Earth but can be contacted by cultists. In the older versions of the Call of Cthulhu RPG, they were usually classified as "Outer Gods" (a term not used by Lovecraft). The "Great Old Ones" were beings vastly more powerful than humanity, but clearly less powerful than the Outer Gods and usually "trapped" on Earth somehow and only seldom manifested. That level of being wouldn't be at the power level of a Celestine, and perhaps not even at the Incarna level, but comparable in many ways.

                        If I were to apply a similar power scale, Tes-la-Beel the Mother of Krakens would likely be at the lower end, but Abber'Dun the Eater of Stars could be a "Wyrm Celestine".

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Black Fox View Post
                          I do have some of the very big Wyrm menaces in my chronicles be alien Celestines beyond our solar system, but that works for those big menaces which aren't located on Earth but can be contacted by cultists. In the older versions of the Call of Cthulhu RPG, they were usually classified as "Outer Gods" (a term not used by Lovecraft). The "Great Old Ones" were beings vastly more powerful than humanity, but clearly less powerful than the Outer Gods and usually "trapped" on Earth somehow and only seldom manifested. That level of being wouldn't be at the power level of a Celestine, and perhaps not even at the Incarna level, but comparable in many ways.

                          If I were to apply a similar power scale, Tes-la-Beel the Mother of Krakens would likely be at the lower end, but Abber'Dun the Eater of Stars could be a "Wyrm Celestine".
                          Isn't the Wyrm itself a Celestine? So are there more Wyrm-equivalent beings littering the universe, or are they on the same order, just a little inferior?
                          My understanding is that the 'Outer Gods' are things like Azathoth, right? The Blind Idiot God isn't really something anyone featured in a typical WoD game could hope to oppose.

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by The Laughing Stranger View Post
                            Isn't the Wyrm itself a Celestine? So are there more Wyrm-equivalent beings littering the universe, or are they on the same order, just a little inferior?
                            My understanding is that the 'Outer Gods' are things like Azathoth, right? The Blind Idiot God isn't really something anyone featured in a typical WoD game could hope to oppose.
                            The Wyrm is a Supernal.
                            So the hierarchy goes something like this:
                            ____
                            Supernals
                            ____
                            Celestines
                            Incarna
                            Jaggling
                            Gaffling

                            Gaia fits in one of those blank lines, either above or below the Supernals depending on who you're asking.


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                            • #15
                              The Wyrm is a part of the Triat, and the Triat is above the Celestines. If I'm wrong, someone please correct me!

                              You are right that Azathoth was classed as an Outer God and that you can't really defeat that. However, you could defeat a cult dedicated to it. Azathoth really isn't a good "antagonist" for various reasons. But Yog-Sothoth, Shub-Niggurath, Nyarlathotep, and Ghroth are also examples of "Outer Gods", and their cults make very good antagonists.

                              In my chronicles, I have Glo'ough, the BSD totem and "perverse fertility deity", basically be a stand-in for Shub-Niggurath. Although on this world, Glo'ough is only at the power level of an Incarna, in fact she is the equivalent of Gaia far in the deep umbra, the world spirit of planet with a completely alien biosphere. Her equivalent of Dark Young and other creatures are basically a form on "invasive species" trying to turn our nice Gaian world into an entirely different biosphere that would kill off most of Earth's indigenous life. So while Glo'ough is truthfully a "fertility spirit", it's one completely at odds with Gaia and thus "tainted".

                              (In the canonical description, she's supposed to be associated with Nexus Crawlers. So I either reinterpret what Nexus Crawlers do with their warp reality to bring it into line, or in their stranger aspects I shunt them off into some equivalent of Yog-Sothoth or when the Garou monkey about the Umbra too much and tear reality asunder.)

                              I've been able to reuse a lot of adventures or at least concepts from the CoC sourcebooks about Shub-Niggurath to good use!

                              I don't port over these creatures directly to the game as I want them to "fit" into the World of Darkness. So while I would never use Azathoth, I might use others and change them around a bit. Usually though I do not use Wyrm Celestines (Outer God types), but the lesser Great Old Ones. I have some Yog-Sothoth equivalent for sorcerers to use, but otherwise I intrepret Anthelios to be a Ghroth type being and that is about it.

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