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The Black Spiral and other Fera

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  • The Black Spiral and other Fera

    I'll make a long story short, as not to bother people with too many details:

    An acquiantance of mine does insist on playing a Fera who is also a Black Spiral Dancer. This ruffles my feathers well enough as it is - Black Spiral Dancers are pure NPCs as far as I'm concerned - but I am unsure as to how Fera other than the Garou can even dance the Black Spiral and survive. Especially since the second one requires the dancer to frenzy in order to complete it, so the Kitsune, for instance, would be unable to even finish it.

    I have gone through the W20 Book of the Wyrm and essentially found nothing explicitly for or against other Fera completing one or several circles, but I'm still sceptical at best - is there any hard, solid proof refuting or confirming my scepticism?

  • #2
    Fera don't become BSDs, they become other examples of tainted Fera, like Mnetics or Bitter Grins, hence the section for that in the W20 Book of the Wyrm..

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    • #3
      BSD are Garou. Their tribal gifts are balanced against the other Garou Gifts.

      You could be a tainted Fera that runs with a pack of BSDs I guess. You may even be able to dance the Spiral, though I am unsure which Fera would survive the encounter. But if you survived, you wouldn't be a BSD. You'll be something else. I don't know much about Fera, but I assume they have their own tribal structures with their own gifts.

      What Fera was your player thinking about playing? Is this a mixed game?


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      • #4
        Apologies, I seem to have worded the question badly: It is not about whether other Fera can become BSDs (which is a Tribe, so naturally only Garou can join it), but whether they can Dance the Black Spiral altogether, regardless of further alliances. So its more like "Can they learn the appropriate Rite"?

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        • #5
          Probably, though their methods of corruption are different. They will probably go insane though, even if they are not corrupted.

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          • #6
            Originally posted by Aya Tari View Post
            Probably, though their methods of corruption are different. They will probably go insane though, even if they are not corrupted.
            So a Corax could walk the Spiral and not be corrupted purely by dint of it being a bird rather than a wolf? What?

            Buzzards, Mnetics or Bale Sharks have different explanations about how they arise in their writeups, but that is not the only way that particular changing breed can be corrupted. If a Fera, any of them, treads the Black Spiral, they will belong to the Wyrm. You can't just dive headlong into the proverbial abyss without it changing you fundamentally for the worse. The will of the hardiest individual is nothing before the corrupt might of entropy made manifest.


            Edit: as a side note, OP, it sounds like you are only grudgingly allowing this player to be a Fera at all. It is your game- and some of the changing breeds are pretty powerful or highlight themes that may not be central to your story (I know I would struggle to incorporate, say, a Rokea, or a Nagah, in my own game).

            I would not reject the idea out of hand, but it sounds like your are being somehow forced into allowing this player to be whatever he wants... which might be the real issue here.
            Last edited by The Laughing Stranger; 01-24-2017, 01:31 PM.

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            • #7
              Originally posted by The Laughing Stranger View Post

              So a Corax could walk the Spiral and not be corrupted purely by dint of it being a bird rather than a wolf? What?
              You know better than that. The Corax have a different genesis (spirit egg vs. just being born) and a different charter purpose from Gaia. The Spiral Labyrinth could conceivably just snatch werewolves up due to their inborn purpose and leave others... well, not unaffected, but not wholly consumed, if consumed at all. It's paid forward by Corax having to reproduce by a taxing ritual that can be disrupted and turned back on itself to produce Buzzards. If a being gathered in tribes in the manner of Garou, it might be a different story, but they typically have more significant divisions than cultural ones, what with Bastet tribes being what kind of cat a character is and Mokole Streams being less distinct than tribes due to how Mnesis is more shared the further one goes back into it.

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              • #8
                Originally posted by Saur Ops Specialist View Post

                You know better than that. The Corax have a different genesis (spirit egg vs. just being born) and a different charter purpose from Gaia. The Spiral Labyrinth could conceivably just snatch werewolves up due to their inborn purpose and leave others... well, not unaffected, but not wholly consumed, if consumed at all. It's paid forward by Corax having to reproduce by a taxing ritual that can be disrupted and turned back on itself to produce Buzzards. If a being gathered in tribes in the manner of Garou, it might be a different story, but they typically have more significant divisions than cultural ones, what with Bastet tribes being what kind of cat a character is and Mokole Streams being less distinct than tribes due to how Mnesis is more shared the further one goes back into it.
                I don't accept that at all, and I find this perspective surprising. I think Garou were the only ones foolish enough to enter the Black Spiral Labyrinth, but I think if any other Fera had the gall to do so they would end up being just as unwholesome and evil afterward. I see nothing in the nature of the other changing breeds that describes the level of incorruptibility you seem to ascribe them.

                You are selling the Wyrm short if you think the only possible way it could spiritually corrupt a Corax is to do it while it is in the egg.

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                • #9
                  I think that their sanity would be blasted into pieces and, if vulnerable, would be subjected to many attempts for permanent possession, but I think that only Garou are corrupted in the fashion similar to the BSD. I think that the spiritual protections of their roles protect the other Fera from that specific threat, but they face other threats from the Wyrm.

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                  • #10
                    I am currently undecided on the Black Spiral Dancer Part. I have no trouble with said player playing a Fera, nor do I let them do as they please. I simply do not want to force my interpretation of the lore onto people without being able to back it up. Of course I can simply say "This is what I'll go with, deal with it", but I prefer not doing so. Thank your all for the input so far.

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                    • #11
                      In revised the Ceilican had been ambushed by the BSD & turned into Hellcats (i'm not sured if W20 changing breeds retconed that or slightly altered it, as in most Ceilican escaped that fate due to fae cat shenanigans)

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Kendaan View Post
                        In revised the Ceilican had been ambushed by the BSD & turned into Hellcats (i'm not sured if W20 changing breeds retconed that or slightly altered it, as in most Ceilican escaped that fate due to fae cat shenanigans)
                        Well, at that point, I could see how a developer might not want to devote all the word count that all of the particular corrupted versions of something might take. Especially the Bastet.

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                        • #13
                          Personally I think if a Fera gets tossed into the Spiral, they would end up as whatever the corrupted version of their type is. Sure there are other ways to get Balesharks or Bitter Grins, but dancing the Spiral should work just fine in addition to the more typical ways.

                          I don't remember the exact tests for each layer of the Spiral, but I don't see why the other Fera couldn't work their way through offhand. I will have to go back and look it up when I get a chance later.


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                          • #14
                            I'm of a mind that any Fera can decide to join the Wyrm, pledge themselves, be accepted, and become Wyrm tainted. And just use the rules for the BSD equivalent for their group.

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Monalfie View Post
                              I'm of a mind that any Fera can decide to join the Wyrm, pledge themselves, be accepted, and become Wyrm tainted. And just use the rules for the BSD equivalent for their group.
                              I agree with this. Though I think the thread specifically had the Spiral in mind and what effects it would have.


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