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Bone Gnawers and lower class among wolves

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  • #16
    Originally posted by WISDOMINCHAINS View Post
    Garou pack / military squad / police recruit class / street gangs/ college frats and sororities ....they all share one thing in common that transcends class and race etc......

    They harass, bully, and posture against the "lowest percieved or the mentally or physically weakest member(s)". This serves to strengthen and bond the group .

    Im not saying its the way the world should be , but it's the way the world is. That being said , in the world of darkness it should be even worse.

    Deserved or undeserved it matters little to humans and some animals , I can only imagine what it would be like for Garou in the WoD.
    Thing is, the captive pack structure is more akin to a prison than an actual squad formed for a purpose. The reason there is an omega in the first place, is that they cannot leave a dangerous situation. Plus, the groups engaging in the behaviour you listed (minus the garou pack) are based on a macho reliant culture. That is, proving ones masculinity is paramount to ones status. That is why homophobia is so common among street gangs, frat boys, and some police and military squads. Homosexuality often treated as a threat to ones masculinity and therefore status in the group. It isn't solely a male problem, of course, it is just more visible in men. It is not really something that is common behaviour if there is no stress to prove yourself. Hence why it is so brutal in prisons where the stress of being locked up is directed into violence for some.

    However, while some garou might be like this, there are many who aren't. Lupus are raised in families and don't encounter dominance until thet first change. Metis grow up in a society where might is right, but where generally there are also methods to handle proving oneself through challenges without a perceived status being hurt. And cultures of the tribes are varied.

    Main point of this thread, however, was that the revised tribebook painted the homelessness and lack of money of Gnawers and their kinfolk as their own fault.
    Last edited by Ana Mizuki; 02-06-2017, 07:16 PM.


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    • #17
      The Get of Fenris are probably the most patriarchal, followed by the Fianna. When you get away from those two Tribes, homophobia and misogyny start falling away pretty quickly. This is especially true if individuals are willing to contribute to the care of the children of the Tribe.

      For example, take the Silver Fangs. You would expect them to be patriarchal, but there is no reason for them to be because the most powerful noble on Earth is the Queen of England. Blood purity, rather than gender or sexuality, matters to them, and there is not much difference to them between a Bone Gnawer and a Fianna with Pure Breed 0. The Bone Gnawer might actually be preferable company because the Bone Gnawer would know her place in society and may be a useful servant.

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      • #18
        Originally posted by Aya Tari View Post
        The Get of Fenris are probably the most patriarchal, followed by the Fianna. When you get away from those two Tribes, homophobia and misogyny start falling away pretty quickly. This is especially true if individuals are willing to contribute to the care of the children of the Tribe.
        Even the Fenrir I'd say aren't that prone to it, unless they are mostly American born. Here in the north, women generally have always held a position of some equality. Given surviving here often means dealing with 5+ months of darkness combined with snow and cold, there really is no room to get that strict with roles and who decides.


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        • #19
          Originally posted by Aya Tari View Post
          Yeah, I think the Fianna or Get of Fenris are much more represented in Appalachia myself because of the Celtic and Germanic bloodlines.
          Those were certainly represented as well in the old regional book. They tended to be more regular backgrounds though with the Bone Gnawers being specifically hillbillies - people living under persistent poverty and lack of infrastrcuture/amenities.

          Bone Gnawers should originally be the urban North African and West Asian Tribe (with the Silent Strides originally being the rural North African and West Asian Tribe).
          I personally prefer the tribe's origins to be in India because that is far closer to the rat's origin in Southeast Asia. If we want the Bone Gnawers to be an old tribe, they have to originate there. Later as they spread and became the litter runts of the tribes, their ethnic basis would have broken down fairly quickly. Personally I think that as the rat spread westward, the Bone Gnawers followed and planted the flag so that they were in the Roman Empire and Europe by the time of the caesars.

          The negative associations against the Tribe would arise from traditional European racism against non-European during the early 15th through early 20th centuries, and they were mistreated by the European Garou in America and Europe much like Europeans in America and Europe mistreated North African and West Asian immigrants during the same period (and anyone who denies racism from that period should just read the books written by authors of that period).
          I would put the origins of modern racism much later - late 17th century perhaps. There were antecedents of course, but they were much different from European beliefs in the 19th century. The Europeans were certainly culturally chauvinist (as were almost every other world culture), but the big distinguishing mark was religion, not race. There were Ethiopian priests at the Council of Constance in the early 15th century, and the color of their skin was utterly unimportant. The Ottomans weren't hated because they were seen as inferior, but because they were powerful. And when direct contact was made with the Far East, most Europeans understood they were in the presence of cultural and technological equals who were superior in certain ways. It wasn't until later when the gulf between European advancement and relative backwardness of the rest of the world that the Europeans began to invent reasons for that and true racism started to take hold. They certainly weren't alone though - the Arabs have a lot of negative writings on what they thought of sub-Saharan Africans too, and the Chinese had dim views of all barbarians. So I don't buy the idea that the Bone Gnawers were only held in ill esteem because of some kind of bias from one human culture.

          The Bone Gnawers are supposed to be the runts who feed last from the prey carcass. They were small and weak, so they sought help from a totem who was also small and weak yet flourished. So when they became a tribe, they decided their protectorate were the small and weak. And as who made up the small and weak changed, their protectorate and numbers included them.

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          • #20
            Originally posted by Aya Tari View Post
            The Get of Fenris are probably the most patriarchal, followed by the Fianna. When you get away from those two Tribes, homophobia and misogyny start falling away pretty quickly. This is especially true if individuals are willing to contribute to the care of the children of the Tribe.

            For example, take the Silver Fangs. You would expect them to be patriarchal, but there is no reason for them to be because the most powerful noble on Earth is the Queen of England. Blood purity, rather than gender or sexuality, matters to them, and there is not much difference to them between a Bone Gnawer and a Fianna with Pure Breed 0. The Bone Gnawer might actually be preferable company because the Bone Gnawer would know her place in society and may be a useful servant.
            If you are looking at human Kinfolk, Glasswalkers avoid it by modernization, and Striders avoid it by induction rather than a strong connection to their Kin.

            Shadow Lords and Striders though, are from the most openly mysoginistic and homophobic parts of the world, and it's not really a new thing. While the wolves wouldn't have huge issues, getting past the human aspects would be an uphill battle.

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            • #21
              I don't know, I think in a game which is as socially aware as Werewolf, it behooves the game to make it clear that there's at least one substantially poor and impoverished tribe. A tribe which does suffer from a definite lack of resources. Though my take on the Bonegnawers was actually not that they were the LEAST successful tribe but they were the MOST. Because the other Garou tribes are dying out while the Bone Gnawers numbers remain steady.

              They may be the "mutts" of the Garou Nation but they are survivors, dangerous, and ruthlessly pragmatic in a way which makes them better than the majority of the idiot fundamentalists who run the Garou Nation.

              They'll be the last tribe to fall in the Apocalypse, IMHO.

              So basically Bone Gnawers are a bit more like Ratkin to me than pathetic. Those who are at the bottom of society are looked down upon but that's to the folly of the upper class, not the lower class.

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              • #22
                To my knowledge, the lack of resources was of supernatural origin, a curse placed upon the tribe by... um... jackal? Can't quite remember. So it's literally impossible for the BGs to drag themselves up (ignoring the change from W20 making Resources only discouraged). Whether that makes it more or less socially acceptable, I don't know.
                As for the lack of respect, I think it's about several factors. First, the lack of resources certainly plays into it - most werewolves have to mooch off their kinfolk, but Bone Gnawers have to mooch off other Garou (and other Garou's kinfolk), thus resulting in a dependency that may make others grow to loathe them because it's more overt. Then there's the fact Rat takes pretty much everyone. Siggi Bjornson who ran away from the battle? He's a Bone Gnawer now. Howls-In-Darkness and her deformed bastard daughter? Kicked out from the Lords, off to the Bone Gnawers. That's the kind of people other tribes see joining. Add to that that BG operations are mostly invisible to other tribes due to them staying away from the cities, but take up their time ("Wanna help us assault the Spiral Hive?"-"I'd like to, but there's this thing with the oprhanage…"-"Sure there is…") and the omega status may solidify. In a better world, perhaps it wouldn't have, but the Garou Nation didn't exactly get to the place where it is by always going for the sensible choices.

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                • #23
                  I'm thinking of making fanon at my table the Bone Gnawer's "Secret Origin" is they're the descendants of Kinfolk who interbred outside of tribal lines. Which would be a nice way of showing the Garou Nation doesn't even REMEMBER why they do 90% of what they do.

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post
                    I'm thinking of making fanon at my table the Bone Gnawer's "Secret Origin" is they're the descendants of Kinfolk who interbred outside of tribal lines. Which would be a nice way of showing the Garou Nation doesn't even REMEMBER why they do 90% of what they do.
                    That's kind of like being clever like 2nd edition Exalted. Which didn't end up being all that clever in trying to explain everything, all things told.

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                    • #25
                      I think that I like that Resources are discouraged rather than forbidden for Bone Gnawers. I like the idea of the Silver Fangs having to beg a Bone Gnawer billionaire for contributions (especially if the Bone Gnawer is born to African American, Latin American, or Native American parents). Of course, non-white Bone Gnawers can also make alliances more easily with Uktenu or Wedigo, especially if they are Native American.

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                      • #26
                        Actually the depiction of both poverty/homeless and low income is a bit skewed. Having lived on the border between middle class and poverty level most of my life I'll share a few thoughts:

                        ​1) Poor folk either rural or urban share survival strategies: As a child growing up I wore hand me down clothes from my older cousins my outgrown clothes were in turn handed down to cousins younger than me. My childhood bathrobe passed through every male in the family younger than me.

                        ​2) Spam is your friend canned meat is great it keeps for a long time and can be used in a variety of dishes.

                        3) Church drives/garage sales are your best friend you can buy a lot of clothes at garage sales cheap. Doesn't matter if they don't fit you someone can fit into it.

                        ​4) Poor people tend to hold onto cash, don't use credit, or banks. Poor people and those raised in poverty tend to be frugal/cheap clipping coupons is a way of life as is buying in bulk. Never buy name brands generic is cheaper. Even better find a bent and dent store.

                        ​In summary much like the Black Fury and the even worse CoG tribebook the Bone Gnawer revised book was insulting.

                        ​PS Most homeless people are honestly trying to get off the street and just need a hand.

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Aya Tari View Post
                          I think that I like that Resources are discouraged rather than forbidden for Bone Gnawers. I like the idea of the Silver Fangs having to beg a Bone Gnawer billionaire for contributions (especially if the Bone Gnawer is born to African American, Latin American, or Native American parents). Of course, non-white Bone Gnawers can also make alliances more easily with Uktenu or Wedigo, especially if they are Native American.
                          I would imagine it is more likely that it would be a Bone Gnawer Kin that was the Billionaire. Its discouraged because Rat doesn't place value in property itself but in using property to support your brood. Most Garou don't have a legacy of being the ones who are personally rich, its usually Garou are the Patriarch/Matriarchs of Families and Extended Family like Kinfolk who cultivate fortunes. Glasswalkers are the Exceptions as they place value in Pursuits that lead to riches. Silver Fangs aren't even necessarily rich, they are old money but they could have no money, but when they need money they have kinfolk who are part of the Russian Mob, or the families that all the local hospitals, schools and libraries are named after.

                          And the Bonegnawers spiritual curse from Jackal seems to be embraced by Rat. No a random Bonegnawer billionaire is not just uncommon, its literally unheard of, but no reason they can't have kin that made a fortune.


                          It is a time for great deeds!

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                          • #28
                            I am not sure if the Curse of the Jackal is canon in W20.

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                            • #30
                              I think the last article hits the mark on what I've tried to portray in my post, the kind of disdain towards poor people that is unconcious but harmful.


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