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Repairing the Veil

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  • Repairing the Veil

    So, I had a question about how do you repair the Veil. There are three primary threats to the Veil. First, leaving physical evidence behind after a kill (claw and fang marks, blood, fur, and saliva). Second, leaving photographic evidence (such as people snapping pictures or security cameras taking videos). Third, eyewitnesses who are strong willed enough to suppress the Delirium.

    In the first case, it is easy avoided by using weapons and attacking from stealth. While werewolves have superhuman stealth, the wounds from an ax fetich swung by a Garou in Glabro is similar enough to the wounds from ax swung by a psycho on PCP that no one will think 'supernatural' creature. If you slip up, you can repair the Veil by contaminating the evidence.

    In the second case, you can prevent detection by running around in any form except Crinos. If you get caught on film in Crinos, you can destroy the film or corrupt the files to repair the Veil.

    In the third case, there is a temptation to kill the witnesses, but that is probably a bad idea. People spouting nonsense about werewolves can be easily ignored. People spouting nonsense about werewolves and then being butchered by wolves gives legitimacy to their claims. The way to repair the Veil is to discredit the witnesses by making them seem insane so that other people will not be believed if they come forward.

    What other risks to the Veil can you think of and what are the correct (abound incorrect) ways your characters have dealt with them?

  • #2
    On that matter, which tribe would be more typically "in charge" of the clean up process?

    Silver Fangs have Desk Jobs at Television Stations? Shadow Lords leading Forensic Teams made of Dirty Cops? Glass Walker Wise-Guys who make offers that witnesses "can't refuse"?

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    • #3
      Money.

      Discredit the person so people think they are crazy.

      Murder.

      Convince them you are the good guys and recruit them to your cause (rare, but may be worth the effort if they are lost kinfolk)

      Blame the incident on Ergot poisoning or whatever the modern equivalent would be.

      I imagine each Sept would be in charge of dealing with the issue themselves. Glasswalkers would be my first thought for clean up, but I imagine any technologically minded Kinfolk could do just as well.


      I have this possible plot point I may use in my quest. A Red Talon Sept has members who broke the "don't eat people" line of the Litany. Unfortunately, the people they ate were young college aged hikers. So now you have a major search going on for the college girls, which is all over national news. Nothing werewolfy in the news... yet. A CoG Lupus relative of the PC's pack has been sent to find the Litany Breakers and wants the PC's pack to come along to assist with the Human side of the situation. And the Human side will be Reporters, FBI Agents, and Hunters, oh my!


      Are you ready to rage? Discover if you are Brave Enough to fight for the soul of the world.

      The Werewolf: the Apocalypse Quest updates on Mondays. All are welcome to vote.

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      • #4
        Yeah, the major problem for the local Garou is that there is likely physical evidence, since Red Talons are rarely educated enough to possess the knowledge of forensic anthropology needed to clean up all the evidence. Unsolved murders occur because they usually happen to people the authorities do not care about. When you have something that high profile, they are probably going to find evidence of a kill by canines.

        The best case sceneries for that situation is to drag the Red Talon to Erebus and toss him in the Silver Lake as a preventive measure before repairing the Veil. Find a few feral dogs, infect them with rabies, and shoot them near the remains of one of the girls. The news story is 'Rapid dogs kill college girls' rather than 'Wolf pack kills college girls'. You can even have experts coming on TV talking about the dangers of feral dogs to humans when compared to the peaceful relations of wild wolves with humans.

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        • #5
          Originally posted by Aya Tari View Post
          Yeah, the major problem for the local Garou is that there is likely physical evidence, since Red Talons are rarely educated enough to possess the knowledge of forensic anthropology needed to clean up all the evidence. Unsolved murders occur because they usually happen to people the authorities do not care about. When you have something that high profile, they are probably going to find evidence of a kill by canines.

          The best case sceneries for that situation is to drag the Red Talon to Erebus and toss him in the Silver Lake as a preventive measure before repairing the Veil. Find a few feral dogs, infect them with rabies, and shoot them near the remains of one of the girls. The news story is 'Rapid dogs kill college girls' rather than 'Wolf pack kills college girls'. You can even have experts coming on TV talking about the dangers of feral dogs to humans when compared to the peaceful relations of wild wolves with humans.
          The PCs first job will be to take care of the evidence. "Go find the murder site while I go sniff these Red Talon Assholes."

          The whole situation is a big mess which makes it a perfect plot for an RPG.


          Are you ready to rage? Discover if you are Brave Enough to fight for the soul of the world.

          The Werewolf: the Apocalypse Quest updates on Mondays. All are welcome to vote.

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          • #6
            Repairing the Veil is much easier in older times than now with modern forensics. The idea that a werewolf attack can be disguised as psychos on PCP won't hold up to any kind of crime scene investigation in 2017. This will probably confuse the police more than cause them to suspect werewolfery, but there is a much higher risk that evidence is going to fall into the hands of real dangers to the Garou - vampires with influence in the Police, various kinds of hunters, etc.

            PCs tend to do stupid things in regards to the Veil because players prioritize what is fun to do at the moment over concern for the Veil. In more realistic cases, Garou cubs have probably been very well instructed to prioritize the Veil as the first or second most important part of the Litany and been told lots of examples of what happens when the Veil is broken. So that means they handle situations with a care. Prevention, not repair, is the most effective means.

            But this doesn't answer the question. So what can be done in a modern concept? The below aren't necessarily things the PCs can do, but they are probably things a sept as whole can do.

            1) Many things are now digitized. If you can't physically remove the evidence, you can try to hide it digitally by asking Weaver spirits on the web to remove files, make them inaccessible, alter them, etc. Glass Walker Theurges are probably highly in demand. I wouldn't be surprised if there was some kind of Glass Walker forensics institute whose full time job is to handle requests for the entire Garou Nation to assist various septs to do that. In fact, I would not be surprised if there aren't many kinds of Garou Nation level resources staffed by Silver Fangs, Glass Walkers, and others (and their kinfolk) to act as support for the Nation as a whole to do various things when septs themselves are overwhelmed. (This is probably an under explored area of the setting).

            2) Ruin the evidence to make it useless. Cause a water pipe to explode in the evidence room. Start a fire from an electrical short. Cause an electrical black out in the city blocks where the evidence is kept. Summon rats and vermin to invade the place. These are highly suspect things in and of themselves and can't be used willy nilly, but in some extreme circumstances they can be warranted.

            3) Make placement of kinfolk in key institutions (police, hospitals, government) a priority. Hopefully that kinfolk can be put in charge of the investigation and/or crime lab. Even kinfolk technical experts who could be retained by the police department for consulting, or called by lawyers to appear in court to discredit evidence would be useful.

            4) Have fall guys ready. If there is a psycho on PCP ready at the time some Garou kill people, then unleash that psycho right now and have the police gun him down. That way the investigation ends quickly before all the evidence can be analyzed quickly. This is something the Bone Gnawer tribe might be good at - finding potential patsies to blame things on. Of course there would be some ethical dilemmas involved, but the Garou have done worse on the behalf of Gaia.

            5) Come up with your own semi-plausible theories of why these things happen without reference to werewolves,and get them established as accepted explanations in the WoD setting. Maybe there are urban legends, psychiatric illnesses, bacterial spoilage and other kinds of contamination, used to explain these things. They don't really exist, but they are believed to be real in the WoD because of some very hard work by the collective Garou Nation over the years.

            6) Special kinds of spirits that can eliminate or destroy evidence. This is perhaps the easiest thing to do especially for PCs. In fact, I've seen a few chronicles that have some kind of version like this so Garou and Wyrm minions can summon these spirits and protect the Veil.

            The best way I know to get PCs to act appropriately is to make sure they suffer punishments because of their actions. Make them lose renown. Deny them access to the caern for a while. Send hunters or Wyrm creatures after them. Make their pack totem angry with them. Once they pay a real penalty, they typically act better afterwards. The players typically aren't happy about it though so expect some complaints!

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            • #7
              Originally posted by Aya Tari View Post
              Yeah, the major problem for the local Garou is that there is likely physical evidence, since Red Talons are rarely educated enough to possess the knowledge of forensic anthropology needed to clean up all the evidence. Unsolved murders occur because they usually happen to people the authorities do not care about. When you have something that high profile, they are probably going to find evidence of a kill by canines.
              The chances of humans finding the kill sight in the vast openness of a Red Talon protectorate is slim at best. The may be physical evidence around, but I really do think you underestimate the Talons. It is far more likely that the Hunters (experienced in the Supernatural) are going to find something than any of the normal humans. And since this is talking about a Talon Sept, that means the Elders are going to end up involved. I think the CoG Lupus is going to have their work cut out for them, given that the Sept is going to be closing ranks around the offender. This seems like it will be a much bigger deal from the Garou side of things. But really, the PCs (it sounds like) are there to run interference for the humans. And they will probably end up having to stand between the Sept and the humans for both of their protection. And the Sept certainly isn't going to appreciate it, having outsiders step in and think they know best how to protect the Caern from humans.

              Sounds like fun drama all around.

              Originally posted by Aya Tari View Post
              The best case sceneries for that situation is to drag the Red Talon to Erebus and toss him in the Silver Lake as a preventive measure before repairing the Veil. Find a few feral dogs, infect them with rabies, and shoot them near the remains of one of the girls. The news story is 'Rapid dogs kill college girls' rather than 'Wolf pack kills college girls'. You can even have experts coming on TV talking about the dangers of feral dogs to humans when compared to the peaceful relations of wild wolves with humans.
              Hundreds of thousands of people go missing each year in the US. Most are found, but there are still a couple of thousand that disappear (every year) without a trace. The best case scenario is to just keep any investigators away from any helpful information. After a few weeks things will die down and the 90% of people with interest (generally all except for the Hunters) in searching for the kids will go home. That's the easiest way to manage it.
              There is next to no shot the Sept lets you send it's member to Erebus. So that idea should be right out unless you want to go toe to toe with a Talon Elder (you don't).



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              • #8
                Erebus is a great resource though for the Garou Nation, as it lets them recycle the guilty.

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                • #9
                  To go off topic for a bit, what rank would you make the CoG Lupus Philodox?

                  I envisioned him Athro, because he travels around to various Septs as an impartial judge. I always see Tribal Elders being more stationary. He's an old wolf, about fifty to sixty years old. He was born to the Black Furies so technically, he has no Pure Breed. He speaks-but not reads- more human languages than most homids. ("What the fuck does the wolf know about anything?" "Don't underestimate Democritus. He speaks more languages than you do." ) When he is not traveling, he considers the PC's Texas Sept his home (He lets the Adrens run things and only offers assistance when asked). He doesn't have a pack of his own, but when needed he can nip some Garou on their shoulders and form a pack for the needs of the situation.

                  If there is going to be Elder Red Talons involved, would the CoG/Garou Nation want to send Elders of their own?
                  Last edited by wonderandawe; 02-05-2017, 02:33 PM.


                  Are you ready to rage? Discover if you are Brave Enough to fight for the soul of the world.

                  The Werewolf: the Apocalypse Quest updates on Mondays. All are welcome to vote.

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                  • #10
                    The Red Talons are the smallest Tribe, so one of their Septs would be given minimal honors in my opinion. With 1280 Garou in the USA (assuming a population ratio of 1:250,000 for the USA), there might be 40 Red Talons divided among 8 Red Talon Septs in the USA (Garou are exceptionally rare in cWoD). I doubt that there will be more than four Red Talon Elders in the USA, so why bother sending one of your Elders to deal problem?

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                    • #11
                      A universal Human to Garou Ratio isn't really a thing... like at all, that is more a vampire thing...


                      It is a time for great deeds!

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by wonderandawe View Post
                        To go off topic for a bit, what rank would you make the CoG Lupus Philodox?

                        I envisioned him Athro, because he travels around to various Septs as an impartial judge. I always see Tribal Elders being more stationary. He's an old wolf, about fifty to sixty years old. He was born to the Black Furies so technically, he has no Pure Breed. He speaks-but not reads- more human languages than most homids. ("What the fuck does the wolf know about anything?" "Don't underestimate Democritus. He speaks more languages than you do." ) When he is not traveling, he considers the PC's Texas Sept his home (He lets the Adrens run things and only offers assistance when asked). He doesn't have a pack of his own, but when needed he can nip some Garou on their shoulders and form a pack for the needs of the situation.

                        If there is going to be Elder Red Talons involved, would the CoG/Garou Nation want to send Elders of their own?
                        So with all due respect, I would ignore Aya Tari's numbers. Story-wise, this is a Red Talon Sept and so it should be filled with Talons and Kinfolk. What level is the Caern? That will give you an idea of how many Garou you have there. That's all that really matters on that part of this story.

                        For your CoG being Athro, that makes sense. I would have said Rank 4-5 depending on need. If he is well known among the Garou of the region/continent (especially for this sort of role) then they shouldn't need backup going into the Sept, especially with him being Lupus. Without knowing any more details, I would imagine him announcing himself and then talking to the Sept Elder(s) directly. With him explaining what happened, and what the humans know and what he expects will come to the area because of it. His best bet will be to be direct and sincere (since he is) and offer his help, however unwanted. Most of this will play out off screen since I imagine the PCs will be busy doing their own thing on the human side for him. If you have a Lupus in the group, you can have them accompany your CoG if you or they want to.

                        Either way, this CoG should be afforded the respect he deserves (for his Rank and reputation) and after some contention should be able to get the Talons to police their own. Especially since their actions have brought unwanted human attention to the area. He may even be involved in doling out the punishment Rites. Up to you. For the humans venturing into the area, Trackless Waste will handle the majority of them. And 1-2 members of the Sept probably have it.

                        So yea, that leaves your players to run around the local towns and run interference where they can, and maybe to end up standing between some of the lower rank Sept members and their trying to drive off the humans. Possibly even coming into contact with the guilty Garou haphazardly trying to cover their mistake. The Talon Caern may even end up paying for the Litany-breaker's mistake by having a wolf hunt called in the area if things go that far and the humans suspect wolves for killing the hikers. That though, would end up being one of the worst case scenarios, as that means that everyone failed in what they needed to do (the CoG, the Sept and the PC pack).

                        Again, sounds like a fun story setup. Lots of chances for things to go wrong, but lots of different ways to go about getting through it.


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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Eldagusto View Post
                          A universal Human to Garou Ratio isn't really a thing... like at all, that is more a vampire thing...
                          Annnnd that is all that really needs to be said on the matter-

                          Since Red Talons keep coming up, that tribe has a few ways of employing gifts to protect the Veil. Hidden Killer is an easy one, and if the Talon isn't braindead they will likely be very quick to use it on humans they butcher. Another fantastic way that Red Talons defend their territory is through the use of Shadows of the Impergium. Very few humans have the mental wherewithal to remember anything with a -2 willpower penalty, and use of the gift is passive. A Shadow Lord in my current group learned it as a favor and now it is a relatively easy way to destroy the memory of witnesses.

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                          • #14
                            something I've wondered...

                            whats it like to be the only Callow Kin, or high Willpower individual to see a Garou, to have your sanity questioned by your own friends.

                            when they were THERE too.

                            or on a photograph

                            when your coworkers are laughing it off as an obvious hoax.


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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Prince of the Night View Post
                              something I've wondered...

                              whats it like to be the only Callow Kin, or high Willpower individual to see a Garou, to have your sanity questioned by your own friends.

                              when they were THERE too.

                              or on a photograph

                              when your coworkers are laughing it off as an obvious hoax.
                              Scary, I'd imagine. That's the sort of thing that makes the individual question whether or not they really saw what they think they saw. And after a while they will convince themselves that they are obviously wrong, and everyone else was right. It's got to be a lonely, terrifying time.


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