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Balance And Gifts

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  • #16
    Quite nice! I like the emphasis on Nuwisha not having weaknesses or the Kitsune being able to use a knife in Juko!

    Is there other special gifts/traits/fetishs that the Fera could use for different exotic/fighting style?

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    • #17
      Originally posted by Kendaan View Post
      Is there other special gifts/traits/fetishs that the Fera could use for different exotic/fighting style?
      These are off the top of my head:
      Metamorph is insane with Ananasi. Don't bother dodging, just Crawlerling whatever part of your body is about to get hit.

      Ratkin have prehensile tails in Crinos, so you can do some wacky stuff there.

      Rokea get Gifts for automatic levels of bite damage if they can sneak up (at Rank1) and with the Gift (also Rank 1) Breach, they can generally leap 10-20 feet out of the water to do it).

      Corax are actually better off attacking with Sky’s Beneficence. No cost and you just have to see the target and you can hit them with anything you can carry and drop. So against a Garou, attack from a mile and a half up with a silver butterknife.

      Mokole get size stuffs. Or a second brain (if you go by their Breedbook traits) to split dice pools for additional attacks without spending Rage. Or any number of other Archid traits that make them difficult to fight. 15+ soak isn't impossible, even without Gifts to boost it further.

      Nagah venom is just plain OP. So is some Ananasi venom, but that's more ST fiat.

      Gurahl can get bear hug Gifts (Rank 2 and 3 from memory) to boost an already Str based attack and Str based damage (extra dice and the ability to bear hug at a distance, which will likely eliminate an opponent's dodge)

      Kitsune get an origami Gift to bring the paper animal to life. I would just drop paper elephants or whales on enemies.

      Edit: adding the 2 I missed:
      Bastet Tactics depend on the Tribe specifically, because they vary so much.

      Ajaba: My favorite Gift is Crushing Jaws (Rank 2). Get a lock on the enemy somewhere they can't reach and your bite damage continues to go up each round automatically. If they don't kill you, they will eventually die, no matter what that enemy's soak is.
      Last edited by idpersona; 02-05-2017, 08:19 PM.


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      • #18
        Nuwisha actually have a level 3 Gift that gives them Rage 5 for 1 point of Willpower. Since it can be used once a scene, a Nuwisha with 10 Willpower could actually use it a lot.

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        • #19
          Originally posted by Aya Tari View Post
          Nuwisha actually have a level 3 Gift that gives them Rage 5 for 1 point of Willpower. Since it can be used once a scene, a Nuwisha with 10 Willpower could actually use it a lot.
          I was trying to stick with the Rank 1 example for the Nuwisha and the Kitsune for emphasis on just how silly some of the Fera can get if you really want to go about building them certain ways.

          But yea, once you start increasing the example Rank to 2 or 3, things get out of hand (and hard to plan for) quickly.


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          • #20
            Trouble is that making everyone OP doesn't fix anything. If everyone is broken, person who wins initiative wins the interaction, quite simply. Do STs tend to stop these sorts of shenanigans?

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            • #21
              Originally posted by 11twiggins View Post
              Trouble is that making everyone OP doesn't fix anything. If everyone is broken, person who wins initiative wins the interaction, quite simply. Do STs tend to stop these sorts of shenanigans?
              Well yea (just speaking for me). Just because something canbe done in system, doesn't mean it should be.

              And if you see a player setting up a character like this, you kind of know in advance what you're in for. I actually expect a certain amount of min/maxing from my players. I don't mind it really. Taken to extremes though, it screws up the balance (and fun) of the game. And the Fang Dagger has always been all sorts of broken. So I have a house rule to fix it. I don;t see why it should be more feared than the Klaive is.

              And initiative isn't the only thing that determines the winner. There are ways to absorb/ignore ridiculous amounts of damage as well.


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              • #22
                Originally posted by idpersona View Post
                Well yea (just speaking for me). Just because something canbe done in system, doesn't mean it should be.

                And if you see a player setting up a character like this, you kind of know in advance what you're in for. I actually expect a certain amount of min/maxing from my players. I don't mind it really. Taken to extremes though, it screws up the balance (and fun) of the game. And the Fang Dagger has always been all sorts of broken. So I have a house rule to fix it. I don;t see why it should be more feared than the Klaive is.

                And initiative isn't the only thing that determines the winner. There are ways to absorb/ignore ridiculous amounts of damage as well.
                What's your house rule for fang dagger?

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by idpersona View Post

                  Rokea get Gifts for automatic levels of bite damage if they can sneak up (at Rank1) and with the Gift (also Rank 1) Breach, they can generally leap 10-20 feet out of the water to do it).
                  You're conflating two Gifts there; one gives bonus dice of damage to surprise attacks (Unseen Attack), the other gives automatic levels as a hanging benefit to the Rokea's next attack (Killing Bite)

                  Corax are actually better off attacking with Sky’s Beneficence. No cost and you just have to see the target and you can hit them with anything you can carry and drop. So against a Garou, attack from a mile and a half up with a silver butterknife.
                  The point is, they're attackers and spies, not fighters, to borrow some aircraft terminology.

                  Mokole get size stuffs. Or a second brain (if you go by their Breedbook traits)
                  Just about everything from the breedbook is probably best walled off as a probationary trait. This is the book that can't recall that synapsids like Dimetrodon weren't actually reptiles, after all. Also, we have to hold off on size-related advantages until Tall actually does something sensible instead of providing a situational Perception bonus.

                  to split dice pools for additional attacks without spending Rage. Or any number of other Archid traits that make them difficult to fight. 15+ soak isn't impossible, even without Gifts to boost it further.

                  Nagah venom is just plain OP. So is some Ananasi venom, but that's more ST fiat.

                  Gurahl can get bear hug Gifts (Rank 2 and 3 from memory) to boost an already Str based attack and Str based damage (extra dice and the ability to bear hug at a distance, which will likely eliminate an opponent's dodge)
                  They can also bear hug at a distance, and their basic Rage improves both the attack and damage pools of grappling efforts. The Deadly Hugbear casts her shadow over the battlefield, and all know that they will be crushed into pulp with her 25-dice attack pool and base damage of 20...

                  Kitsune get an origami Gift to bring the paper animal to life. I would just drop paper elephants or whales on enemies.
                  They get ofuda to do just about anything, really.

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by 11twiggins View Post
                    As a foreword, I have never played WTA, but I have read most of the Changing Breeds book and I know a decent bit of the Fera lore (my only impression of Garou thus far is "gullible angry genocidal bastards", but I'm sure there's more to it than that.).

                    Anyways, I'm very much interested in the roles each group was given. I love that the Corax aren't meant to be Fighters, I love that the Ananasi want to restore the Triat to balance, I love that the Ratfolk cull mankind... but the Gifts... the Gifts just ruin everything sometimes.
                    Does it help to explain that Gifts aren't meant to be an internal progression of anything, and that they purely rely on what spirits are willing to give you something to use? Because if the Corax example is baffling, wrap your head around the fact that Rokea get their equivalent of Gift of the Porcupine (Rank Four metis) as a starting Gift, and their version of Fenris' Bite, normally a Rank Five Gift, one rank earlier.

                    (On the flipside, Bastet learn Master of Fire one rank later, and Mokole, Rokea, and Nagah also learn Fire Claws one rank later than other Beast Courts members because of their ties to water and inborn spiritual distance from fire and flames. This makes it so that Gift levels can never be taken as an indicator of power, unless they are Rank 6, and possibly not even then, since Rokea learn their equivalent of Shield of Gaia one rank lower than Red Talons!)

                    And that's not even getting into how any Garou or Fera can learn the rite, Flaming Death Spears, when the end actually draws nigh. Horde of fomori standing in your way? Technocratic killsat swinging its orbit in your direction, and they're all paranoid and/or compromised? Mages sent a bunch of zmei-alikes after you?

                    Get out your firebird-imbued bow or gun or even rock, and let it loose. It'll keep going, and going, and going, and keeps building up damage dice for every range increment it travels (the barrage has no maximum range and keeps going through everything in its path, and presumably it passes up into the air at some angle and keeps traveling off into space). That threat is either no more, or has had its wings clipped. Regrettably, there always seems to be a new need for such a talen, but they're one use and take several points of Gnosis and a particular type of spirit to make.
                    Last edited by Saur Ops Specialist; 02-05-2017, 09:08 PM.

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by WISDOMINCHAINS View Post
                      What's your house rule for fang dagger?
                      So it's mostly just using the system for the Lionfang Fetish from W:tDA which was written to be the giant version of a Fang Dagger. The Lionfang (level 5, Gnosis 8) is a large 2 handed weapon that does Str+4 damage +2 automatic levels of damage. The weapon can be activated for an additional 2 levels of damage and all damage done by it is Agg.

                      So I just have the Fang Dagger do Str damage plus 1 automatic level of damage. And it can be activated for an additional 2 levels of damage. And the damage is always Agg, to keep it in balance with other level 3 weapon Fetishes. This sets it up to be a weaker version of the Lionsfang, and not have it overshadow the Klaive. Worked out fine for my games. My friend also changed it so the Dagger only did Agg when activated for their game. Both ways worked out better than the rules as written for it.

                      Originally posted by Saur Ops Specialist View Post
                      You're conflating two Gifts there; one gives bonus dice of damage to surprise attacks (Unseen Attack), the other gives automatic levels as a hanging benefit to the Rokea's next attack (Killing Bite)
                      Thank you much. Like I said, I was going from memory. Still easy enough to do for a starter character. And so it ends up with +4 damage together then right? And I seem to remember a "Great Bite" maneuver that does Str +3 Agg base?

                      Originally posted by Saur Ops Specialist View Post
                      Just about everything from the breedbook is probably best walled off as a probationary trait. This is the book that can't recall that synapsids like Dimetrodon weren't actually reptiles, after all. Also, we have to hold off on size-related advantages until Tall actually does something sensible instead of providing a situational Perception bonus.
                      I personally allow the Breedbook traits, if they weren't reprinted, if only because you can make up your own as needed and shouldn't feel the need to be bound solely by the short list in CB20. Fair point though.

                      Originally posted by Saur Ops Specialist View Post
                      They can also bear hug at a distance, and their basic Rage improves both the attack and damage pools of grappling efforts. The Deadly Hugbear casts her shadow over the battlefield, and all know that they will be crushed into pulp with her 25-dice attack pool and base damage of 20...
                      Yea....Gurahl are fun. The no extra actions though definitely hurts.



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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by idpersona View Post
                        Thank you much. Like I said, I was going from memory. Still easy enough to do for a starter character. And so it ends up with +4 damage together then right? And I seem to remember a "Great Bite" maneuver that does Str +3 Agg base?
                        +2 levels, +4 dice, so Strength +7, in effect.

                        I personally allow the Breedbook traits, if they weren't reprinted, if only because you can make up your own as needed and shouldn't feel the need to be bound solely by the short list in CB20. Fair point though.
                        Given the era of their production, they should also probably be buffed if you use them. Except for contact poison; that needs to be toned down a bit.

                        Yea....Gurahl are fun. The no extra actions though definitely hurts.
                        Technically, no extra actions until you're an elder Uzmati, but few characters are, so it stands.
                        Last edited by Saur Ops Specialist; 02-06-2017, 04:37 AM.

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