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  • Garou and Changelings

    I know Garou consider Vampires leeches and of the Wyrm. Mages are Gnosis thieves and the Garou are wary of them.

    How do Garou see Changelings? I know Fianna and House Fiona have blood ties, but what of the other tribes of Garou?


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    The Werewolf: the Apocalypse Quest updates on Mondays. All are welcome to vote.

  • #2
    Originally posted by wonderandawe View Post
    I know Garou consider Vampires leeches and of the Wyrm. Mages are Gnosis thieves and the Garou are wary of them.

    How do Garou see Changelings? I know Fianna and House Fiona have blood ties, but what of the other tribes of Garou?
    Perceptions of them vary a lot by Tribe. Outside of the Tribes with specific ties to them though (Fianna being the most notable), they're mostly just viewed as inconsequential (generally somewhat Wyld-aligned).
    The Spirals though, do have ties to the Unseelie in some of the books. But I think that's more the Werewolf writers not being on the same page as the Changeling writers.


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    • #3
      oh curious?

      Is it safe to say the Shadow lords are most likely to treat with Ailil?

      as they have so much i n common.


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      • #4
        Do they have a name for Changelings? Or do they just call them fairies or fae?


        Are you ready to rage? Discover if you are Brave Enough to fight for the soul of the world.

        The Werewolf: the Apocalypse Quest updates on Mondays. All are welcome to vote.

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        • #5
          Originally posted by Prince of the Night View Post
          oh curious?

          Is it safe to say the Shadow lords are most likely to treat with Ailil?

          as they have so much i n common.
          The Ailil have an affinity for the Shadow Lords, or at least werewolves with the traits the tribe encourages, but the Lords aren't one of the tribes who have a specific tie to the fae.


          Scion 2E: What We Know - A wiki compiling info on second edition Scion.

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          • #6
            Originally posted by Prince of the Night View Post
            oh curious?

            Is it safe to say the Shadow lords are most likely to treat with Ailil?

            as they have so much i n common.
            The Shadow Lord (Revised) book was fairly dismissive about Changelings in general. Mostly a "they're just about dead and gone and don't matter" attitude. They don't seem to care about them one way or another.

            Originally posted by wonderandawe View Post
            Do they have a name for Changelings? Or do they just call them fairies or fae?
            All of the above? It really depended on the writer I think. And some books confused it even more by saying that Faerie spirits could teach Gifts, which adds a whole other level of confusion on how to deal with them. I think most of the Revised books referred to them as "Changelings", but even then you had faerie spirits mentioned in a couple of places in the books.


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            • #7
              Originally posted by idpersona View Post
              The Shadow Lord (Revised) book was fairly dismissive about Changelings in general. Mostly a "they're just about dead and gone and don't matter" attitude. They don't seem to care about them one way or another.
              The Ailil section of Pour L'Amour et Libertie, meanwhile, says that among the werewolves they have an affinity for are those who display a flair for politics and intrigue, and are confident in their own abilities. While the Lords are the Garou most associated with those traits, they're not the only ones.


              Scion 2E: What We Know - A wiki compiling info on second edition Scion.

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              • #8
                Originally posted by idpersona View Post
                All of the above? It really depended on the writer I think. And some books confused it even more by saying that Faerie spirits could teach Gifts, which adds a whole other level of confusion on how to deal with them. I think most of the Revised books referred to them as "Changelings", but even then you had faerie spirits mentioned in a couple of places in the books.
                The Arcadian Gateway realm in WtA intentionally blurs the line between faeries and spirits, and to be honest, I am not sure most werewolves would care about the differences. I don't really like having the changelings be their own inexplicable special thing in a werewolf game (demons are also potentially jarring to include).

                I tend to simplify things and just make changelings and fae Wyld-oriented spirits or possessed with suitable bans or weaknesses. They can be good or bad, but most Garou have more pressing issues as the faeries die off or abandon Gaia under the unrelenting assault of the Weaver. They can be useful bellweather guides for establishing how potent the Wyld might be in an untamed area, but in a game about Garou and the Apocalypse, I am not going to overly focus on half-irrelevant pixies.
                Last edited by The Laughing Stranger; 02-15-2017, 01:33 PM.

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                • #9
                  Do you think Changelings would gather around a potential Caern location? I remember there being some overlap of place of power with Mage and Werewolves, but it's been a while since I played Changeling.

                  Would the Garou be willing to negotiate with the Changeling to share the space? Or maybe scare the Changelings off with a "We are going to let you leave in one piece. The Black Spiral Dancers? They'd kill you to take what they want. I think you'd rather deal with us than them. " Or just kill them? (I realize this may depend on tribe and individual werewolves)

                  I'm mostly just brain storming here.


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                  • #10
                    Well, a lot of Garou seem to have medium levels of Banality, so they might not remember much about their dealings with Changeling when they are not Enchanted. The Get of Fenris do remember that the Sidhe rode their ancestors like horses, which is why they kill Sidhe whenever they can, but they will likely not remember much about the fight if the Sidhe uses Calling the Wyrd.

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by wonderandawe View Post
                      Do you think Changelings would gather around a potential Caern location? I remember there being some overlap of place of power with Mage and Werewolves, but it's been a while since I played Changeling.

                      Would the Garou be willing to negotiate with the Changeling to share the space? Or maybe scare the Changelings off with a "We are going to let you leave in one piece. The Black Spiral Dancers? They'd kill you to take what they want. I think you'd rather deal with us than them. " Or just kill them? (I realize this may depend on tribe and individual werewolves)

                      I'm mostly just brain storming here.
                      I think any of those responses work; Fianna would be more friendly, and as Aya Tari noted, Get... not as much. In my own game I have had Nunnehi work with the Pure tribes to protect caerns and wilderness areas. They are not terribly dependable, being creatures of the capricious Wyld, but I think in some cases having fae allies makes sense. As the Weaver grows, the Garou and the Changelings have a common enemy.



                      Originally posted by Aya Tari View Post
                      Well, a lot of Garou seem to have medium levels of Banality, so they might not remember much about their dealings with Changeling when they are not Enchanted ... they will likely not remember much about the fight if the Sidhe uses Calling the Wyrd.

                      I would not really focus on things like banality or the Mists if you are featuring Changelings... for two reasons: 1, If you conclude the encounter with 'but you don't remember any of that. Your character forgets this happened,' why bother include the things in the first place? Nevermind that as a plot device it kinda sucks, but players often find it difficult to selectively delete their in-game experiences.

                      2, other splats do not need to fleshed out to precise and agonizing detail that they are presented with in their own books (this especially includes wonky mechanical details). Like the lupines in VtM, specialized rules loses out in favor of feel and (in-character) mystery. Hell, I've made up different kinds of fey whole cloth, just to keep people on their toes.

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Aya Tari View Post
                        Well, a lot of Garou seem to have medium levels of Banality, so they might not remember much about their dealings with Changeling when they are not Enchanted. The Get of Fenris do remember that the Sidhe rode their ancestors like horses...
                        ...Except in every W:tA book, where this never comes up at all.

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by marin View Post
                          The Ailil section of Pour L'Amour et Libertie, meanwhile, says that among the werewolves they have an affinity for are those who display a flair for politics and intrigue, and are confident in their own abilities. While the Lords are the Garou most associated with those traits, they're not the only ones.
                          The Changeling representations of their relationships with Garou never really matched with the Garou representations of Changeling. So in cases like this, it really is your call to go with however you want to have them (see the Get/Sidhe example below)

                          Originally posted by The Laughing Stranger View Post
                          The Arcadian Gateway realm in WtA intentionally blurs the line between faeries and spirits, and to be honest, I am not sure most werewolves would care about the differences. I don't really like having the changelings be their own inexplicable special thing in a werewolf game (demons are also potentially jarring to include).

                          I tend to simplify things and just make changelings and fae Wyld-oriented spirits or possessed with suitable bans or weaknesses. They can be good or bad, but most Garou have more pressing issues as the faeries die off or abandon Gaia under the unrelenting assault of the Weaver. They can be useful bellweather guides for establishing how potent the Wyld might be in an untamed area, but in a game about Garou and the Apocalypse, I am not going to overly focus on half-irrelevant pixies.
                          I can certainly see that approach. In different games, I've run Changelings/Fae completely differently depending on the needs of the story. This is one place where the books were especially inconsistent.

                          Originally posted by wonderandawe View Post
                          Do you think Changelings would gather around a potential Caern location? I remember there being some overlap of place of power with Mage and Werewolves, but it's been a while since I played Changeling.

                          Would the Garou be willing to negotiate with the Changeling to share the space? Or maybe scare the Changelings off with a "We are going to let you leave in one piece. The Black Spiral Dancers? They'd kill you to take what they want. I think you'd rather deal with us than them. " Or just kill them? (I realize this may depend on tribe and individual werewolves)

                          I'm mostly just brain storming here.
                          Rage across Appalachia was a crossover book for Werewolf and Changeling. You might be able to draw some inspiration from that one for how to handle it. From the Werewolf perspective, I would guess that Freeholds would be set up in similar places to Caerns, but from a Changeling perspective that makes less sense. There have been a few examples in books of areas being shared, so it could work if you need it to story-wise. In general though I don't see it happening terribly often. Banality is an odd trait and if you go with the Mists as written then the Garou wouldn't be tolerating random kids running around their sacred places.

                          Originally posted by Aya Tari View Post
                          Well, a lot of Garou seem to have medium levels of Banality, so they might not remember much about their dealings with Changeling when they are not Enchanted. The Get of Fenris do remember that the Sidhe rode their ancestors like horses, which is why they kill Sidhe whenever they can, but they will likely not remember much about the fight if the Sidhe uses Calling the Wyrd.
                          This is only ever mentioned from the Changeling side (and even then, it's in a section of an addon book, and certainly not mentioned in the core book). The Get book didn't even reprint this idea. So you can take it or leave it depending on your game. It certainly isn't some "true official statement" by any means.
                          Most Get wouldn't know a Sidhe from any other Kith. They barely mention Trolls, and from the description given they don't seem to be Changeling Trolls since they give them far more credit than +2 Strength would account for.
                          Originally posted by The Laughing Stranger View Post
                          I would not really focus on things like banality or the Mists if you are featuring Changelings... for two reasons: 1, If you conclude the encounter with 'but you don't remember any of that. Your character forgets this happened,' why bother include the things in the first place? Nevermind that as a plot device it kinda sucks, but players often find it difficult to selectively delete their in-game experiences.

                          2, other splats do not need to fleshed out to precise and agonizing detail that they are presented with in their own books (this especially includes wonky mechanical details). Like the lupines in VtM, specialized rules loses out in favor of feel and (in-character) mystery. Hell, I've made up different kinds of fey whole cloth, just to keep people on their toes.
                          Yay! for these responses.
                          Last edited by idpersona; 02-15-2017, 03:15 PM.


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                          • #14
                            I want to set up a Freehold in Austin, TX (Keep Austin Weird just screams Changeling to me). A Glasswalker on business in Austin notices the Caern potential for the Freehold. He figures he could buy out the Artists in the neighborhood block... but they aren't selling. The Glasswalkers have the money burning a hole in their pockets and limited time to investigate, so they send in the PC pack to see why the Artists won't sell.

                            And thus you have plot.


                            Are you ready to rage? Discover if you are Brave Enough to fight for the soul of the world.

                            The Werewolf: the Apocalypse Quest updates on Mondays. All are welcome to vote.

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by wonderandawe View Post
                              I want to set up a Freehold in Austin, TX (Keep Austin Weird just screams Changeling to me). A Glasswalker on business in Austin notices the Caern potential for the Freehold. He figures he could buy out the Artists in the neighborhood block... but they aren't selling. The Glasswalkers have the money burning a hole in their pockets and limited time to investigate, so they send in the PC pack to see why the Artists won't sell.

                              And thus you have plot.
                              Sounds good.

                              Just decide in advance how you want to handle the Changeling side of things. As mentioned above you may want to drop the Mists affecting Garou altogether for that sort of story.

                              Or you can have a more complicated backtrack telling of the story. I've tried it once, but my players didn't appreciate it much. They went off to investigate something and I had them "come to" a month and a half later with a couple of free ability points added to their sheets and a new scar or 2. They had to figure out after the fact what exactly happened. Basically they had been enchanted and went on a whole adventure/story with the Fae and the Mists set in afterwards clouding their memory. It's an interesting idea, but harder to pull off than just altering the way the Mists work for your Werewolf game.


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