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I can't wrap my head around W:tA... help me get a clear picture?

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  • I can't wrap my head around W:tA... help me get a clear picture?

    As it relates to the overall "World of Darkness" anyway.

    ​•So you are this ultimate manifestation of mother nature's primal fury made flesh... in order to combat spiritual evils that, more often than not, don't require fang and claw to defeat.
    ​•The overall villain of the setting is the slow (or not so slow?) and subtle (or not so subtle?) corruption of the natural world, but you can't really do anything about it because the tribes just can't quit in-fighting.
    ​•There doesn't seem to be any "personal horror" in this game, as you have complete control of your character except for a frenzy, and unlike in VtM, frenzying isn't necessarily a bad thing?

    ​I know my breakdown is probably wrong (I've never had a chance to actually play in a game), but from other people's stories and such, that's the impression I got.

    ​What is a better description of W:tA that may better capture what the game and it's setting are about?

  • #2
    A group of racist stereotypes band together to serve as homicidal primitivist ecoterrorists?


    Call me Regina or Lex.

    Female pronouns for me, please.

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    • #3
      Originally posted by Schwann145 View Post
      ​•So you are this ultimate manifestation of mother nature's primal fury made flesh... in order to combat spiritual evils that, more often than not, don't require fang and claw to defeat.
      Well, sorta. Keep in mind that werewolves were created deep in pre-history, when more of these evils were capable of being defeated with fang and claw. And while not necessarily the core of the setting, the werewolves were not created to solve these problems alone, they're the ones the were made to be fighty and they're the majority of what's left in modern times whether or not fighty solutions are the best ones.

      There's also plenty in the game dealing with the current difficulty of defeating the enemy being because the enemy figured out that it can send lots of fighty threats to keep the Garou distracted while it figured out how to corrupt its way into all sorts of things that can't be easily solved with fighty solutions. A recurring theme in the game is that most of the setbacks the Garou are dealing with today are largely of their own making (or at least their ancestors making).

      •The overall villain of the setting is the slow (or not so slow?) and subtle (or not so subtle?) corruption of the natural world, but you can't really do anything about it because the tribes just can't quit in-fighting.
      This is the pessimistic view of things. Largely things got as bad as they did because the Garou suck at getting along, but with the signs of the Apocalypse at hand, the voices for a unified front are starting to win out over the ones that want to keep fighting the same multi-generational feuds. The question is whether the Garou can unify fast enough, and sufficiently to cope with what's about to happen or not. And even if they can, how much of whatever they can do that will count as a lasting victory is still questionable.

      It's far less, "all is lost because we're constantly at each others' throats," and more, "all will be lost if we don't stop going at each others' throats, and even after we fix that we don't know if we'll do it in time."

      •There doesn't seem to be any "personal horror" in this game, as you have complete control of your character except for a frenzy, and unlike in VtM, frenzying isn't necessarily a bad thing?
      Eh? I mean, mechanically there's not that much "personal horror" in any of the WoD games. There is however plenty of potential for it even if most WtA games tend to go for the action horror angle instead. Keep in mind that all werewolves give off an aura of "I'm a dangerous nasty angry big bad wolf" that makes interacting with normal people difficult for all but the lowest Rage characters, becoming a werewolf is horrifically traumatic (that majority of Homids are stated to have killed someone during their First Change, Metis are deformed outcasts, and Lupus suddenly have a human level mind shoved into their formerly wolf-like brains out of the blue without any build up to prepare them for the on rush of experience that represents) and the only people that know what's happening to you are also trying to induct you into a warrior cult. There's a lot of room for personal horror if you want to explore it.

      Frenzying in WtA is never a good thing, it's just sometimes better than the other options. As well, if you're at temporary or permanent Rage of 4+, Frenzies start getting extremely dangerous unless you have a shit ton of Willpower. And Frenzies can be triggered by good things if they're too strong (notably any extremely strong emotion can overwhelm a werewolf, so getting to wrapped up in love can cause you to flip out and kill your lover... which is pretty personal horror).

      ​What is a better description of W:tA that may better capture what the game and it's setting are about?
      Part of the issue is that it's a big game that's about a lot of things. Everything you said is a perfectly valid way to play the game. It's less wrong and more narrow view of the possibilities of what you can do with it.

      Same goes for Lex's response. She's not wrong, it's just not the only thing you can do with it.

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      • #4
        The Fera are the only defenders of the biosphere and seemingly the only supernatural entities to understand enough ecology to realize that humanity is on the path to annihilate itself along with the rest of the life on Earth (including the Fera). For the Fera, it is a fight of self-preservation because they cannot exist without wild members of their animal species in existence. While the Ananasi, Corax, and Ratkin might be able to survive until humanity completely destroys the biosphere, even they would go extinct at the end of all life.

        Garou are among the fiercest defenders of humanity because they are trying to prevent humanity from committing murder-suicide with the rest of the biosphere (and, to a greater or lesser extent, so are the rest of the Fera, though their methods are different than the methods of the Garou). The Garou seek to destroy Pentex, which is trying to convert the entirety of humanity into Fomori, and to change the behaviors of the rest of corporations and governments through a mixture of education, political action, and whistleblowing (with some old fashion sabotage and violence thrown in). They do not only seek to preserve the wilderness from the Wyrm though, they also seek to beautify and preserve urban area from the Wyrm. Whether it is killing the parasites that make urban life awful (loan sharks, slum lords, white slavers, etc) or just making sure the the urban poor have access to parks, they are the only group of supernatural creatures that actually care about the fate of the downtrodden.

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        • #5
          Originally posted by atamajakki View Post
          A group of racist stereotypes band together to serve as homicidal primitivist ecoterrorists?
          Werewolf has been steadily getting rid of those (and most of them are actually ethnic/country stereotypes, since some of the most stilted ones came from European tribes) since about the time the older Silver Fangs tribebook came out and revealed that they actually have a native presence everywhere but the Americas and Antarctica. Revised and W20 did a lot more work along these lines, such as the Get of Fenris being revealed to be much more diverse and killing off the Swords of Heimdall for being racist tools, or the Silent Striders tribebook clearing up any misconceptions about the Rroma being related to them (not any more than any other group of humans), and how Pure Breed only has anything to do with werewolf tribe heritage and not human ethnicity (it needs to be renamed like how Past Lives became Ancestors, but with the modern WW... ugh, that might not just not happen, we could backslide for the first edition instead of making leaps ahead). Croatan Song, for all that it gets panned for being boring and dry, also established that the so-called Pure Lands weren't, and that the three werewolf tribes of the Americas were actually pretty occupied fighting monsters and slick-tongued corrupters looking to set up shops in the major cities on the continent.

          As for the second part? Context is everything. A notable minority of werewolves are actually wolfweres, were never brought up as humans, and don't share human sensibilities, even considering that being part-spirit means that they still aren't actually human. They also have a close kinship with beings that aren't even material or made of flesh and often want to see their domains revitalized. Which is difficult when two tribes see less inherently wrong with modern life, and have agreements with spirits of technology and modern materials that they, likewise, don't want to endanger. Because spirit is everything; unlike in Exalted, in Werewolf, the god is the river. Also, they have a history of having hunted humans in ancient times, and the Mokole actually shaped humans from early primates, since they were left over from an earlier struggle with similar character... and arguably fucked up even worse than the Garou have, per Shattered Dreams.

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          • #6
            Originally posted by Schwann145 View Post
            As it relates to the overall "World of Darkness" anyway.

            ​•So you are this ultimate manifestation of mother nature's primal fury made flesh... in order to combat spiritual evils that, more often than not, don't require fang and claw to defeat.
            ​•The overall villain of the setting is the slow (or not so slow?) and subtle (or not so subtle?) corruption of the natural world, but you can't really do anything about it because the tribes just can't quit in-fighting.
            ​•There doesn't seem to be any "personal horror" in this game, as you have complete control of your character except for a frenzy, and unlike in VtM, frenzying isn't necessarily a bad thing?

            ​I know my breakdown is probably wrong (I've never had a chance to actually play in a game), but from other people's stories and such, that's the impression I got.

            ​What is a better description of W:tA that may better capture what the game and it's setting are about?
            A better description is: a bunch of hellhounds on steroids, living as new age hippies in the woods, playing Captain Planet.

            WtA has always been a silly game to be. From all the WoD games, it has always been the one I liked the least, and the one I considered the less profound of meaning, of mysticism, of substance.

            That being said, the concept of the Uratha, the Werewolves from the Forsaken game of the new world of darkness (chronicles of darkness) really got my attention. For one, it removed that captain ecology thing which always stricked me as being so silly, and second, it introduced a sense of horror that actually grasped my attention. I'll look into it further

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            • #7
              Ofc WtA players will try to crucify me for saying this, but it is my opnion nevertheless, I don't care if the players of werewolf think their fanatical love of the game, I won't change my mind just because people get mad for being spoken about. It's a silly and pointless game, no one needs to agree with me, but you can all deal with the fact that that's how many people see this game.

              Ideal if you like shallow 2 dimensions heroes/villains, and if you love games based on random mayhem and violence and little actual roleplay, social interactions or intelectual pursuit.

              Fomori and other Wyrm-crap are utter villains, Garou and Fera are the heroes. Very black and white. Have fun.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Karlgust View Post
                Ofc WtA players will try to crucify me for saying this, but it is my opnion nevertheless, I don't care if the players of werewolf think their fanatical love of the game, I won't change my mind just because people get mad for being spoken about. It's a silly and pointless game, no one needs to agree with me, but you can all deal with the fact that that's how many people see this game.

                Ideal if you like shallow 2 dimensions heroes/villains, and if you love games based on random mayhem and violence and little actual roleplay, social interactions or intelectual pursuit.

                Fomori and other Wyrm-crap are utter villains, Garou and Fera are the heroes. Very black and white. Have fun.

                You are entitled to your own opinion, but is there any reason why you'd come into the forum of a game you dislike and shit all over it? There are some White Wolf games I dislike, so I just don't visit those forums.

                But, back on topic.

                While on the surface, Werewolf is a violent, black and white game, they are a few aspects of the game I find fascinating:

                1. Kinfolk. Family has always been a central component to any character I create. Werewolf has family built into the system. Unable to interact well with Humanity, the Garou desperately need their Kinfolk. Vampires can just Ghoul another daytime assistant, but a Garou can't replace their younger brother. Kinfolk provide a much needed connection to Humanity/Lupine side that can not be easily replaced.

                2. Religion. I like to Role Play to explore religious concepts, but find that people get offended if I use real life religions to do this. Gaia allows me to explore the religious topics such as faith, fanaticism, and doubt, without stepping on the toes of other player's religious beliefs.

                3. Politics. I like Werewolf politics better than Vampire politics because Garou argue about how to go about saving the Gaia from the Wyrm rather than backstab their fellow sept members due to self interest.

                4. Alien Viewpoints. In D&D, I rarely play a human character despite the mechanical advantages. I always play a different race. In Werewolf, I can play a Wolf trying to adapt to an alien world.

                6. Eco-Terrorism. I'll admit. I like the Captain Planet aspect of the game. Sometimes you want to play a game where you know who the enemy is. I like going out and just killing the bastards that fuck up the world.

                7. Glasswalkers. I love this splat so much. Forward thinking, hacker Werewolves with Guns? Yes, please. The only White Wolf splat I love more is Sidereals from Exalted.


                Are you ready to rage? Discover if you are Brave Enough to fight for the soul of the world.

                The Werewolf: the Apocalypse Quest updates on Mondays. All are welcome to vote.

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                • #9
                  Well, as they say, 'haters have to hate.' I think the problem that most people have with WtA is that the Garou (and Fera) are the closest thing to actual heroes in cWoD, despite their many flaws. They actually care, as a group, about the fate of the Earth and the fate of living entities (including living humans).

                  What other group is motivated to care about the exploitation amd victimization of billions of humans? Every form of exploitation and victimization creates new Fomori, new Banes, and feeds the Wyrm. To make them out to be psychopaths is inaccurate and, quite frankly, misleading. The majority of Garou do not have high enough levels of Rage (6+) to be dangerous (Kindred are much more likely to frenzy than a Rage 5- Garou).
                  Last edited by Aya Tari; 02-19-2017, 06:28 PM.

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Aya Tari View Post
                    Well, as they say, 'haters have to hate.' I think the problem that most people have with WtA is that the Garou (and Fera) are the closest thing to actual heroes in cWoD, despite their many flaws. They actually care, as a group, about the fate of the Earth and the fate of living entities (including living humans).
                    Since Garou are closer to "heroes" than other WoD gamelines, their flaws stand out more.


                    Are you ready to rage? Discover if you are Brave Enough to fight for the soul of the world.

                    The Werewolf: the Apocalypse Quest updates on Mondays. All are welcome to vote.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      To add to the "ecoterrorism" point not being exclusively a bad thing: One of the things the game has highlighted relatively well over the years is that the environment is danger and stopping it isn't simple. "Captain Planet" play can be both cathartic for those of us frustrated with it and looking for some escapist fantasy, as well as a spring board for the much more complicated issue that it isn't actually working. The Garou can't just kill pollution. Curbstomping some Pentex subsidiary's operation just means you stopped the worst of the worst polluters, and dozens of minor operations done by normal hard working people that aren't tools of a Wyrm cult are still doing what they do. One of the books even once had a side bar pointing out that they had tried to make a Pentex based oil company more hyperbolic but they couldn't come up with a way to do so because in reality it was already that stupidly bad.

                      It's a pretty deep thing to consider. That a gaming book about a hyperbolic evil corporation that's purposefully doing all the horrible shit that most major corporations do out of willful ignorance in the name of profit had to throw up its hands and say, "we couldn't come up with anything worse than this, what they're doing here is actually what real companies do."

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                      • #12
                        Seems like a few folks in this thread could use a reminder of rule 3.

                        3. Respect other people’s preferences. It’s fine to like or dislike certain aspects of our products, but not okay to get into hostile arguments over, for example, preferred editions of a game. This applies equally to non-Onyx or non-White Wolf games.
                        If you don't like Werewolf the Apocalypse, that's fine, but don't come into a thread like this just to rant about what a terrible game you think it is. If you can't express your preferences respectfully, keep them to yourself.


                        Onyx Path Forum Moderator

                        My mod voice is red. I use it so you know when I'm speaking in an official capacity, not as an indication of tone.

                        Going by Willow now, or Wil for short. She/Her/Hers.

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Aya Tari View Post
                          Well, as they say, 'haters have to hate.' I think the problem that most people have with WtA is that the Garou (and Fera) are the closest thing to actual heroes in cWoD, despite their many flaws. They actually care, as a group, about the fate of the Earth and the fate of living entities (including living humans).

                          What other group is motivated to care about the exploitation amd victimization of billions of humans? Every form of exploitation and victimization creates new Fomori, new Banes, and feeds the Wyrm. To make them out to be psychopaths is inaccurate and, quite frankly, misleading. The majority of Garou do not have high enough levels of Rage (6+) to be dangerous (Kindred are much more likely to frenzy than a Rage 5- Garou).
                          Fera don't care about humanity. They only care about their spiritual "ogus boogus" that they need to keep in balance to order to keep the world in their divinely perfect order. They are not heroes, they are fanatical zealots, that's all. You'll find good heores and great villains amongst many Mages/Technocrats and changellings, and even wraiths, but werewolves are NOT heroes, they are just mere brutes. The ones that could be portrayed as heroes would be the Children of Gaia and the Keepers of the Inner Light (I think that's the name in english, I dunno), but the others are all a bunch of fascist assholes

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                          • #14
                            I at least respect the red talons - they are psychopats, sure, but at least they don't hide their true nature.

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by wonderandawe View Post

                              Since Garou are closer to "heroes" than other WoD gamelines, their flaws stand out more.
                              Which is what makes them compelling heroes. They are not Superman, they are Batman (Dark Knight). They are not the Avengers, they are the X-Men. While they are not anti-heroes, they are dark and tragic heroes who fight a seemingly hopeless fight not because they expect gratitude or reward, but because no one else is willing to step up to the plate as a group to save the world.

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