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No, you really ARE just a monster! (Reflection on the nature of Lore)

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  • #76
    Yes, the Demon Lore is ambiguous, but the Werewolf Lore is not. Since this is the Werewolf forum, the objective nature of Werewolf Lore is respected (in Demon games, feel free to toss Werewolf Lore aside). In WtA, Demons are just deluded Wyrm spirits with pretentious of greatness that were released from their ancient prison by the events of the Week of Nightmares.

    While the exact WtA interpretation of their nature of Demons is up for debate, my theory is as follows. Demons were High Umbra spirits corrupted by the Wyrm. When their corruption reached a certain point, they rebelled against the Godhead of the High Umbra. When they were defeated by the loyalists of the Godhead of the High Umbra, they were cast into Oblivion, where they were consumed and digested by Grandmother before She shat their corrupted remains into the Abyss, Her personal toilet for anything that Her Oblivion could not destroy (the nutrition provided to Her by digesting the proto-Demons allowed Her to create the True Malfeans). When Grandmother moved, She weakened the seals that She maintained on the Abyss, allowing the weakest Demons to escape and do the work of the Wyrm by possessing humans and spreading their corruption through the world.

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    • #77
      Like I said, in a pure WtA game I keep them as being accurate but like to have ambiguity as to whether they are fully right or if they have twisted it in some way to justify their own agendas.

      Out of curiosity though, in a mixed game do you think that they should still be treated objectively accurate about their beliefs? Because say for example Mage without the consensus is just as much of a gut as Werewolf without its Lore.

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      • #78
        Originally posted by 11twiggins
        Time of Thin Blood literally endorses "Gehenna is a lie" as one of the possible outcomes of the End Times. It was all a myth, a move in the Jyhad, there's no end of days coming for Vampires, Elders just wake up occasionally but there's no coordination to it.
        Yes, but the Jyhad still exist there, and vampires are still gothic monsters ploting in an endless war of the ages...if Garou are created by Lilith to kill vampires, and she subverted all the Spirit World to do that, then the war against the Apocalypse takes a step back to the Jyhad, the Wyrm it's not the main antagonist, but a pawn of Lilith. More so, the Garou stop to be sacred spiritual warriors to become environmentalists, which it's no small change of theme, even if being green if good.

        In the same vein, I'm propossing to make the Jyhad a non issue to vampires. Not merely to take away the Antediluvians who aren't important to the players until the Gehena, but to take the main reason to fight. Just as in Mage the main reason to fight it's to control or protect Reality itself, fighting for the souls of humanity, in vampire the main reason to fight it's the promisse of power and the paranoia of the world of the undead (impersonated in the Elders, with their milenia old schemes)

        You can still fight to gain power as a vampire if the milenia old schemes don't exist. The Sabbat exists the Camarilla exists, they're not terribly powerful, but there are reasons to be involved in the conflict, mainly that you were born in it. And you can still advance your vampiric power and status, just not to the godly level of 7 gen and above (which are levels that most players never see anyway).

        But vampire losses it's apeal without the milenia old schemes, doesn't it? . Same goes for Mage if mages can't do shit to change the world in which we live, because what science knows it's and will always be true.

        What you're suggesting is kind of... shit. Like there's a difference between "setting exists as presented superficially but underneath something different is happening" and "setting exists as presented except when you uncover everything there's nothing there". Replacing Gaia with Lilith is being falsely made equivalent to replacing all of the history of Vampire before, say 1000 AD with absolutely nothing.
        To my undertanding "setting exists as presented except when you uncover everything there's nothing there" and "setting exists as presented superficially but underneath something different is happening" are very similar in the sense that if "something different from the setting it's all that it's happening" then "nothing of the setting it's there". You've just killed the setting, and replaced it with other thing.
        My conclusions are as follows, and I don't think they're controversial ideas at all:

        1: STs should be open to tweaking, altering or completely subverting the Lore as presented

        2: Players should be given the space to be skeptical of the Lore both IC and OOC

        3: Things don't need to be true to be important

        I agree with the first 2, but not with the 3.

        Truth it's important as long as truth it's meaningfull to the choices players make in the game. If the piece of lore you're "debunking" it's distant, then it doesn't matter because it will hardly enter in play, and only as a wierd mystery, but if it's close and personal it can disrupt the spirit of the game.

        Now, disrupting the spirit can be good...some people like to play Vampions, some people might enjoy a Vampire more dawn to earth like the one I propossed, without low generations and milenia old plots...if your players agree, change it's good. This generates a conundrum, because if you want the big reveal to be a surprise you need to lie to the players(they think they're about to fight the Wyrm as Gaia's chosen, and they're going to play Lupine: the Lilim).

        Now, let me ask you this:

        Why someone that defends that truth isn't important needs to defend his point of view as a "valid way to use/understad the lore" instead of a drastic deviation the lore, an interprtation instead of a house rule? Why do you need your new lore to be something diffrent from changing the rules?

        Why do you need OOC to be universaly relative in order to play the game the way you want?

        I think that the answers would have been much less "negative" if you had presented your proposition as a brainstorm to study what happens if you change the setting in a certain way, instead of the best way to use the lore that makes perfect sense within the setting. Because the latter it's calling to people that may think that:
        A. It isn't the best way to use the lore
        B. It doesn't make perfect sense within the setting
        C. You're ignoring the lore.
        Last edited by Aleph; 02-24-2017, 01:22 PM.

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        • #79
          Originally posted by stanlemon View Post
          Out of curiosity though, in a mixed game do you think that they should still be treated objectively accurate about their beliefs? Because say for example Mage without the consensus is just as much of a gut as Werewolf without its Lore.
          In a mixed game you have to decide how you want the cosmologies and lore to line up. They just kind of don't without changes. Usually the ST is tasked with choosing one game as the"base" and building off of that.

          Unless the game gets too the upper levels of power, the bulk of the conflicts can be kept hidden and never addressed.


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          • #80
            Yup.

            The problem of truth, obviously, only comes arround if something it's revealed to be, indeed, true beyond reasonable doubt.

            Incidentally, this it's a perfect ocation to ilustrate the diffeence between IOC and OOC. IOC a Mage can say whatever he wants, no Garou (nor Werewolf player) it's going to buy it (or maybe he does, Garou aren't a hive mind). The Big Book of Crossover that explains who it's trully the Big bad of WoD and which faction trully Rules the Night, on the other hand, it's going to upset a lot of fans because it's the Word of God. Personally, I think you could do a Small Book of Crossover that's just rules, without revealing anything, that would still be of great use to fans of crossover, but well...

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            • #81
              I think that it also depends on the Mage. The members of the Mythic Traditions (Cult of Ecstasy, Dreamspeakers, Order of Hermes, and Verbena) will shrug at the idea of the WtA Lore being the objective truth because it does not interfere with their way of doing True Magick (and it might actually address some of their questions about the nature of Reality). The members of the Mythic Traditions are not focused on the idea of subjective reality because the Mythic Traditions tend to be built around mystical rules and prohibitions that tend to align well with the WtA Lore. The Mages that have the most problems with the WtA Lore are the members of the Technocratic Union because their entire purpose is the twist the Consensus to the point where they can run reality without the interference of supernatural creatures.

              In a mixed Mage-Werewolf game, it probably works best if the Mage Lore is a subjective interpretation of Werewolf Lore (otherwise the Fera just end up being fuzzy superheroes with anger issues and silver allergies). The Technocrats are the unwitting servants of the Weaver, manipulated by the Weaver to strengthen the Pattern by destroying the creativity and magic of Human existence. The Nephandi are the willing servants of the Wyrm, even if they claim to serve independent evils, because the inversion of their Avatars is caused by Walking the Spiral. The Marauders have been infected with the madness of the Wyld, and their madness compels them to attack the agents of the Wyrm and the agents of the Weaver. The Traditions and the Crafts might be potential allies of the Fera and Gaia, but they might also be unwitting servants of the Weaver, the Wyld, or the Wyrm.

              The battles that Mages fight then tend to be as cosmic as the battles that the Fera fight, the Mages just are unwilling to admit that they could endanger all of existence if they fail. Without an instinctive purpose, Mages are distrusted by the Fera because they are the free agents of the cosmic conflict, and are just as likely to sign on with the enemies of the Fera as they would with the Fera. Mages can also cause problems for the Fera by helping the Weaver by destroying the creativity and magic of Human existence through their own blindness or by helping the Wyrm by spreading corruption and misery through their greed and pride. It also does not help that Mages occasionally attack Caerns in order to drain them of their magical power.

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              • #82
                Originally posted by Aleph View Post
                Personally, I think you could do a Small Book of Crossover that's just rules, without revealing anything, that would still be of great use to fans of crossover, but well...
                Unfortunately, I don't know that I would have high hopes for this theoretical book. The systems for crossovers that have been published so far are generally rubbish (the comparing power levels rule for example almost always favors Vampires who steamroll all of the other splats nonsensically). I wholly support the idea though of completely leaving fluff out of it and focusing on rules alone.


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                • #83
                  That would be interesting. I think that it would be good to have a form of universal countermagic rule. I think that just giving major supernatural creatures the two types of Counterspells and the two types of Unweaving for free from Sorcerer: Revised (p. 63) would be adequate for a universal countermagic rule.

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                  • #84
                    Originally posted by Aya Tari View Post
                    Yes, the Demon Lore is ambiguous, but the Werewolf Lore is not. Since this is the Werewolf forum, the objective nature of Werewolf Lore is respected (in Demon games, feel free to toss Werewolf Lore aside).
                    That's good to know that this is how you think Aya. Next time that you question something about Mage, like when you tryed to IMPOSE rules from Changelling the Dreaming over the Mage scenario, I'll let you remember of this.

                    But I do have to agree with the WtA players here; it's not that the Garou char will become useless if you make their Lore utterly wrong; but it's not Werewolf: the Apocalypse game anymore. You could play "Werewolf: the Lie" or "Werewolf: the deception" if you'd like, but it wouldn't be THE APOCALIPSE any more.

                    That doesn't mean that EVERY single piece of the lore MUST be the absolutely ultimate truth; the BSD could have some redeemable qualities or some utter reasons beyond just "evil Nefandi/Baali-like" sort of fellows, the whole thing about "the world is fucked up! Run to the hills, it's over man, it's over!" could be just an exaggeration, and similar things. But, Gaia must be a thing, even if it's not EXACTLY what the Garou think it is (maybe Gaia is utterly evil? Maybe the Weaver could make a world FAR BETTER if given the chance? Maybe the one imprisoning the Wyrm is Gaia, not the Weaver, and if you could release the Wyrm from Gaia, all would be well again?)

                    However, just DESTROYING the lore of WtA (like saying "sorry guys, there is no Gaia, it was all a Lucifer's plot all along) is totally undoing the game.

                    Like others have said, it would be like Mage without the Consensus, or like Vampire without the Jyhad, or Changelling without the Banality, or Wraith without the Oblivion

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                    • #85
                      Originally posted by Aya Tari View Post
                      I think that it also depends on the Mage. The members of the Mythic Traditions (Cult of Ecstasy, Dreamspeakers, Order of Hermes, and Verbena) will shrug at the idea of the WtA Lore being the objective truth because it does not interfere with their way of doing True Magick (and it might actually address some of their questions about the nature of Reality). The members of the Mythic Traditions are not focused on the idea of subjective reality because the Mythic Traditions tend to be built around mystical rules and prohibitions that tend to align well with the WtA Lore. The Mages that have the most problems with the WtA Lore are the members of the Technocratic Union because their entire purpose is the twist the Consensus to the point where they can run reality without the interference of supernatural creatures.

                      In a mixed Mage-Werewolf game, it probably works best if the Mage Lore is a subjective interpretation of Werewolf Lore (otherwise the Fera just end up being fuzzy superheroes with anger issues and silver allergies). The Technocrats are the unwitting servants of the Weaver, manipulated by the Weaver to strengthen the Pattern by destroying the creativity and magic of Human existence. The Nephandi are the willing servants of the Wyrm, even if they claim to serve independent evils, because the inversion of their Avatars is caused by Walking the Spiral. The Marauders have been infected with the madness of the Wyld, and their madness compels them to attack the agents of the Wyrm and the agents of the Weaver. The Traditions and the Crafts might be potential allies of the Fera and Gaia, but they might also be unwitting servants of the Weaver, the Wyld, or the Wyrm.

                      The battles that Mages fight then tend to be as cosmic as the battles that the Fera fight, the Mages just are unwilling to admit that they could endanger all of existence if they fail. Without an instinctive purpose, Mages are distrusted by the Fera because they are the free agents of the cosmic conflict, and are just as likely to sign on with the enemies of the Fera as they would with the Fera. Mages can also cause problems for the Fera by helping the Weaver by destroying the creativity and magic of Human existence through their own blindness or by helping the Wyrm by spreading corruption and misery through their greed and pride. It also does not help that Mages occasionally attack Caerns in order to drain them of their magical power.
                      Wow, that was quickly.

                      This is the point were I remember YOU that WtA lore doesn't mean ANYTHING in a Mage game.

                      So, no, no objective reality of WtA for a Mage game (just remember your very direct approach of how the lore of Demon doesn't apply for WtA, and please use the same approach when refering to Mage)

                      And, it's funny how you managed to destroy the entire scenario of Mage just to preserve your prefered game of WtA.

                      If you wanna a good way to have a compromise that could work well in a crossed mage-werewolf game, take a look at the discussions of Consensus on here http://forum.theonyxpath.com/forum/m...-reality/page4

                      But, once again, for a pure WtA game, just take the lore as written
                      Last edited by Karlgust; 02-25-2017, 01:35 PM.

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                      • #86
                        This is a WtA forum, so WtA Lore is going to take precedence over MtAc Lore in a Mage-Werewolf crossover. If anyone wants to discuss a Werewolf-Mage crossover where MtAc Lore takes precedence over WtA Lore, I would suggest that they post a thread on the Mage forum.

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                        • #87
                          Originally posted by Aya Tari View Post
                          This is a WtA forum, so WtA Lore is going to take precedence over MtAc Lore in a Mage-Werewolf crossover. If anyone wants to discuss a Werewolf-Mage crossover where MtAc Lore takes precedence over WtA Lore, I would suggest that they post a thread on the Mage forum.
                          Sure. I do hope you remember those exact words when you post on the Mage forum too.

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