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  • Garou and Vampires

    I checked W20 corebook and for me, it's disappointing. Why Garou still hate vampires? I mean, vampires definitelyare not lovely creatures in the world... but neither Garou. And now, this dump hate seems to be so hypocritical and fanatic. The only adequate reason for Gaou to hate vampires is Wyrm smell - and why not to retcon all this 'all vampires smell like Wyrm'? Why both factions couldn't have some kind of passive-histile neutrality.

  • #2
    Originally posted by Lashet View Post
    I checked W20 corebook and for me, it's disappointing. Why Garou still hate vampires? I mean, vampires definitelyare not lovely creatures in the world... but neither Garou. And now, this dump hate seems to be so hypocritical and fanatic. The only adequate reason for Gaou to hate vampires is Wyrm smell - and why not to retcon all this 'all vampires smell like Wyrm'? Why both factions couldn't have some kind of passive-histile neutrality.
    All Vampires of Humanity 6 or lower stink of the Wyrm. This means that Changing Breeds interact with the worst of Vampires, since the good Vampires are kind of invisible to them almost. I doubt most Werewolves even know that high Humanity Vampires exist.

    Furthermore, Vampires have Presence and Dominate. Growing up, pups will be told to not even speak to Vampires, one look and you'll be their slave. They have plenty of reason to hate and fear them, and visa versa.

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    • #3
      Nosferatu and Bone Gnawers have a working relationship.


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      • #4
        Furthermore, Vampires have Presence and Dominate
        Yep
        I doubt most Werewolves even know that high Humanity Vampires exist.
        Although they would most probably kill even high-Humanity vampires, if they would know that this is vampire.
        It's anyway sounds. Why vampire must smell like Wyrm, first of all? It doesn't add anything to crossover. Here they sound kind of supernatural Nazi:
        For millennia, werewolves and vampires have fought
        bloody wars throughout the world. Werewolves typically
        feel that the only good Leech is a Leech that’s been burned
        to ashes and scattered to the four winds. Whereas most
        Garou prefer the open wilderness, vampires are creatures
        of the city. They survive and thrive on human blood, and
        they could not survive in the wilderness even without the
        werewolves’ crushing their every intrusion. Many Garou
        blame vampires for the unchecked invasion of urban centers
        deeper and deeper into previously untamed wilderness.

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        • #5
          Originally posted by Lashet View Post
          Yep
          Although they would most probably kill even high-Humanity vampires, if they would know that this is vampire.
          It's anyway sounds. Why vampire must smell like Wyrm, first of all? It doesn't add anything to crossover. Here they sound kind of supernatural Nazi:
          Vampires in Golconda are left alone by Werewolves and the like. And some Garou are on "you don't kill me I don't kill you" terms with Werewolves.

          Vampires smell like the Wyrm because they are creatures perpetually caught in their moment of death. That's what Vampires are, scientifically and spiritually. They died, but their death is extended to infinity and they are held in that stasis forever. This makes them simultaneously wracked with Weaver and Wyrmish influence. The Garou just smell the stench of the Wyrm.

          The mutual antagonism exists for a tonne of reasons, and then feeds off of itself. Reconciling the two groups is nearly impossible. Keep in mind that the interests of Vampires line up quite neatly with Pentex and the Technocracy in some cases. If a Ventrue Prince is a billionaire, a good portion of his portfolio is tied to Pentex or the Syndicate (whether they know it or not; these businesses are just the best performers on paper and will be something the Ventrue, Lasombra and Giovanni (among others) buy into), and that makes them complicit in the war on the Garou Nation and other Fera. And Vampires are the masters of cities and governments, and therefore Werewolves can easily blame them for pollution and polluting policies.

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          • #6
            Camarilla Kindred can develop cordial working relationships with Garou if they work through the proper intermediaries, but Garou and Kindred are never going to become allies unless there is a bigger threat to both groups than each other.

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            • #7
              Originally posted by 11twiggins View Post

              Vampires in Golconda are left alone by Werewolves and the like. And some Garou are on "you don't kill me I don't kill you" terms with Werewolves.

              Vampires smell like the Wyrm because they are creatures perpetually caught in their moment of death. That's what Vampires are, scientifically and spiritually. They died, but their death is extended to infinity and they are held in that stasis forever. This makes them simultaneously wracked with Weaver and Wyrmish influence. The Garou just smell the stench of the Wyrm.

              The mutual antagonism exists for a tonne of reasons, and then feeds off of itself. Reconciling the two groups is nearly impossible. Keep in mind that the interests of Vampires line up quite neatly with Pentex and the Technocracy in some cases. If a Ventrue Prince is a billionaire, a good portion of his portfolio is tied to Pentex or the Syndicate (whether they know it or not; these businesses are just the best performers on paper and will be something the Ventrue, Lasombra and Giovanni (among others) buy into), and that makes them complicit in the war on the Garou Nation and other Fera. And Vampires are the masters of cities and governments, and therefore Werewolves can easily blame them for pollution and polluting policies.
              I know all of this, I just had hope that this could be retcon in W20. Because I saw enough hate to werewolves from VtM-fans and I think such scheme just make Garou seems like scum.

              Nope, CoD is way better for me - werewolves at least aren't creeps here.

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              • #8
                Because vampires are literally un-natural. They are outside the natural cycle of life and death (and maybe rebirth), things that died and yet still walk around mimicking life, having to feed on the blood of the living to maintain this charade. From the Garou point of view, vampires Should Not Be, and their existence is as much proof of how spiritually broken this world is as that of fomori or the Black Spiral Dancers.

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by 11twiggins View Post
                  Growing up, pups will be told to not even speak to Vampires, one look and you'll be their slave.
                  I thought the majority of werewolves were raised by their human parent(s) and only educated about the Garou religion/philosophy and the existence of the supernatural overall once they start shifting forms upon physical maturity (assuming that werewolves are able to keep tabs on them well enough to find them at that point).

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                  • #10
                    wondered for a while... can you see any reason for a Garou to object to a Vampire their allied with Dialbrizing Harold Zettler... hes got REALLY potent blood.


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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Matt the Bruins fan View Post

                      I thought the majority of werewolves were raised by their human parent(s) and only educated about the Garou religion/philosophy and the existence of the supernatural overall once they start shifting forms upon physical maturity (assuming that werewolves are able to keep tabs on them well enough to find them at that point).
                      I was under the impression that there were three breeds, Metis, Human-born and Wolf-born, and that the first and last are quite often raised by Garou, while the human-born ones are introduced after the first change (gotta get that alternative sexuality whisking you off on a journey of self-discovery and helping you find your true family metaphor in there after all... Werewolf feels very gay tbh, the werebear crinos form has abs for some reason while the W20 Ananasi look like they were made for Female Gayze and there's a big homoerotic charge, and let's not even get into yiffing...) but to be fair I've read Changing Breeds but not the Core W20 so I'm missing some key knowledge lol.

                      Regardless, Vampire 101 is "don't trust them, they'll use their supernatural powers to seem reasonable and friendly when they aren't", and once that seed is planted no good interactions will happen.

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Prince of the Night View Post
                        wondered for a while... can you see any reason for a Garou to object to a Vampire their allied with Dialbrizing Harold Zettler... hes got REALLY potent blood.
                        "This is a good leech who leeches on other leeches to get more powerful. Every time he does it he reeks even more of the Wyrm. I am okay with this." - Very, Very Few Garou, If Any.

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Lashet View Post
                          I know all of this, I just had hope that this could be retcon in W20. Because I saw enough hate to werewolves from VtM-fans and I think such scheme just make Garou seems like scum.

                          Nope, CoD is way better for me - werewolves at least aren't creeps here.
                          Of course garou are scum!? What the hell......you guys realize this is a game about monsters

                          No direct offense to you , but I remember when people played these games with the right tone......

                          Who the fuck wants to play all the monsters have a party and get along.....garou can be reasoned with vampires are just trying to make a living etc.....what utter poofiness......

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Lashet View Post
                            I know all of this, I just had hope that this could be retcon in W20. Because I saw enough hate to werewolves from VtM-fans and I think such scheme just make Garou seems like scum.

                            Nope, CoD is way better for me - werewolves at least aren't creeps here.
                            How is not liking vampires being a creep? Even other vampires don't like vampires, and that's something you see intensified even further in the CoD with its predator's taint roll. In Forsaken 2nd, it might boil down to individual choice in prey, but if a pack does pick out a vampire as the target of a hunt, they aren't likely to waver or grant mercy.

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                            • #15
                              For what it's worth it bothers me when werewolf players get all uppity and whine about werewolf being too harsh....these are half animal savages, xenophobic beasts......every time I see stuff about everybody playing nice it makes me sick.........

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