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  • #46
    Originally posted by wonderandawe View Post


    I think White Wolf may have started the trend. It's one of the reasons why they sued Underworld.
    They'd honestly have had a better case if they'd tried suing the people who made the first Blade movie, IMO.

    As for the vampires vs werewolves trope, it goes back as far as an episode of "The Real Ghostbusters" back in the 1980s, and before that there are odds and ends such as the Spanish horror films Los Monstrous del Terror/Dracula vs Frankenstein (1970) and La Noche de Walpurgis/Werewolf Shadow/Werewolf vs The Vampire Woman (1971). I suspect it's just a natural result of things to want to see two famous monsters fight. The same way Godzilla vs King Kong or Freddy vs Jason came about.

    In the World of Darkness, it always struck me as the natural outgrowth of both societies. The Kindred are a perfect storm of arrogance and paranoia that only a bunch of immortals who still run the risk of violent death can be, while the Garou are a dying breed of religious crusaders with the pure zealotry that can only come with having objective proof that your beliefs are true, and both are apex predators who instinctively want to be in charge of whatever territory they're standing on at the moment.
    (This doesn't even get into something like the Silent Striders, who have a historical reason for hating the undead on top of all that.)



    What is tolerance? It is the consequence of humanity. We are all formed of frailty and error; let us pardon reciprocally each other's folly. That is the first law of nature.
    Voltaire, "Tolerance" (1764)

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    • #47
      There was also Frankenstein meets the Wolfman, as well as a Laural & Hardy version.

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      • #48
        Originally posted by No One of Consequence View Post

        They'd honestly have had a better case if they'd tried suing the people who made the first Blade movie, IMO.
        Blade predates WW by 18 years.

        Did you read the Underworld filing? Underworld had over 100 listed similarities to a novel published by WW. Some of them were preposterous, but some were actually kind of suspicious. The sort of thing where WW sues Sony just in case and Sony gives WW fans a bunch of free passes to the film to mollify them.

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        • #49
          Though, as a WtA fan, I thought that Underworld was just prejudiced against Garou. This is the WtA forum, so 'Lupine' is just a racial slur thrown around by Kindred who lack a proper appreciation of Garou culture, usually right before an irritated Garou rips their heads off and stuffs their heads another Kindred's rear end. I do wonder what a proper treatment of the Garou would look like in the movies (I imagine that the special effects budget would be quite large).

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          • #50
            Originally posted by etherial View Post
            Blade predates WW by 18 years.

            Did you read the Underworld filing? Underworld had over 100 listed similarities to a novel published by WW. Some of them were preposterous, but some were actually kind of suspicious. The sort of thing where WW sues Sony just in case and Sony gives WW fans a bunch of free passes to the film to mollify them.
            The character of Blade predates WW, not the film. Blade as introduced in Marvel's Tomb of Dracula (of which I've read the entire run) originated on the idea of "what if Shaft was a vampire hunter" and grew from there. The film on the other hand, borrowed a bit from Vampire, especially in it's inclusion of vampire "houses/tribes", one of which was pretty much the Assamites with an ethnicity swap.

            And yes, I read the entirety of the filing back when it was first made. I've also discussed it with several people who made depositions for the case, and have heard accounts of the company's rather weird involvement with Hollywood starting with the Kindred the Embraced show and why this probably doomed the suit from the beginning. While they may have had a better case against the makers of Blade, odds are that any copyright lawsuit against any film maker would've failed.



            What is tolerance? It is the consequence of humanity. We are all formed of frailty and error; let us pardon reciprocally each other's folly. That is the first law of nature.
            Voltaire, "Tolerance" (1764)

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            • #51
              Hi!

              This "Vampire and Werewolves are eternal enemies" comes mostly from WW and incredibly bad horror movies, but what I find even more annoying was WW making the the Werewolves super-warriors in WtA! Because this runs counter to almost all old lore. While the werewolves were devastating agianst anything mortal, against other supernaturals they were not that good. There is nothing wrong to add to the lore, but WtA pushed the envelope on counter to anything.
              Vampires and Werewolves rarely popped up in the same stories and if, then the Lupines were either among the Vampire forces "foot soldiers" or when they went against each other, Night´s Dark Masters won most of the time. Only very seldom the Werewolves won and then normally only with a lot of outside help.

              Among the authors of WtA seems to be a number of moon-addicts and guys with a serious hard-on for the Werewolf girls, because anybody knowing a bit about the legends can only shake the head about the OP hack´n slay concoction WtA is. The cranked up Damage soaking is way beyond anything shown in the legends, a ton of the gifts and rites are far more out than a number of weird stuff VtM got. In the Vampire legends, strange powers are not unusual, but Werewolf legends have fewer strange powers, esp on the spiritual side! Werewolves are much more IQ- addling bloodlust on legs than the Vampires are, even in the old legends.
              Adding to the problem is a subset of WtA players who even go more out there when interpreting rules. WtA is already OP by any kind of legend, but their claims what the Werwolves are supposedly capable of is not even written in these rules, neither intended. That is one reason why many Vampire players, esp those knowing old legends, are not too keen on WtA.
              Last edited by Günther; 05-06-2017, 03:05 PM.

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              • #52
                How so? In many cultures, werewolves were evil sorcerers, mystical shamans, savage warriors, or just another type of vampire.

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                • #53
                  I see no issue with soaking agg...the resiliance is not too unfounded in werewolf lore. Some of the legends put a big emphasis on the need for silver or fire. Honestly the weakest werewolves I've seen came from more recent versions (i.e. True Blood)
                  Last edited by CeltSPZ; 05-07-2017, 01:51 AM.

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                  • #54
                    Originally posted by Günther View Post
                    Hi!

                    This "Vampire and Werewolves are eternal enemies" comes mostly from WW and incredibly bad horror movies, but what I find even more annoying was WW making the the Werewolves super-warriors in WtA! Because this runs counter to almost all old lore. .
                    And yet you have no problem with Vampires as something other than unintelligent zombies who were burried wrong...

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                    • #55
                      Originally posted by Günther View Post
                      Among the authors of WtA seems to be a number of moon-addicts and guys with a serious hard-on for the Werewolf girls,
                      I knew close to a dozen Werewolf writers back during the revised period, and find this rather insulting and offensive. I would consider flagging it if I didn't believe such a thing should be reserved for more serious offenses than this sort of trite foolishness.






                      What is tolerance? It is the consequence of humanity. We are all formed of frailty and error; let us pardon reciprocally each other's folly. That is the first law of nature.
                      Voltaire, "Tolerance" (1764)

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Could a Garou and a Kindred have a romantic relationship? Sure: 'forbidden love' is a major plot device used just about everywhere.

                        Will it end well...? No it will most assuredly not. But then, 'tragic love' is also a cherished plot device.

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                        • #57
                          Originally posted by Lian View Post
                          And yet you have no problem with Vampires as something other than unintelligent zombies who were burried wrong...
                          I'd just be happy to see some of these cited "legends" be given names. Are we talking about Herodotus and the Neuri? Lycaon? Ovid's Metamorphosis? Turkic Kurtadam? Bisclavret? The Ulfhednar? Prince Vseslav of Belarus? Vlkolaks? Henry Boguet's work as a demonologist? The She Wolves of Julich? The Beast of Gevaudan? Livonian Hounds of God? Navajo skin-walkers? The Wendigo? Hatian je-rouge? P'an Hu? Red Riding Hood? Guhin? Warren Zevon? Alan Moore? What?


                          What is tolerance? It is the consequence of humanity. We are all formed of frailty and error; let us pardon reciprocally each other's folly. That is the first law of nature.
                          Voltaire, "Tolerance" (1764)

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Originally posted by Demigod Beast View Post
                            Could a Garou and a Kindred have a romantic relationship? Sure: 'forbidden love' is a major plot device used just about everywhere.

                            Will it end well...? No it will most assuredly not. But then, 'tragic love' is also a cherished plot device.
                            I'd actually put in the top five reasons to do a crossover game.

                            Also, "Pentex is moving in on our Sire's business holdings".


                            What is tolerance? It is the consequence of humanity. We are all formed of frailty and error; let us pardon reciprocally each other's folly. That is the first law of nature.
                            Voltaire, "Tolerance" (1764)

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Originally posted by No One of Consequence View Post

                              I'd just be happy to see some of these cited "legends" be given names. Are we talking about Herodotus and the Neuri? Lycaon? Ovid's Metamorphosis? Turkic Kurtadam? Bisclavret? The Ulfhednar? Prince Vseslav of Belarus? Vlkolaks? Henry Boguet's work as a demonologist? The She Wolves of Julich? The Beast of Gevaudan? Livonian Hounds of God? Navajo skin-walkers? The Wendigo? Hatian je-rouge? P'an Hu? Red Riding Hood? Guhin? Warren Zevon? Alan Moore? What?

                              Also a good point I just found the juxtiposition of the werewolves aren't enough like myths with "Vampires are super awesome lords of the Night" as hiliarious.

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                              • #60
                                Its rather obvious. Garou are Old Testament, like old school primordial Caveman Old Testament. They are hypocritical, and savage, but ultimately they are divine monsters for a reason, because if they were gone and none of the shapeshifters took their place the World ends because they are the Antibodies of the Universe. Caerns are Soul Organs of the World, when compromised the World literally lessens.

                                Vampires meanwhile exist for themselves. If ultimately they were no more, the world would in all likelyhood improve a great deal. They are the biggest criminal organization in the Universe, and stheir undead, and literally cursed, existence favors a downward spiral. While good Cainites can exist, their whole species favors rather unwholesome practices as the path of least resistance, hence the Salubri are nearly Extinct. The Children of Osiris don't sire for a reason, because Osiris realizes his state of Vampirism was an abominaiton to Ma'at, so instead he developed a Cult to teach others, the whole philosophy of its better to adopt then birth new children when their are too many children already, and in Osiris' case one vampire is too many. The Ahrimanes even hint at this, their Weakness of Sterility, hints at being an Animistic taboo, which allows them to learn Spiritus, as they become less of a parasitic Virus and a more of a contained benign tumor.

                                Garou also lump all Vampires together so Laibon, Cainites, Wan Kuei, and anything else that drinks blood, is dead and hates sunlight. And their overwhelming 10k+ history of interaction with the point towards a hostile relationship, one of the 16 Tribes even lost their Physical Homeland, and Spiritual Homeland, and connection to their ancestors because of one of the Vampire's. The Wan Xian tricked not just the Garou but all the Beast Courts, and even other divine shen, such as the Hsien.

                                So even if you really were a good nice guy vampire, its generally accepted the polite merciful thing to do would be to euthanize you. But if you go with real Politik then I would say if you are a Vampire and really want to get along, say maybe you were Kin, then do something along the lines of making a Spirit Sanctified Oath Not to sire progeny, maybe even spiritually neuter yourself, and promise to try to not contribute to Anti-Gaian wyrmish deeds. This is why in 1st gen you even had things like a Golconda Child of Osiris being known to a Stargazer Sept and accepted. If you have a place under Heaven/the Cycle then you are less like the rest of the Vampires. Thus Revised Era Path of Paradox, Blood, Humanity and Harmony/Feral Heart would be likely the most compatible with the Garou as they are really the only ones that would give themselves a place that jives with the Cycle of the World.


                                It is a time for great deeds!

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