Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

How do Proud Warriors respond to Humiliation?

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • How do Proud Warriors respond to Humiliation?

    So hypothetically, a Methesulah wakes up and tries to reclaim some site of importance to him, which is a sacred place to "the lupines", not that they care obviously. They use some combination of Presence, Dominate, Obfuscate and Blood Magic (Obfuscate to sneak in, Blood Magic to confound spiritual defenses, Presence and Dominate to get them all to leave/run) to cast out the Garou (we're coming into this assuming that some Elders have that power, that's a prerequisite to the hypothetical. I really don't want to get into an "8 Werewolves in Crinos vs. Mithras" situation, how strong a group of NPCs and one NPC are is a plot device).

    How would a group of Garou and Kinfolk respond to being kicked out of their Caern? We're assuming that something is stopping them from just attacking the Elder during the day (Ward Against Lupines isn't too hard to pull off, most Methesulah's have Dominate, Presence or some form of Blood Magic to do it themselves, and Ward Against Spirits isn't out of the question either).

    Right now I'm imagining them going into a frenzy (not Frenzy) and gathering up all of the Tribes and Packs they can find, all the spirits who will support them, tearing down the Ward and destroying the Elder in the middle of the day. What obstacles would they face? Stereotypically, would other Werewolves (I'm assuming this will vary by tribe, auspice and whatnot) be on board with helping them reclaim it, or would they look down upon them (they've been kicked out of their home and they approach with their tale between their legs).

    Is it a case of politics, pride and overcoming tribal fractures? This isn't too far off the Apocalypse/Gehenna, we're past 2000 and so would different Packs and Tribes ignore old quarrels to reclaim the site? Would they demand some sort of price, or would that be considered abhorrent?

    Assuming that Ratkin and Ananasi are hiding in the shadows, how would they feel about such events?
    Last edited by 11twiggins; 02-25-2017, 11:18 AM.

  • #2
    From a Garou game point of view:

    Losing a Caern is a tragedy to the Garou. Yet, Caerns have fallen before to the Black Spiral Dancers or have been depleted by mages. Losing to a Vampire may sting a bit more, but what can you do in these dark days?

    There will be consequences to the fall of the caern. First, it will be a renown hit to the survivors. They fucked up and lost a sacred site to Gaia. Losing a Caern may make higher status Garou perform the Rite of the Winter Wolf (ritual suicide). Younger Garou will have that follow their reputation for the rest of their lives. While the survivors will probably want to gather Garou from other septs and ride in to take the caern back, the tribal elders will disagree. They would want the survivors to go to another caern and make sure no other caerns fall. They are thinking about the good of the whole Garou nation. You can't let the reclamation of one Caern leave the other caern's defenseless. Note, if this is a Level 5 Caern, the elders may be tempted to take it back, only because most likely it was their HOME that was lost.

    From a Vampire game point of view:

    Those fuzzy bastards are going to keep coming back until they get their home back. The Lupine may be a useful tool for getting rid of some annoying rivals.


    Though to be honest, most caerns are in places that Vampires don't go. They are located in Wilderness with few people to feed on. An urban caern would be more tempting, but the Bone Gnawers and Glasswalkers would expect and be prepared for Vampire attacks. Though perhaps not from a low generation vampire. As a vampire PC, I'd be more worried as to why an elder vampire wants a Lupine holy site. It's a place of power, so what nefarious plans do they have for all that supernatural energy?


    Are you ready to rage? Discover if you are Brave Enough to fight for the soul of the world.

    The Werewolf: the Apocalypse Quest updates on Mondays. All are welcome to vote.

    Comment


    • #3
      They would be mostly dead, I'd say. Litany forbids letting a Caern be damaged, and Vampires are big enough eff you to garou that they would fight to the last garou. Those who escape might try to drum up interest, and a war party might help. But in general a bunch of vampires with no bane or BSD allies coming to claim a Caern either gets wiped out fast, or the fight will destroy the whole area.

      EDIT: Or, what wonderandawe said, mostly just the garou scattering to the winds.
      Last edited by Ana Mizuki; 02-25-2017, 11:44 AM.


      My gallery.

      Comment


      • #4
        So the chances of a whole Caern's Garou just walking off....because? Not likely. A good majority of the population should be dead from fighting to defend the Caern. From the survivors, that's mostly been covered (going to other Septs and or the Rite of the Winter Wolf are likely possibilities), but I will add an additional thought on the idea of taking back the Caern.

        I do think there is a good chance of survivors trying to rally enough forces to take back the Caern though ("trying" being the key word there). Whether or not that is realistic will depend entirely on the amount of allies the individuals left have ties to. And the higher the Caern level the more likely you can pull in help. However...even if you take the Caern back, there is a good chance you don't get to keep it. The help you brought in has completely legitimate reasons to claim the Caern themselves afterwards. So that's a factor to consider. Personally, even if someone else claimed the Caern, I think it would be worth it to have it back in Gaian hands.

        On the last bit thrown in there:
        Originally posted by 11twiggins View Post
        Assuming that Ratkin and Ananasi are hiding in the shadows, how would they feel about such events?
        Neither of them care. Not even a little bit unless it is going to directly impact them. The Ratkin might have a quick chuckle and go on about their day.
        Last edited by idpersona; 02-25-2017, 12:25 PM.


        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by idpersona View Post
          So the chances of a whole Caern's Garou just walking off....because? Not likely.
          I think the implication is that Dominate and Presence are used on them to tell them to go away.


          My gallery.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Ana Mizuki View Post

            I think the implication is that Dominate and Presence are used on them to tell them to go away.
            Exactly, and we're talking Level 8 or 9 powers so it's becoming more and more reasonable as an outcome. The issue is Frenzy, which is why Obfuscate is desirable. Even Ventru would have difficulty dealing with a group of Lupines who are in total Frenzy, since it makes dealing with Dominate and Presence very easy (unless the ST decides that Dominate 10 even effects animalistic minds, but that would be a bit... theme-breaking).

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by idpersona View Post
              So the chances of a whole Caern's Garou just walking off....because? Not likely. A good majority of the population should be dead from fighting to defend the Caern. From the survivors, that's mostly been covered (going to other Septs and or the Rite of the Winter Wolf are likely possibilities), but I will add an additional thought on the idea of taking back the Caern.

              I do think there is a good chance of survivors trying to rally enough forces to take back the Caern though ("trying" being the key word there). Whether or not that is realistic will depend entirely on the amount of allies the individuals left have ties to. And the higher the Caern level the more likely you can pull in help. However...even if you take the Caern back, there is a good chance you don't get to keep it. The help you brought in has completely legitimate reasons to claim the Caern themselves afterwards. So that's a factor to consider. Personally, even if someone else claimed the Caern, I think it would be worth it to have it back in Gaian hands.

              On the last bit thrown in there:

              Neither of them care. Not even a little bit unless it is going to directly impact them. The Ratkin might have a quick chuckle and go on about their day.
              I was thinking about them losing the Caern to those who help them recover it. Makes sense.

              Surely the Ananasi COULD care, hypothetically? A powerful Vampire taking control of a site of mystical power is potentially quite a big deal. However they're just as likely to say "oh, yes, all part of our grand plan" as they are to do anything about it, am I right?

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by 11twiggins View Post

                Exactly, and we're talking Level 8 or 9 powers so it's becoming more and more reasonable as an outcome. The issue is Frenzy, which is why Obfuscate is desirable. Even Ventru would have difficulty dealing with a group of Lupines who are in total Frenzy, since it makes dealing with Dominate and Presence very easy (unless the ST decides that Dominate 10 even effects animalistic minds, but that would be a bit... theme-breaking).
                I should note that garou can resist vampire powers with Rage, and given vampires are attacking them, I'd say there is a bit of it to go around.


                My gallery.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by wonderandawe View Post
                  Though to be honest, most caerns are in places that Vampires don't go. They are located in Wilderness with few people to feed on. An urban caern would be more tempting, but the Bone Gnawers and Glasswalkers would expect and be prepared for Vampire attacks. Though perhaps not from a low generation vampire. As a vampire PC, I'd be more worried as to why an elder vampire wants a Lupine holy site. It's a place of power, so what nefarious plans do they have for all that supernatural energy?
                  Well in this case it's kind of coincidental. Before he fell into Torpor a battle took place there, and someone he cared deeply for was destroyed there. He's literally just gone there to mourn for a few months while controlling things from afar, before retreating somewhere more safe. Since he's a potent blood mage he might make use of the ambient energy there, but for a Blood Mage a Caern is like giving a nuclear reactor to someone and saying "here's some energy", I doubt he could harness it and even if he could it wouldn't have the best results.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Ana Mizuki View Post

                    I should note that garou can resist vampire powers with Rage, and given vampires are attacking them, I'd say there is a bit of it to go around.
                    Well... look at it this way. Willpower 10 and the Iron Will merit make you practically immune to Dominate. But Iron Will does nothing to Elder Level Dominate powers (well, kind of, but brushing over it very quickly that's the gist). I'd doubt the ability of Rage to counter Level 8 Dominate from someone with a ridiculous dice-pool... but this is exactly the discussion I was trying to avoid, brushing over things, we'll say if a Vampire's Power Level is over 9000 then they can Dominate Garou with a high success rate.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      I feel like this whole hypothetical is predicated on a vampire with nearly god-tier powers; if you have a methuselah walking around in your game with dominate 8-9 and the one specific obscure Thaumaturgy path that deals with umbral spirits, anything goes. You are just making stuff up at that point, rules hardly matter and precedent isn't really set. This is like asking what happens to the local vampire court if an elder Theurge convinced an avatar of Helios manifest in Elysium. They get fucked, most of them die, and the survivors, if there are any, are in a bad way.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by The Laughing Stranger View Post
                        I feel like this whole hypothetical is predicated on a vampire with nearly god-tier powers; if you have a methuselah walking around in your game with dominate 8-9 and the one specific obscure Thaumaturgy path that deals with umbral spirits, anything goes. You are just making stuff up at that point, rules hardly matter and precedent isn't really set. This is like asking what happens to the local vampire court if an elder Theurge convinced an avatar of Helios manifest in Elysium. They get fucked, most of them die, and the survivors, if there are any, are in a bad way.
                        Ignoring all but a bit of this since it's thread-capping, generally quite negative and provokes the question "why comment then?" more than anything else (whilst oddly also questioning the value of hypothetical questions entirely)...

                        RE Spirit Thaumaturgy, Ward Against Spirits is a generic level 5 Thaumaturgy Ritual which affects intangible beings. "Stay away spirits" isn't too hard to pull off, even with relatively common Blood Magic.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by idpersona View Post
                          However...even if you take the Caern back, there is a good chance you don't get to keep it. The help you brought in has completely legitimate reasons to claim the Caern themselves afterwards. So that's a factor to consider.
                          This was my thought, too. If they could muster the power to take back the Caern, said power would likely not leave them in charge for their failure.

                          Originally posted by 11twiggins View Post
                          Surely the Ananasi COULD care, hypothetically? A powerful Vampire taking control of a site of mystical power is potentially quite a big deal. However they're just as likely to say "oh, yes, all part of our grand plan" as they are to do anything about it, am I right?
                          That drastically depends on what's at stake for the Ananasi. If it's just some random Caern, she's liable to not care too much. It's not her business, her fight, or her problem. Ananasi tend to have two main, driving goals: 1) Free mommy from the Wyrm, and 2) Restore the balance of the Triat. Also keep in mind that there are werespiders who specifically "work for" each of the members of the Triat, in their efforts to restore balance (ultimately, they work for Ananasa, but they actively aid the soothing of the Triat). This will color their perception on how things should play out.

                          They have smaller goals as they go throughout their business, but these goals will likely ultimately tie back into those big two. If one of the people (on either side) involved in the battle is someone that she needs for whatever reason or another, and she can leverage this into a position of personal gain (say, a huge favor in return), then maybe she'd care. But think in a calculating way. It's ridiculously risky for an Ananasi to get involved in this kind of ordeal. If that particular Caern means something in the greater scheme of things (perhaps some prophecy or something similar), she might try to influence which direction things go in (obviously to whichever direction serves her needs).

                          So, in short, would the random Ananasi give a damn? Probably not. If you're the ST, you'd have to provide a plausible motivation for why she'd care at all. It'd likely have to connect to her big goals somehow.
                          Last edited by Wakuwa; 02-25-2017, 01:20 PM.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by The Laughing Stranger View Post
                            I feel like this whole hypothetical is predicated on a vampire with nearly god-tier powers; if you have a methuselah walking around in your game with dominate 8-9 and the one specific obscure Thaumaturgy path that deals with umbral spirits, anything goes. You are just making stuff up at that point, rules hardly matter and precedent isn't really set. This is like asking what happens to the local vampire court if an elder Theurge convinced an avatar of Helios manifest in Elysium. They get fucked, most of them die, and the survivors, if there are any, are in a bad way.
                            Yeah, it is an atom bomb. They can build from it, sure. But most likely it is just a lot of dead garou.


                            My gallery.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              I was kind of annoyed since it seemed a little too perfect of a Kobayashi-Maru scenario for the werewolves, but you are discussing this in good faith, 11twiggins. I should not have come off so harshly.
                              Originally posted by 11twiggins View Post
                              RE Spirit Thaumaturgy, Ward Against Spirits is a generic level 5 Thaumaturgy Ritual which affects intangible beings. "Stay away spirits" isn't too hard to pull off, even with relatively common Blood Magic.
                              Oh. That is how it is doing it? That is more common, sure, but it is also comparatively weak. The ritual states that it works exactly like Ward Against Ghouls, but that only effects one object, and even then, only hurts the spirit if it comes in direct contact. You arguably could not ward a 'whole caern' since it gives the example of specific car parts being warded, rather than the car holisitically (although as I re-read the original ghoul-warding ritual, it now it seems like spirit-killing bullets are on the table. Impractical, given the existence of the Gauntlet, but awesome nonetheless).

                              That vamp is gonna have a rough time, because charms can still effect it, and if the spirits know incite frenzy, they very well could use it on their own packs in order to goad them into defending a caern when they would otherwise flee. Edit: and even if the spirits were in direct contact with the ward via manifestation or other shenanigans, they would likely just grit their teeth/teeth analogues and take the damage, since most spirits of relevant caliber have a fairly large pool of essence. They are fighting for their home too, and totem spirits have as much, if not more, invested in the caern than the Garou do.
                              Last edited by The Laughing Stranger; 02-25-2017, 01:38 PM.

                              Comment

                              Working...
                              X