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How do Proud Warriors respond to Humiliation?

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  • #76
    The amount of head shaking I've done reading these last few posts. And it isn't that the idea is implausible. I've had a similar character in a game. But that Vampire never went near the Caern if it could help it. It's one thing to have a mysterious entity that shows up occasionally to help. It's another to have said creature integrated into the Caern structure.
    Originally posted by wonderandawe View Post
    Shit. The Kindred may not even need to use Dominate/Presence after the first few generations. The Garou who are raised in this Sept wouldn't think anything of their undead "kin" because they have known him all of their life. The elders of the Sept would even see the vampire as a dear old uncle. They would protect his identity from visiting Garou.
    And they would get Rite of Gaia's Vengeful Teeth when they were found out eventually. This is pretty much the definition of not allowing a Caern to be violated.

    Originally posted by wonderandawe View Post
    Now I imagine there may be some uppity ancestors who want the Kindred dead for leeching off their descendants.
    "uppity ancestors"? For not wanting their descendants working alongside a leech to protect their sacred places? If this was setup out in the open like this, the spirits would tell others all but immediately.
    The premise from further up of the Vampire in question hiding among the Kinfolk (probably off-Caern) works a lot better.

    Originally posted by 11twiggins View Post
    I'm liking this. IMO the best Clan would be Ahrimane or some kind of Koldun. Ideally an Ahrimane with Koldunism. She's Grandmother, and her Disciplines cover up her lack of life signs and her high Path rating (Kings would work, especially Vizier since it promotes 'advising' (read: ruling) from the shadows) cover her Wyrm taint. She uses Spiritus to communicate with animal spirits, and she has advised the occupants of this level 5 Caern for... 1000 years? For bonus points she was Kinfolk before the embrace, making her a more believable individual RE backstory.
    You would have to make up your own Blood Magic since Koldunism in very much Wyrm-tainted. You can use the system and just say it's from Gaian sources if you'd like, but it would still be very different from a metaphysical standpoint.
    Also, just toss out the idea of this happening at a high level Caern. That just isn't going to happen. There are too many powerful Spirits that show up to them and too much Garou (and other Fera) traffic. You'll want to have a max Level 3 for something like this.
    Oh...and Road of Kings is Wyrm tainted if you look at it from the WtA perspective (all Roads are). There are sometimes exceptions made for specific Roads/Paths for specific reasons, but I would never put Kings in there among them.

    Originally posted by 11twiggins View Post
    Here's the real question. If a Garou discovered her true nature and killed her, would that be a loss of Wisdom or a gain of Valour?
    They would get a large chunk of both Wisdom and Glory. Glory for killing the Vampire. Wisdom for uncovering a long running deceit. Truthfulness falls under Wisdom.
    Oh, and extra Wisdom and Honor Renown for essentially rescuing a Caern.

    Originally posted by 11twiggins View Post
    Ooh. Big question. Let's say this Grandmother thing works and she's a fixture of the Caern for ages. A Warrior is on their deathbed and they don't want to die. Would an embrace be acceptable? The Garou were big on obtaining the Rite from the Gurahl which would resurrect fallen warriors... then again, one trusted longstanding Kinfolk who has mastered their condition and lasted for centuries without any real incident is one thing. Letting them "breed"... no.
    Absolutely not. And resurrection and the Embrace aren't even close to the same thing.

    Originally posted by 11twiggins View Post
    Well some aren't allergic, there are canonical Ghouled Werewolves.
    Not since early edition weirdness.

    Originally posted by 11twiggins View Post
    I'd say that Grandma would use Blood Magic to pull it off. If you wanted to twist it and make it darker, she's spread her blood into the water of the Caern to strengthen the plants, animals, kin and the Garou. Their little sub-tribe is EXCEPTIONALLY strong, and there are legends of how the water will heal wounded warriors and grant them temporary strength. With a powerful ritual she converts her blood to water (Way of Water based Rite) but it keeps the Ghouling effects. Those who drink the water have prolonged but not unlimited lifespans, and the plants are enormous and powerful, and highly nutritious.
    Just no. Garou are very much about the natural cycle, and a Caern's inhabitants all living extended lifetimes will be noticed.

    Originally posted by 11twiggins View Post
    As an alternative, she's pretending to be an Ananasi, not a Vampire. Hard to pull off, but not impossible.
    Because an Ananasi is going to be any more welcome at a Caern? This goes into the Realm of a lot more obscure knowledge than just knowing about Garou.


    Originally posted by 11twiggins View Post
    As a plot-starter, another Tribe or Sept or Pack claim that this Caern has "fallen to the Wyrm" and begin sabotaging things, trying to gather a War Pack. As a sad possible ending, Grandmother greets the sun to try and spare her family the War Pack, but this just leads to the environment beginning to die since it has become dependent on her blood. The rest of the chronicle is finding a way to restore the Caern's spirit and stop the decay of the wildlife.
    So the environment is going to begin to die because it's been cut off from undead blood? How does that make any sense at all to you? Having a Vampire feeding off a Caern for ages and then having said Vampire disappear is going to do wonders for the area.


    So again, the premise of this idea is passable. But the Vampire has to be very careful to avoid stepping onto the Caern's Bawn. Because once they do, the ruse begins to fall apart. And if they are "living" openly among the Sept, then this is just going to be more of a tragic story since most of the Sept members are going to die when the Caern inevitably gets spear headed and taken over. This is the exact sort of thing that makes the Shadow Lord Judges of Doom necessary/respected among the Garou Nation.
    Last edited by idpersona; 02-27-2017, 02:20 PM.


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    • #77
      Well, I am not disagreeing with idpersona, as the vast majority of Methuselah are just going to be too much of the Wyrm to be anything acceptable. For a Methuselah to be accepted by the Garou, she would have had to have served Gaia (and an Incarna) long enough to become something else, perhaps a Kami Kindred? The respect that the Garou have for the Kami might balance out their loathing of the Kindred, but we are really talking about a unique entity (who might end up transcending into an Incarna long before she became a Kami).

      Now, that being said, a Methuselah with high levels of Humanity or the Path of the Feral Heart (since that is treated as Humanity for the purposes of being considered to be a creature of the Wyrm according to the Vampire's Storyteller's Handbook: Revised, p. 137) could possibly masquerade as Kinfolk using elder levels of Dominate, Obfuscate, and Presence (especially if she had elder powers that worked on spirits). She would probably think that the local Bawn was her territory and the local Kinfolk were her Herd and, as long as she did not interfere too much with the local Garou, no one would suspect that anything was wrong (as she would not be considered to be a creature of the Wyrm with Humanity 7+ or the Path of the Feral Heart 7+). Now, if she fell below Humanity 7 or the Path of the Feral Heart 7, things would probably start to go wrong very, very quickly.

      I would probably require a sixth level elder power to allow a specific Discipline to work on Gafflings, a seventh level elder power to allow a specific Discipline to work on Jagglings, an eighth level elder power to allow a specific Discipline to work on Totem Avatars, and a ninth level elder power to allow a specific Discipline to work on Incarna (purchasing the higher level powers would not give you the capabilities of the lower level powers because they work on different spiritual 'frequencies'). While Obfuscate would work on anything trying to perceive you visually, you would need an Obfuscate 9 elder power to interfere with the spiritual perceptions of an Incarna. In the case of Dominate and Presence, you would have to be able to perceive a spirit to be able to benefit from using the elder powers.

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      • #78
        Originally posted by Aya Tari View Post
        Well, I am not disagreeing with idpersona, as the vast majority of Methuselah are just going to be too much of the Wyrm to be anything acceptable. For a Methuselah to be accepted by the Garou, she would have had to have served Gaia (and an Incarna) long enough to become something else, perhaps a Kami Kindred? The respect that the Garou have for the Kami might balance out their loathing of the Kindred, but we are really talking about a unique entity (who might end up transcending into an Incarna long before she became a Kami).
        So at least for the game I ran, the local Garou though the Vampire was a Kami. They only encountered him once every few decades, if that. Once it showed up to help defend the Caern from an assault, but disappeared before the fight actually ended so they didn't have time to really examine it at all. I think 1 Elder found out, but kept it to herself since there wasn't anything to be done about it.

        Originally posted by Aya Tari View Post
        Now, that being said, a Methuselah with high levels of Humanity or the Path of the Feral Heart (since that is treated as Humanity for the purposes of being considered to be a creature of the Wyrm according to the Vampire's Storyteller's Handbook: Revised, p. 137) could possibly masquerade as Kinfolk using elder levels of Dominate, Obfuscate, and Presence (especially if she had elder powers that worked on spirits). She would probably think that the local Bawn was her territory and the local Kinfolk were her Herd and, as long as she did not interfere too much with the local Garou, no one would suspect that anything was wrong (as she would not be considered to be a creature of the Wyrm with Humanity 7+ or the Path of the Feral Heart 7+). Now, if she fell below Humanity 7 or the Path of the Feral Heart 7, things would probably start to go wrong very, very quickly.
        See, I can agree with this approach a lot more than the "known ally" approach. Though it still gets to be an extremely dangerous area if the Vampire is feeding off of the Kinfolk. There is no reason not to feed elsewhere if you are this powerful. Doing so just invites unwanted attention. And if the Vampire does in fact view the Kinfolk as their family, then that's just more of a reason to feed from others.

        Originally posted by Aya Tari View Post
        I would probably require a sixth level elder power to allow a specific Discipline to work on Gafflings, a seventh level elder power to allow a specific Discipline to work on Jagglings, an eighth level elder power to allow a specific Discipline to work on Totem Avatars, and a ninth level elder power to allow a specific Discipline to work on Incarna (purchasing the higher level powers would not give you the capabilities of the lower level powers because they work on different spiritual 'frequencies'). While Obfuscate would work on anything trying to perceive you visually, you would need an Obfuscate 9 elder power to interfere with the spiritual perceptions of an Incarna. In the case of Dominate and Presence, you would have to be able to perceive a spirit to be able to benefit from using the elder powers.
        I think I would more format it as a single power to affect spirits, and have successes determine the power level of spirits that could be effected. That tends to be more in line with how Disciplines are formatter I think.
        Slight nitpick. You have Totem Avatar and Incarna as separate. This is just my understanding but: Totems are Incarna. Totem Avatars (like pack spirits) are Jagglings (usually. Some really weak ones might be Gafflings). That being said, the power jumps between the tiers of spirits are significant. If I were to set it up the way you did (and the more I think about it, the more I like that setup), I think it would be more fitting to say:
        Level 6: Gafflings
        Level 8: Jagglings
        Level 10: Incarna

        Nothing below Antediluvians should be being compared to Incarna for sheer power.
        Last edited by idpersona; 02-27-2017, 03:35 PM.


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