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Thoughts on future werewolf 5ed by looking at the BNS book

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  • Edit: This is in response to Lian

    That is... extremely inaccurate.

    In the BNS metaplot Garou and kin birth rates are increasing. The BNS metaplot says the dying of the Garou via breeding was actually a Wyrm attack that went unnoticed, but the war with Storm Eater pulled the banes responsible away to join in what was supposed to be the final battle. Thus the Garou and kin are flourishing without the Wyrm actively keeping their numbers down by decreasing their birth rates. It's also a potential cause of the Bitten (releasing all that energy into the system and such).

    Not defending these choices, but that's how the game is presented.

    -----------

    Originally posted by Maris Streck View Post
    I don't like the "bitten" part either. I get that some people might like it but I feel that it takes away the importance of kinfolk families.
    Remember that the Bitten are basically Metis. They're sterile and can't Bite new Bitten either. So kin families and such are still pretty important.

    It's not half bad. I usually HR that higher pure breed means that you lose more renown then you should but asking for more to level up might be better (or just combinable), How much more renown do you ask? 2 for each PB dot?
    Never settled on a final number because I got distracted by other things. It's a more complete overhaul because I don't like the way the sample rewards tend to play out and such. So keeping in mind lower temporary gains per event and less little details, as well as having boasting at Moots increase temp. Renown, I was looking at something like:

    Base + Rank + Pure Breed + Sept Standing - Position.

    The Base is something I haven't quite put numbers to but probably 4-6 points divided between each category based on Auspice. So Ahrouns would have a higher Glory Base than Wisdom or Honor because it takes more killing Wyrm for them to up their Renown than other Auspices. Etc.
    Last edited by Heavy Arms; 11-20-2018, 03:31 AM.

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    • Originally posted by Maris Streck View Post
      This is actually a bad idea, since it's against the official TT background.
      Ok here's the thing:

      From what I can gather, BNS's take on WtA was NOT designed with the intent of hooking in tabletop fans.

      That as is, much of WtA's setting and mechanics were unsuited for a LARP environment. That LARP games tend to lean more towards faction politicking. Something that's more readily apparent in Vampire and Changeling, but not in Werewolf. I guess they felt like moot politicking wasn't an interesting enough hook into a LARP. Which means making mechanical and setting changes to accommodate the new medium. It was purely just for making sure Werewolf worked in a LARP environment and that's it.

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      • I think that's a fair point about a lot of stuff in the BNS WtA book... but I'm not sure how it applies well to the Silver Fang weakness. Giving the whole Tribe the need to pick a 'quirk' at creation doesn't have anything to do with making the game more LARP friendly. It certainly doesn't do anything to help make the game more political.

        Edit:

        To expand on this, the change in the Wendigo weakness from the weird seasonal thing to a straight up Frenzy modifier is clearly something for working better in the LARP on a few levels: it's simpler, and it work with most LARPs being real time and less frequent than TT play, so you don't have have half a weakness never come up because you only LARP twice a year a a big event, etc.

        Changing "pick a derangment" to "use two dots of Flaws that don't provide you any benefit," doesn't seem to have any real purpose towards better LARP play.
        Last edited by Heavy Arms; 11-20-2018, 06:06 PM.

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        • Originally posted by Heavy Arms View Post
          Edit: This is in response to Lian

          That is... extremely inaccurate.

          In the BNS metaplot Garou and kin birth rates are increasing. The BNS metaplot says the dying of the Garou via breeding was actually a Wyrm attack that went unnoticed, but the war with Storm Eater pulled the banes responsible away to join in what was supposed to be the final battle. Thus the Garou and kin are flourishing without the Wyrm actively keeping their numbers down by decreasing their birth rates. It's also a potential cause of the Bitten (releasing all that energy into the system and such).

          Not defending these choices, but that's how the game is presented.
          I Only read it once and noped out on seeing the Bitten but I remember something about the wyrm keeping people from properly changing who should have and that being a merit.. and the bitten really only being noticed because of the changes.

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          • Originally posted by Ana Mizuki View Post
            I really don't see a point of making a new edition yet, but that is just me. If they recanonized Shattered Dreams and not repeat Changing Ways mess, 20th lines wouldn't be too bad.
            To have Paradox-White Wolf get more control on it than OPP (May have) over Ww20 [Depending on Franchising arrangements]
            To have the system changes reflect across the board for the x5 range
            and finally, to set up the Werewolf world frame for the "Transmedia" part, whatever plans they have on that - TV/Movies/Games etc (The Pokie Machines they have for Vampire)

            For the Werewolf story and systems; by themselves it doesn't make sense to update so quickly to W5.

            Originally posted by Maris Streck View Post

            This is actually a bad idea, since it's against the official TT background. Also, inbreeding does not work that way.
            The association between Fangs, inbreeding and mental illness is mostly slander, hearsay and propaganda circulating between other tribes. The Silver Fangs do suffer from madness but that's caused by a curse from Luna, as explained in the Silver Fangs tribebook, and it only affects the kings of the tribe - it never activates on regular garou.
            That sounds just like a Silver Fang, trying to talk their way out of the fact they keep breeding with their cousins.

            Originally posted by Lian View Post
            From what I remember part of the metaplot is that Garou can't be born anymore but those who WOULD have been garou can become garou through the bite and anyone else dies.. so plot basically gives Garou the birthing plague..
            Yeah. It's not biting just anyone, it's biting someone that should have turned. If you try it on someone that wasn't going to turn; they will die painfully.
            It's an extension of a curse/plague from the Wyrm, not a new way to recruit.

            P366 of Minds Eye Werewolf "They discovered that the majority of those Bitten suffered a horrific illness and died within a short time, but a precious few endured the horrific ordeal.....
            Potential werewolves became stuck in their development, just before their First Change. These individuals, known as Unborn, had existed previously, though in much fewer numbers. The Wyrm’s efforts halted the transformation for a significant portion of the new generation of Cubs, creating a legion of Unborn. Nearly half a generation of werewolves was lost when the Garou Nation needed it the most. Extensive research eventually revealed the Wyrm’s agents were actively denying these potential Garou their birthright—preventing them from crossing the spiritual bridge and realizing their full capabilities as werewolves."

            The Black furies changing ratio of sex in child birth was another curse/plague from the Wyrm

            Sidebar P 62 "The Metamorphic Plague visited upon the Black Furies during the Age of the Weaver birthed a new generation of children of both genders in equal numbers within this tribe. My mothers were among the first to keep children who were born male. I remember the pride on their faces during my Rite of Passage, when Pegasus looked into my heart and proclaimed the truth. Afterwards, they embraced me not just as their daughter, but a sister of the tribe."

            Personally, I think it's interesting, it gives an option for more character concepts for characters that don't have the same ties to the wolves as before. I like that it ties in some of the Mythology of Lycanthropy for the bitten.
            It also give something that's interesting; the Bitten can't offer the bite to the Unborn, but they're still Garou who can breed (Not Sterile from what I've found)
            Some Garou go through normally, so there's a divide with interesting complications.
            Kinfolk, who are really useful to Garou, have a lot wanting to try for the change, at a high risk of dying. Do you take the risk to get more Garou now, or not and have an upset Kinfolk, but more stable breeding stock in the future.

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            • Originally posted by Illithid View Post
              Sidebar P 62 "The Metamorphic Plague visited upon the Black Furies during the Age of the Weaver birthed a new generation of children of both genders in equal numbers within this tribe. My mothers were among the first to keep children who were born male. I remember the pride on their faces during my Rite of Passage, when Pegasus looked into my heart and proclaimed the truth. Afterwards, they embraced me not just as their daughter, but a sister of the tribe."
              In this, I'd just have to ask; why'd they give a crap about it? Yes, more male children are born, great give the garou to other tribes. Like Furies have always done.


              My gallery.

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              • Originally posted by Ana Mizuki View Post

                In this, I'd just have to ask; why'd they give a crap about it? Yes, more male children are born, great give the garou to other tribes. Like Furies have always done.
                Exactly.........

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                • Originally posted by Ana Mizuki View Post
                  In this, I'd just have to ask; why'd they give a crap about it? Yes, more male children are born, great give the garou to other tribes. Like Furies have always done.
                  The historian is "Verity Argyris" the implication is that she was assigned male at birth but accepted in to the tribe "not just as their daughter, but a sister of the tribe." as a sign of accepting Transwomen now.

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                  • Originally posted by Illithid View Post

                    The historian is "Verity Argyris" the implication is that she was assigned male at birth but accepted in to the tribe "not just as their daughter, but a sister of the tribe." as a sign of accepting Transwomen now.
                    That would be fine. But the text in the tribe part clearly states that Furies are accepting cismen to their ranks. Not just Furies, either, Valkyria Camp in Get of Fenris accepts men and the Ajaba are now gender equal.

                    I got NOTHING against Furies accepting transwomen, but I do find the trend of taking away female-only or female-led spaces rather unfortunate.


                    My gallery.

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                    • Originally posted by Illithid View Post
                      For the Werewolf story and systems; by themselves it doesn't make sense to update so quickly to W5.
                      Considering the list of things WtA needs better rules on? Yeah, they systems by themselves make sense to update to W5 "so quickly."

                      That sounds just like a Silver Fang, trying to talk their way out of the fact they keep breeding with their cousins.
                      No, it's the Revised Silver Fang Tribebook retcon for the Tribal Weakness because the inbreeding justification is stupid out of game (that's not how inbreeding works, and royals inbreeding to the level of significant biological impact is a blip in the radar of history) and in universe (the Silver Fangs aren't actually any more inbred than any of the other Tribes that put a focus on Pure Breed and maintaining bloodlines like the Fianna, Fenrir, Shadow Lords, and Wendigo, perhaps less so when you consider the Silver Fangs have a bigger breeding pool than a lot of the ethnic/location based Tribes do).

                      (Not Sterile from what I've found)
                      BNS WtA pages: 35, 322 (most important as it's the Flaw to make your character one of the Bitten), and 369.


                      Originally posted by Ana Mizuki View Post
                      I got NOTHING against Furies accepting transwomen, but I do find the trend of taking away female-only or female-led spaces rather unfortunate.
                      All of the female-led spaces still are. Black Fury males (remembering that there have always been males in the Tribe) can't raise above Adren in Rank and aren't allowed positions of increased authority.

                      The Ajaba are not gender equal, they're just not longer purely matriarchal. Male Ajaba in positions of power are exceptions, and their society is still based in matriarchal traditions.

                      The Valkyries camp accepts men now, but it's not stated how equally they're treated. Though considering that the male Get that forced the issue is explicitly gay, the point of the group as fighting the toxic masculinity that permeates mainstream Get culture isn't really harmed by taking in men that suffer under it as well, or allies seeking to aid the cause. Camps are, after all, social affiliations, not spaces in this context.

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                      • Originally posted by Ana Mizuki View Post
                        I got NOTHING against Furies accepting transwomen, but I do find the trend of taking away female-only or female-led spaces rather unfortunate.
                        I don't like it. Unless those trans women had a proper total sex change (not surgery, something like an Umbral quest to persuade Eshtarra to alter the garou's body) I wouldn't let Pegasus accept them. I understand that they want to stay in line with the times but they were the Amazons, trans women feel out of place there.

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                        • Originally posted by Heavy Arms View Post
                          All of the female-led spaces still are. Black Fury males (remembering that there have always been males in the Tribe) can't raise above Adren in Rank and aren't allowed positions of increased authority.

                          The Ajaba are not gender equal, they're just not longer purely matriarchal. Male Ajaba in positions of power are exceptions, and their society is still based in matriarchal traditions.

                          The Valkyries camp accepts men now, but it's not stated how equally they're treated. Though considering that the male Get that forced the issue is explicitly gay, the point of the group as fighting the toxic masculinity that permeates mainstream Get culture isn't really harmed by taking in men that suffer under it as well, or allies seeking to aid the cause. Camps are, after all, social affiliations, not spaces in this context.
                          What is the point of these, though, if they don't affect things? In a general sense, why note the ajaba no longer are purely matricial? Or that Valkyries have male members? Nevermind Furies accepting cismen who are not metis?

                          I'm against these, because they feel meaningless or just outright take away from the tribe. With Furies, their gender-exclusion very much defined them and not in a bad way. Take it away and they generally seem just more Wyldy Children of Gaia/Bone Gnawers/Glass Walkers. Sure, to veteran players there is a difference, but purely concept wise it just doesn't fit.

                          With transwomen, the matter is different, because changing gender or physical sex is seen as very spiritual and boundary breakingin itself.


                          My gallery.

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                          • Originally posted by Maris Streck View Post
                            I don't like it. Unless those trans women had a proper total sex change (not surgery, something like an Umbral quest to persuade Eshtarra to alter the garou's body) I wouldn't let Pegasus accept them. I understand that they want to stay in line with the times but they were the Amazons, trans women feel out of place there.
                            As other posters have detailed many times in the past? The ancient Greeks especially for European cultures had a level of concept approaching modern gender; that gender was not your biological parts.

                            Also... Pegasus started as a male spirit. So... the idea that Pegasus would be this picky about transwomen doesn't really make sense because Pegasus is the spirit that decides what is and isn't an acceptable Black Fury.

                            Originally posted by Ana Mizuki View Post
                            What is the point of these, though, if they don't affect things?
                            1) They do affect things, they just don't eliminate that these are female-led groups as asserted before.

                            2) They reinforce the BNS metaplot where all of these groups have been reduced in number by a huge extent, meaning a lot of their exclusionary attitudes fell to pure necessity and a new generation that's more inclusive. The BNS metaplot had the Gaian forces reduced to a tiny fraction of already small numbers during the battles with the Black Crusade and Storm Eater. They literally need every Garou they can get their hands on (also why the Bitten found acceptance despite some resistance, they just need the numbers too badly). Rejecting male born Black Furies from being raised as Black Furies and giving them a chance to prove themselves allies to their mothers, sisters, and daughters in the eyes of Pegasus is now a direct risk to the survival of the Tribe because that would leave too few Garou Black Furies around to do anything. If the Ajaba didn't let more males into positions of leadership... they'd be empty because there aren't enough proven females to go around any more.

                            With Furies, their gender-exclusion very much defined them and not in a bad way.
                            Except it never defined them because they weren't truly exclusionary, and it is kind of a bad way because it's dumb to kick the men out of your Tribe (since that means reducing your breeding capabilities) just to assert a matriarchal society. Matriarchal societies have men. Patriarchal societies have women. If the Black Furies' matriarch is so fragile that allowing male non-Metis Garou in while denying them equal rights (since they already had male Metis and male kin in) destroys their concept as a matriarchal society... it so poorly constructed it wasn't coherent in the first place.

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                            • Originally posted by Illithid View Post


                              Sidebar P 62 "The Metamorphic Plague visited upon the Black Furies during the Age of the Weaver birthed a new generation of children of both genders in equal numbers within this tribe. My mothers were among the first to keep children who were born male. I remember the pride on their faces during my Rite of Passage, when Pegasus looked into my heart and proclaimed the truth. Afterwards, they embraced me not just as their daughter, but a sister of the tribe."
                              .
                              was this ever thing? I don't remember the Furies being magically less likely to have male children.. they just gave them away.

                              Originally posted by Maris Streck View Post

                              I don't like it. Unless those trans women had a proper total sex change (not surgery, something like an Umbral quest to persuade Eshtarra to alter the garou's body) I wouldn't let Pegasus accept them. I understand that they want to stay in line with the times but they were the Amazons, trans women feel out of place there.
                              Since the Amazons are fictional its hard to tell, BUT many less patriarchal societies seemed to be much more accepting of nonbinary gender roles

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                              • Originally posted by Lian View Post

                                was this ever thing? I don't remember the Furies being magically less likely to have male children.. they just gave them away.
                                No it wasn't....which is just another in the long list of nonsense BNS has inflicted on WtA in order that LARPers can have even more special-snowflake characters....the days of every Camarilla LARP being composed of 50% Lasombra Antitribu and every Werewolf LARP choking on the numbers of inexplicable White Howlers are certainly not over.

                                Pegasus judges acceptability and it is based on whether or not the individual Garou is spiritually female and dedicated to protect the Wyld and enforce Pegasus' edicts on humanity....so transfolk were always ok, cubs were always given to other tribes ( from the Middle Ages onwards) and there were always equal numbers of both physical sexes born to Furies and Fury kinfolk.

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