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  • Originally posted by Heavy Arms View Post
    Also... Pegasus started as a male spirit. So... the idea that Pegasus would be this picky about transwomen doesn't really make sense because Pegasus is the spirit that decides what is and isn't an acceptable Black Fury.
    IIRC Pegasus has a couple of canons in WW and no one was actually found definitive. In Umbra Revised it's portrayed as a female and lover of Bellerophon which became spiteful of men after the hero became a tyrant, but I seem to recall that there was a source that defined it as a male which decided to protect women after seeing Bellerophon's behaviour (no romance between the two in this version).

    Thing is that there is no raw saying the spirit shifted his form and changed sex - even assuming it's described differently in two different sources that's simply to be intended as two different forms of the myth.

    I also said that makes sense for Pegasus to accept trans women - hell, she might even offer to make the change herself (should the garou show herself worthy enough). I simply don't think it makes sense to accept them as long as they still are polluted with manhood, but that's just my take.

    As other posters have detailed many times in the past? The ancient Greeks especially for European cultures had a level of concept approaching modern gender; that gender was not your biological parts.
    As far as I recall, ancient greece was quite open and tolerant about homosexual relationships but it still was a place where the women couldn't vote, do politics or enlist in the army. I recall no parity in any of the epic literature or the myths, no mention in their whole written culture about women taking on man-reserved roles because they felt to be men inside and no mention of Amazons with a male body. Women were often portrayed as strong, loyal and determinate characters (Penelope, Arianna, Circe... Aristophanes wrote an entire comedy about all of the women in Athens going on a sex strike to strong-arm their husbands into voting as they wanted), but never in the shades of a gender theory or as if they could break out of their social role.

    I can't remember a single classical source portraying ancient Greece as a gender-fluid society.


    the days of every Camarilla LARP being composed of 50% Lasombra Antitribu and every Werewolf LARP choking on the numbers of inexplicable White Howlers are certainly not over.
    In my last Vampire TT game there was this player that couldn't shut up about wanting to play a Lasombra Antitribu. Luckily the ST didn't allow it, but still - it's a CAMARILLA campaign, just get over it.
    Last edited by Maris Streck; 11-24-2018, 09:49 PM.

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    • Originally posted by Damian May View Post

      No it wasn't....which is just another in the long list of nonsense BNS has inflicted on WtA in order that LARPers can have even more special-snowflake characters....the days of every Camarilla LARP being composed of 50% Lasombra Antitribu and every Werewolf LARP choking on the numbers of inexplicable White Howlers are certainly not over.

      Pegasus judges acceptability and it is based on whether or not the individual Garou is spiritually female and dedicated to protect the Wyld and enforce Pegasus' edicts on humanity....so transfolk were always ok, cubs were always given to other tribes ( from the Middle Ages onwards) and there were always equal numbers of both physical sexes born to Furies and Fury kinfolk.

      I think its funny. Tabletop more readily supports Special snowflake setups and let they always say its "larpers" who are the ones who want it. A game that's A LAT cotorie in a Cam game.. is pretty damned easy to do in TT.. Larp is where "the pcs are the only vampires in the City" where it gets weird.

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      • Originally posted by Damian May View Post
        No it wasn't....which is just another in the long list of nonsense BNS has inflicted on WtA in order that LARPers can have even more special-snowflake characters....the days of every Camarilla LARP being composed of 50% Lasombra Antitribu and every Werewolf LARP choking on the numbers of inexplicable White Howlers are certainly not over.
        If a Larp was half full of Lasombra Antitrubu or White Howlers, that's a problem with the Storytelling team accepting it, not the system for allowing it. Just because you CAN do it, doesn't mean it should be done. Would a Tabletop ST let everyone have true faith because the rules let it? No.

        That being said, I think that Larps need to allow characters to have more of a "Special Snowflake" characters (Though I hate the F-ing term) than a tabletop.
        You have 20% of your players in a TT who are Brujah (1 in 5) and they can be an individual due to the time an ST has to dedicate to the back story and personal life. If you have 20% of your players in a 50 person Larp as Brujah (10) they you want "Snowflake" capacity for them to feel special. Have weird Clan options because it opens up having PCs that are differentiated more easily.
        I don't care about having a single Nagaraja or Kiasd in a city, I'd do it for a large city in a TT, why can't a PC Fill that niche in a LARP.

        One thing I really, really like about BNS MET is the clan rarity merits, you have players spending their merit allocation to be this special. So they weigh it up more, and people tend not to do it if the concept fits as well with a more common clan. But if they really really want to do it; they will.

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        • I wasn't saying it was specific to LARP but we are discussing the changes to Tabletop setting material that the makers of the LARP rules made and why on earth they may have done such silly things....so I gave a personally observed reason as to why they may have made such changes...cos I honestly can't think of a good reason for the vast majority of them.

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          • Originally posted by Illithid View Post
            If a Larp was half full of Lasombra Antitrubu or White Howlers, that's a problem with the Storytelling team accepting it, not the system for allowing it. Just because you CAN do it, doesn't mean it should be done. Would a Tabletop ST let everyone have true faith because the rules let it? No.

            That being said, I think that Larps need to allow characters to have more of a "Special Snowflake" characters (Though I hate the F-ing term) than a tabletop.
            You have 20% of your players in a TT who are Brujah (1 in 5) and they can be an individual due to the time an ST has to dedicate to the back story and personal life. If you have 20% of your players in a 50 person Larp as Brujah (10) they you want "Snowflake" capacity for them to feel special. Have weird Clan options because it opens up having PCs that are differentiated more easily.
            I don't care about having a single Nagaraja or Kiasd in a city, I'd do it for a large city in a TT, why can't a PC Fill that niche in a LARP.

            One thing I really, really like about BNS MET is the clan rarity merits, you have players spending their merit allocation to be this special. So they weigh it up more, and people tend not to do it if the concept fits as well with a more common clan. But if they really really want to do it; they will.

            I think its the other way around. I can have a perfectly average city where the coterie is all LATs or sabbat Infitrators or whatever because they don't represent the majority of characters in existence. Larp goes the other way there are far fewer Npcs per pc. (Though a camarilla larp where everyone is secretly sabbat and they don't know it would be hilarious)

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            • Speaking as a Native on the topic of the Native Garou, their inclusion was what made me buy the book when I came across it on the shelf of a used book store back in the early 00s (aside from werewolves being my favorite classic monster). Despite their execution, I personally felt included in a Fantasy/supernatural fictional setting for once without us being solely a shitty Fantasy counterpart culture of tragic savages and/or a source of exotic wisdom, etc. I also liked how they were a fully functional part of Garou society instead of being outliers like their counterparts in Wraith or Changeling. Are there still severe issues with their execution? Yes. I could go on and on and on about it, but I don’t have the time or the inclination to do so at this point.

              A big part of fixing them, and all the tribes that are heavily ethnic based, is there should have been a greater exploration of the purpose, origin, etc of what the tribes were before said ethnic groups formed and how the greater adoption of these human groups did to shape them. Because honestly, they tend to all feel really static compared to say Vampire clans, Traditions, the Legions, etc.

              Before Forsaken is mentioned as fixing this, it only went part of the way IMO. I like the greater purpose and mythical beginnings of their tribes being their origin point, and it really justifies how they remain these perpetual entities since Pangaea , unlike Apocalypse. However, for all my complaints about the static nature of the Garou tribes , the Urathra come off even more frozen, bland, and video game like. Nothing has changed since Father Wolf died thousands upon thousands of years ago, while in Apocalypse there’s much more extensive history with the War of Rage, the Impergium, the fall of the White Howlers, Croatan, and Bunyip, and so forth. And again, given this “universal” nature of the Forsaken and the Pure, I don’t feel included. It’s very much Euro-American like all the NWoD games. Not to imply Forsaken sucks, because there’s A LOT of material I love and prefer over Apocalypse, but it’s far from this perfect replacement for the faults of Old Werewolf. Over the years, mixing up aspects of both games often fixes holes in the other, but this is another subject.

              In summery, each of the game lines committed the cardinal sins of trying to represent disenfranchised/minority groups. In the classic line, by trying to represent the uniqueness of other cultures, even European ones, they fell heavily into Euro-American stereotypes of these groups. While with the new games, they bleached it so much to be “universal”, they didn’t realize they were basically falling back on the subconscious assumption that a neutral state of humanity is a Euro-American one. I’m not trying to say that the writers are these horrible racists or alt-right jerks. I know they had nothing but the best intentions in mind for these games, but mistakes were made. Like Heavy Arms said, it’s going to happen more often than not when people write about people, countries, and cultures they don’t have much of or any personal contact with, especially when the internet was in its infancy.



              As for the original topic, I find the changes proposed for W5 terrible and detrimental to the game. These are not the changes WtA needs, and if OPP or some other entity pursues them, they will not get another cent from me. V5 was enough of an abomination, and the same goes for their terrible plans for M5.
              Last edited by Onkwe; 01-17-2019, 06:15 PM.

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              • Originally posted by Onkwe View Post
                A big part of fixing them, and all the tribes that are heavily ethnic based, is there should have been a greater exploration of the purpose, origin, etc of what the tribes were before said ethnic groups formed and how the greater adoption of these human groups did to shape them. Because honestly, they tend to all feel really static compared to say Vampire clans, Traditions, the Legions, etc.
                A problem with all the tribes to an extent was how much they were derived from specific human ethnic groups/cultures as opposed to being their own thing separate from the culture of their kinfolk. That never made sense for metis and lupus, but even among homids not all homid members came from those cultures. Vikings were specific to the Norse for a few centuries, but what about Scandinavia afterwards? Or Carolingian or modern Germany? What about the Bronze Age? All the tribes were like that. I think it is OK to take a few stereotypical aspects of some human culture and portray a certain tribe that way, but more work should have been done in building the legend and identity of how their tribal totem affected the development of their adopted Garou children.

                I also liked the fact that initially the game included people all over the world where wolves were indigenous, and that certain tribes were associated with certain people, while some tribes were pretty much open and included people of whatever descent. There was an emphasis on seeing things from a Western perspective, but that's OK. People could develop things on their own. I just think that when it came to developing the Uktena and Wendigo, the authors failed to make a distinction between actual Native American culture for people versus an alien tribal culture of werewolves who worship Uktena (which is actually a combination of Uktena and Mishipeshu in the game) and Wendigo. (And to a lesser degree, failed to think who are all the werewolves in eastern Asia - I really hated how this was neglected originally in the tribebooks and how it was made worse by the various KotE/Hengeyokai books in a desperate attempt to create another moneymaking game line). However, I just ignored that and used my own modified house setting.

                Everything that I hear about the fifth edition game books don't make me interested in them. I'm not really interested in how other people are continuing with metaplot. Metaplot kills game lines. They get a narrower and narrower group of people to buy more and more books, while driving away more people from the game entirely. At some point, the cannibalization causes more harm to the bottomline because the pitiful remnant can no longer buy enough additional game books to make up for the attrition.

                I don't mind the idea of Metaplot as separate ideas of how chronicles can become. That gives an ST a toolkit to use - they can take whatever elements they want, ignore it entirely, or use it as the sole basis for a campaign. And if they want to continue with it great. But if not, then next year there is a new Metaplot chronicle guide. But the one can entirely contradict the other because neither is "canon". They just originate from the original corebook. I approach the different WoD eras as their own thing. 1st/2nd is its own thing, and Revised is its own thing. And my personal chronicle canon is based more on 1st/2nd, ignores Revised completely, and has lots of my own ideas.

                The more time goes by, the more professional supplements look, but in terms of content appear more like fan fiction - a pale imitation of the original taken into whatever weird way the fanboy/girl wanted.

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                • Originally posted by Onkwe View Post
                  and the same goes for their terrible plans for M5.
                  Do you have a link to Paradox's plans for M5?

                  Thanks.


                  PENTEX SUCKS.

                  I'm a gamer. I'm conservative. We exist.

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                  • Originally posted by Black Fox View Post

                    A problem with all the tribes to an extent was how much they were derived from specific human ethnic groups/cultures as opposed to being their own thing separate from the culture of their kinfolk. That never made sense for metis and lupus, but even among homids not all homid members came from those cultures. Vikings were specific to the Norse for a few centuries, but what about Scandinavia afterwards? Or Carolingian or modern Germany? What about the Bronze Age? All the tribes were like that. I think it is OK to take a few stereotypical aspects of some human culture and portray a certain tribe that way, but more work should have been done in building the legend and identity of how their tribal totem affected the development of their adopted Garou children.

                    I also liked the fact that initially the game included people all over the world where wolves were indigenous, and that certain tribes were associated with certain people, while some tribes were pretty much open and included people of whatever descent. There was an emphasis on seeing things from a Western perspective, but that's OK. People could develop things on their own. I just think that when it came to developing the Uktena and Wendigo, the authors failed to make a distinction between actual Native American culture for people versus an alien tribal culture of werewolves who worship Uktena (which is actually a combination of Uktena and Mishipeshu in the game) and Wendigo. (And to a lesser degree, failed to think who are all the werewolves in eastern Asia - I really hated how this was neglected originally in the tribebooks and how it was made worse by the various KotE/Hengeyokai books in a desperate attempt to create another moneymaking game line). However, I just ignored that and used my own modified house setting.

                    Everything that I hear about the fifth edition game books don't make me interested in them. I'm not really interested in how other people are continuing with metaplot. Metaplot kills game lines. They get a narrower and narrower group of people to buy more and more books, while driving away more people from the game entirely. At some point, the cannibalization causes more harm to the bottomline because the pitiful remnant can no longer buy enough additional game books to make up for the attrition.

                    I don't mind the idea of Metaplot as separate ideas of how chronicles can become. That gives an ST a toolkit to use - they can take whatever elements they want, ignore it entirely, or use it as the sole basis for a campaign. And if they want to continue with it great. But if not, then next year there is a new Metaplot chronicle guide. But the one can entirely contradict the other because neither is "canon". They just originate from the original corebook. I approach the different WoD eras as their own thing. 1st/2nd is its own thing, and Revised is its own thing. And my personal chronicle canon is based more on 1st/2nd, ignores Revised completely, and has lots of my own ideas.

                    The more time goes by, the more professional supplements look, but in terms of content appear more like fan fiction - a pale imitation of the original taken into whatever weird way the fanboy/girl wanted.
                    Definitely. I didn't want to imply that the faults were just with the Wendigo and Uktena. Like you said, the Germanic cultures the Get took as their primary human kin were much more than the Viking era. And you really hit the nail on the head bringing up how the Lupus and Metis would not be as influenced by these Homid cultures, and how the Wendigo and Uktena need to be Werewolves that lived surrounded by Native peoples and not literally Native peoples. I can say that my ancestors up to today would not want to be around people associated with such beings. They wouldn't be seen as evil, but strongly associated with aspects of existence not to trifled with outside of the times they are required. And yes, Asia has been painfully neglected. Sadly, it wouldn't take more than a few adjustments to the existing material IMO to fix it. Your focus on totems, and really getting deep into their symbolism and folklore is the best route to go IMO too, and possibly how the homid cultures view wolves in the spiritual/mythical sense to finally distinguish what the Garou would be like.

                    After reading the 20th editions, I do prefer the games without a metaplot. There's so much more potential and life in the 20th editions than earlier ones. Exploring different metaplots would be preferable, and probably lead to longer lasting game lines.


                    Originally posted by Fat Larry View Post

                    Do you have a link to Paradox's plans for M5?

                    Thanks.
                    To be honest, I might have just read about it on other forums. What I heard was the Technocracy was going back to become stand-ins for the Republicans and other right wing parties in the West by encouraging anti-immigrant sentiments because 3rd world people could pose a threat to their paradigm, while the Traditions become magickal versions of ISIS. If true, I guess they've decided the edgy thing would be to make them into what the other stereotypes the other as. Doesn't sound like a good time to me.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Onkwe
                      To be honest, I might have just read about it on other forums. What I heard was the Technocracy was going back to become stand-ins for the Republicans and other right wing parties in the West by encouraging anti-immigrant sentiments because 3rd world people could pose a threat to their paradigm, while the Traditions become magickal versions of ISIS. If true, I guess they've decided the edgy thing would be to make them into what the other stereotypes the other as. Doesn't sound like a good time to me.
                      If my memory serves, that stuff was presented as part of the "One World of Darkness" idea that WW tossed a year or two ago.

                      That project didn't made too far as far as I know. Other rumors of that time period haven't been canonized, like Technocracy being behind SI. The ideas presented at that time for M5 (if it happens at all) may change too. Especially now that WW's V5 had such a heavy backlash, I think a change of direction may be in the future.

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                      • Originally posted by Onkwe View Post
                        To be honest, I might have just read about it on other forums. What I heard was the Technocracy was going back to become stand-ins for the Republicans and other right wing parties in the West by encouraging anti-immigrant sentiments because 3rd world people could pose a threat to their paradigm, while the Traditions become magickal versions of ISIS. If true, I guess they've decided the edgy thing would be to make them into what the other stereotypes the other as. Doesn't sound like a good time to me.
                        Lmao.

                        I can say with 100% certainty, this is NOT going to happen with M5.


                        PENTEX SUCKS.

                        I'm a gamer. I'm conservative. We exist.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Onkwe View Post
                          After reading the 20th editions, I do prefer the games without a metaplot. There's so much more potential and life in the 20th editions than earlier ones. Exploring different metaplots would be preferable, and probably lead to longer lasting game lines.
                          W20 has a metaplot, though, and the point in funding it was never to break free from the old story - just to make a deluxe manual as a tribute to the game; all the story from the Impergium to the modern days and the relationships between tribes is all part of the metaplot and an update from how we left the story back in Revised.

                          If you aim to no metaplots you should consider the CoD; every game in the new WoD was created to make it local and free from all the binds that came with global scale wars or age-old feuds. Personally I like the cwod story more, even if the nwod uses a better game system.

                          Everything that I hear about the fifth edition game books don't make me interested in them. I'm not really interested in how other people are continuing with metaplot
                          I'm more interested in how they're going to fix the game mechanics. Werewolf combat is long, clunky and requires a ton of dice since you may end up rolling over 14 of them. And should you end up rolling14 dice of damage, RnG might still give you only 4 successes, easily soaked by a constitution just half of your damage value.

                          Therefore, I'll glady embrace any statistical fix or time-saving mechanic the new edition is going to offer, since I can't just apply the V5 system while keeping the same W20 gifts - it just would not work and I don't have the time to rewrite and playtest everything.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Fat Larry View Post

                            Lmao.

                            I can say with 100% certainty, this is NOT going to happen with M5.
                            After what happened with V5 I'm a 100% certain too.

                            Originally posted by Maris Streck View Post

                            W20 has a metaplot, though, and the point in funding it was never to break free from the old story - just to make a deluxe manual as a tribute to the game; all the story from the Impergium to the modern days and the relationships between tribes is all part of the metaplot and an update from how we left the story back in Revised.

                            If you aim to no metaplots you should consider the CoD; every game in the new WoD was created to make it local and free from all the binds that came with global scale wars or age-old feuds. Personally I like the cwod story more, even if the nwod uses a better game system.
                            I was speaking of metaplot in the WoD overall. Some gamelines are sufficated by it more than others. Like I enjoyed the way M20 gave tons of options, because Revised strangled you toward a few styles of play. While most of Werewolves' changes over the years came off more like emphisizing on different aspects of the setting over others or reforms of bad earlier decisions (like Fianna being all up in the Northern Ireland conflict, the Get being down with Neo-Nazis, the Uktena being Werewolf like Tremre/Hermetics instead of defenders of animist and indigenous cultures on a global scale, etc). Like I could care less about Albrecht becoming the Silver Fang king, cause usually that didn't effect our game and we actually liked him as a setting character.

                            To me a lot of these things are examples of a rich setting, not metaplot. CoD barely had even a setting for most of their games. With some immagination, you could make up your own, but it felt really pale in comparrison to the global scope of the OWoD. Its why we could never really get into it other than mining it to fill in the holes or give interesting twists to the old games.

                            We also didn't care for CoD's mechanics. We took a few things from that for our homebrew rules, but it was another thing that discouraged us from investing in them (we were also largely poor hood kids, and we could buy all the old books super cheep at used book stores). After lurking around gaming forums and seeing what people complain about, mechanics can be almost as subjective as hiw you feel about the fluff. There's so many things my group loved or disliked that other players found the opposite of.

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                            • Originally posted by Maris Streck View Post
                              Therefore, I'll glady embrace any statistical fix or time-saving mechanic the new edition is going to offer,....
                              The issue here specifically is if the cure is worse than the disease.

                              WtA needs a major system revamp. But V5's mechanics do not offer a solid chassis for a more combat system using playstyle. "Only three rounds of combat then end it" isn't exactly going to be a big hit for people looking for some epic Wyrm fighting.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Heavy Arms View Post

                                The issue here specifically is if the cure is worse than the disease.

                                WtA needs a major system revamp. But V5's mechanics do not offer a solid chassis for a more combat system using playstyle. "Only three rounds of combat then end it" isn't exactly going to be a big hit for people looking for some epic Wyrm fighting.
                                What about adopting thr Storypath system? I haven't read it directly, but I've heard nothing but praise so far.

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