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  • I would love to see the cWoD games done in the Storypath system, even if it's not clear how that would ever happen outside of a fan project.

    The combat systems in general feel faster and robust even if combat can take awhile. Combat rounds go quicker, and there's some neat things it uses to accomplish that (for example, while your roll Defense, you only roll Defense once the first time you're attacked in the round and it stands for the rest of the round rather than rolling per attack), but it also adds some nice tactical depth (such as when you make your Defense roll, you can choose to spend successes on things besides how hard it is for attackers to hit you so there's a choice to make there) which is fun for people that like it but might be a bit too much for others. Storypath characters also tend to be pretty tough to it can take a while to actually beat a character. Which is good for a pack of werewolves facing off against a single opponent so the NPC doesn't go down instantly, but can also get a bit to be a bit of a slog until players get a hang of the Stunt system.

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    • Originally posted by Heavy Arms View Post
      I would love to see the cWoD games done in the Storypath system, even if it's not clear how that would ever happen outside of a fan project.

      The combat systems in general feel faster and robust even if combat can take awhile. Combat rounds go quicker, and there's some neat things it uses to accomplish that (for example, while your roll Defense, you only roll Defense once the first time you're attacked in the round and it stands for the rest of the round rather than rolling per attack), but it also adds some nice tactical depth (such as when you make your Defense roll, you can choose to spend successes on things besides how hard it is for attackers to hit you so there's a choice to make there) which is fun for people that like it but might be a bit too much for others. Storypath characters also tend to be pretty tough to it can take a while to actually beat a character. Which is good for a pack of werewolves facing off against a single opponent so the NPC doesn't go down instantly, but can also get a bit to be a bit of a slog until players get a hang of the Stunt system.
      I might have to buy Scion or Trinity to have a look at its nuts and bolts then.

      I wouldn't claim to be any sort of expert on game engine design, but my group did cobble together this abomination of a system over the years. We had lots of fun using a modified mix of Exalted 2E's tick system and WoD Comabt for one example.

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      • Originally posted by Heavy Arms View Post
        "Only three rounds of combat then end it" isn't exactly going to be a big hit for people looking for some epic Wyrm fighting.
        Okay, that part was horrible and paragon of lazy game design. I was mostly speaking though of the "brawl roll vs brawl roll, hurt the loser with the difference". It concentrates attack, damage, dodge and soak roll in a single contested action. But even something more Exalted-like, where you don't roll damage but just subtract your soak total from STR, would cut some needless roll from the game; but Exalted is a different game, with perfect defenses and 20 hp for character, you'd have to tune it carefully to set the lethality just right.

        CoD barely had even a setting for most of their games. With some immagination, you could make up your own, but it felt really pale in comparrison to the global scope of the OWoD. Its why we could never really get into it other than mining it to fill in the holes or give interesting twists to the old games.
        The main issue with the CWOD was having global superstructures controlling everything. So, Vampire players always had some Elder League over them ready to rain hell if they happened to do big things, young mages had insanely powerful immortal archmages controlling everything from the Umbra, Werewolves had global Pentex conspirations and an epic fight for the end of times... CoD just made it smaller, freeing the storytellers from the burdens of a setting that yes, gave you tools but bound you at the same times.

        I.e: Camarilla and Sabbat are obvious rivals in Masquerade, the Tzimisce are almost nonexistent in the Camarilla; in Requiem, though, the clans are not so structured and the covenants have fluid relationships - Lancea sanctum and Invictus can coexist peacefully in a town, but also be at war should the ST want it.

        Also, Mage Revised might have been a bit more contained in power level, but had the target of putting the player characters as absolute protagonists of the campaign: the Archmages are lost, the spirit world hard to reach, the ancient Chantries destroyed in the war... everything left were a bunch of half-trained newbies and a setting where the strongest mages had Arete 4. Sure, no more spaceships bombarding the gates of Doissetep but through cutting the Ascension war the game went back to the Ascension quest. So yes, I frowned for the loss of the Umbra at first but after a while I could actually appreciate the direction the game was taking, and I believe I like Revised more than all the other versions now - including M20.

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        • Originally posted by Onkwe View Post
          I might have to buy Scion or Trinity to have a look at its nuts and bolts then.
          There's a Storypath preview document that covers a lot of the base rules. The different core books are really more important if you want to see how they adjust things for the different games to stress different aspects; especially if you were interested in hacking a Storypath WOD. Like Scion 2e tends to down play the importance of equipment to focus on the mythological side of things, while Trinity 2e has more tech in it to allow the sci-fi side of the setting to shine. You see this more in the expansion cores (Hero and Aeon) over the initial cores (Origin and Continuum) which tend to be closer in material.

          I wouldn't claim to be any sort of expert on game engine design, but my group did cobble together this abomination of a system over the years.
          The hardest part is the powers really. Storypath works on a very different concept of how to implement powers than the WoD/CofD, Exalted or even Trinity and Scion 1e.

          Originally posted by Maris Streck View Post
          Okay, that part was horrible and paragon of lazy game design.
          But exactly what I'm not confident in the V5 and BNS WtA books leading to a fun combat system for W5 even if some fixes that should happen get done.

          I was mostly speaking though of the "brawl roll vs brawl roll, hurt the loser with the difference".
          Even this is a problem though. It works well enough for people that are generally on par with each other and roughly equal numbers of people on both side of the fight.

          A bunch of Garou vs. a big dangerous bane is insanely hard to avoid either being a complete let down, or a TPK. Yes it compresses the systems. but you lose the ability to have variety in combat that doesn't quickly sway to one sided.

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          • Originally posted by Maris Streck View Post
            The main issue with the CWOD was having global superstructures controlling everything. So, Vampire players always had some Elder League over them ready to rain hell if they happened to do big things, young mages had insanely powerful immortal archmages controlling everything from the Umbra, Werewolves had global Pentex conspirations and an epic fight for the end of times... CoD just made it smaller, freeing the storytellers from the burdens of a setting that yes, gave you tools but bound you at the same times.

            I.e: Camarilla and Sabbat are obvious rivals in Masquerade, the Tzimisce are almost nonexistent in the Camarilla; in Requiem, though, the clans are not so structured and the covenants have fluid relationships - Lancea sanctum and Invictus can coexist peacefully in a town, but also be at war should the ST want it.

            Also, Mage Revised might have been a bit more contained in power level, but had the target of putting the player characters as absolute protagonists of the campaign: the Archmages are lost, the spirit world hard to reach, the ancient Chantries destroyed in the war... everything left were a bunch of half-trained newbies and a setting where the strongest mages had Arete 4. Sure, no more spaceships bombarding the gates of Doissetep but through cutting the Ascension war the game went back to the Ascension quest. So yes, I frowned for the loss of the Umbra at first but after a while I could actually appreciate the direction the game was taking, and I believe I like Revised more than all the other versions now - including M20.
            We never felt restricted by the existence of elders of any kind or the larger factions and shadow nations among the supernaturals. The questions of why didn't King Albrect, Porthos, Leigh, one of the Death Lords, or Lucita not drop in to save the day instead of our player group never factored into the equation of our games. They only existed in so far as was needed for our stories. World building can be fun, but sometimes you want a setting ready to play in or at least serve as an example. Besides, to me at least, individual septs, vampire societies within individual cities, or chantries/contructs seemed independent enough in their canon set-up for their allegience to larger factions not to be an issue either. Overall, people should like what they like. It's just, taken as a whole, most of my friends didn't find CoD as engaging or compelling as a setting when compared to the CWoD. It doesn't mean that one game line is inferior to the other.

            What I did like about most of the 20th editions, is they felt like the 1st/2nd edition books with less cumbersome metaplot additions. It all felt very open and optional for any of that, especially since it's been over a decade for most of the games to have any material released. It made me realize I don't really care to see what all these NPCs have been doing or what plots are still relevant, especially since this would have to be, for lack of a better term, a alternate timeline since their world ended back in 2004. Preferably I would like any 5th edition to be released with a new slate. I would like them to be updated a bit to clear off the 90s dust, and then propelled forward with new plots and characters.

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            • Originally posted by Onkwe View Post
              We never felt restricted by the existence of elders of any kind or the larger factions and shadow nations among the supernaturals. The questions of why didn't King Albrect, Porthos, Leigh, one of the Death Lords, or Lucita not drop in to save the day instead of our player group never factored into the equation of our games. They only existed in so far as was needed for our stories. World building can be fun, but sometimes you want a setting ready to play in or at least serve as an example. Besides, to me at least, individual septs, vampire societies within individual cities, or chantries/contructs seemed independent enough in their canon set-up for their allegience to larger factions not to be an issue either. Overall, people should like what they like. It's just, taken as a whole, most of my friends didn't find CoD as engaging or compelling as a setting when compared to the CWoD. It doesn't mean that one game line is inferior to the other.
              I personally think that having the institutions and "superstructures" existing is a benefit to the roleplaying options of a game.
              Firstly, it imposes the gothic punk feel, it's hard to rebel against the tyranny of the system when the "system" is a couple of guys above you. It's also too easy to see the fallibility of individuals and empathize with their hard decisions when you can personally know them. When the people at the top are so far above you, it gives more of a menacing feeling from the unknown.
              The games never needed to explore that aspect in depth of course.
              But with CoD Vampires, you can too easily get in to the powerful elite, become prince, since they don't have the weight of a bureaucracy to back them against plays. There isn't the follow up since most cities are more independent.

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              • Originally posted by Black Fox View Post
                The more time goes by, the more professional supplements look, but in terms of content appear more like fan fiction - a pale imitation of the original taken into whatever weird way the fanboy/girl wanted.
                This last line was unnecessary to an otherwise valid post and is at the very least insulting to the writers who have worked for both WW and OPP, which is a rules violation. I'm issuing a warning not to post comments like this again in the future, please and thank you.


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                • Originally posted by Illithid View Post
                  I personally think that having the institutions and "superstructures" existing is a benefit to the roleplaying options of a game.
                  Firstly, it imposes the gothic punk feel, it's hard to rebel against the tyranny of the system when the "system" is a couple of guys above you. It's also too easy to see the fallibility of individuals and empathize with their hard decisions when you can personally know them. When the people at the top are so far above you, it gives more of a menacing feeling from the unknown.
                  The games never needed to explore that aspect in depth of course.
                  But with CoD Vampires, you can too easily get in to the powerful elite, become prince, since they don't have the weight of a bureaucracy to back them against plays. There isn't the follow up since most cities are more independent.


                  CoD games are explicitly NOT punk? I mean not every interpretation of modern horror has to have punk baked into it and I think that's a solid defining difference between the two.

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                  • Originally posted by Darksider View Post
                    This last line was unnecessary to an otherwise valid post and is at the very least insulting to the writers who have worked for both WW and OPP, which is a rules violation. I'm issuing a warning not to post comments like this again in the future, please and thank you.
                    If critique is a a rule violation then some rule has to change.
                    He believes that the books lack professionality, good, it's an opinion like any others. Feel free to defend the authors but censorship is disproportionate.

                    We never felt restricted by the existence of elders of any kind or the larger factions and shadow nations among the supernaturals. The questions of why didn't King Albrect, Porthos, Leigh, one of the Death Lords, or Lucita not drop in to save the day instead of our player group never factored into the equation of our games. They only existed in so far as was needed for our stories
                    The point is not having Etrius come to New Hope, Pennsylvania, to spank the neonate PC that insulted a local Tremere, but knowing that if you violate the local Camarilla you'll be hunted in the whole world by the Archons. It's a social power much different from the VtR one, where if you violate the rules of the local Prince you can safely find haven in every other city.

                    And to be clear, I like the metaplot and how it evolved in the years (save some exception, like, how the hell did Theo Bell manage to kill Vitel, it makes no sense); but people who disliked it found their haven in the products of the new Chronicle of Darkness.

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                    • Originally posted by Maris Streck View Post
                      If critique is a a rule violation then some rule has to change.
                      Calling the supplement developers and authors fanboys/girls isn't a critique.

                      The point is not having Etrius come to New Hope, Pennsylvania, to spank the neonate PC that insulted a local Tremere, but knowing that if you violate the local Camarilla you'll be hunted in the whole world by the Archons.
                      Eh? I think for most WoD fans the point is far more the depth of the setting than the implications of the setting. High level NPCs aren't really there to cement specific realities on the setting; pissing off your local Sept doesn't mean Albercht is going send people to investigate. They're there to flush out the setting because it's designed as a top heavy setting where not knowing who holds positions doesn't make a lot of sense.

                      Some people would argue this is a punk thing, though I do challenge the idea that punk aesthetics are so limited.

                      It's a social power much different from the VtR one, where if you violate the rules of the local Prince you can safely find haven in every other city.
                      Maybe, maybe not. The locals you're intruding on might not like you showing up; unlike VtM you can be killed on the spot for trying to settle in a new city without permission because you don't have a Camarilla to rely on to keep certain levels of mutual dealing intact. Fleeing to a new city in VtR is a big enough risk that despite how different social power is handled... the result for player characters is largely the same: respect the Prince's power because the alternatives are usually worse.

                      And to be clear, I like the metaplot and how it evolved in the years (save some exception, like, how the hell did Theo Bell manage to kill Vitel, it makes no sense); but people who disliked it found their haven in the products of the new Chronicle of Darkness.
                      This is a bit of a false dichotomy. CofD vs. WoD is a lot more than metaplot vs. not, and plenty of people might like the WoD more despite the metaplot and would rather the metaplot be handled more like how Exalted or the 20th books do (that is, focus on backstory and where the metaplot might go, than on advancing the metaplot with new books) treats the setting. This is especially true of fans heavily invested in the existing lore, because metaplot shakeups around new editions tend to be the most disruptive.

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                      • Originally posted by Maris Streck View Post
                        If critique is a a rule violation then some rule has to change. He believes that the books lack professionality, good, it's an opinion like any others. Feel free to defend the authors but censorship is disproportionate.
                        Critique is not a rule violation, but disrespect is. A disrespectful comment is not exempted from the rules simply because it is also critical. The rules also state that if you take issue with a moderator’s action, to use the contact us link rather than disputing it publicly.


                        Going by Willow now, or Wil for short. She/Her/Hers.

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                        • Originally posted by Heavy Arms View Post
                          Calling the supplement developers and authors fanboys/girls isn't a critique.
                          Is that an insult on these forums? =P I thought we all were fanboys/fangirls.
                          The way I took it he was simply complaining on the lack of coherence between supplements.

                          Eh? I think for most WoD fans the point is far more the depth of the setting than the implications of the setting. High level NPCs aren't really there to cement specific realities on the setting; pissing off your local Sept doesn't mean Albercht is going send people to investigate.
                          I think that Werewolf is less invasive than Vampire in this sense, since the Garou society is really fractured. But yes, my point was that so much background ends up binding you, apologies if I expressed it poorly. Not that you can't make your own personal campaign putting the Lasombra in the Camarilla and the Tremere in the Sabbat, but many players will complain if the setting is not respected and you certainly can't modify it to such an extent in open events (i.e. public RP tournaments must be respectful of the setting or they'll miss the point).

                          Aka life is easier if the game is more how you like it.

                          This is a bit of a false dichotomy. CofD vs. WoD is a lot more than metaplot vs. not, and plenty of people might like the WoD more despite the metaplot and would rather the metaplot be handled more like how Exalted or the 20th books do (that is, focus on backstory and where the metaplot might go, than on advancing the metaplot with new books) treats the setting. This is especially true of fans heavily invested in the existing lore, because metaplot shakeups around new editions tend to be the most disruptive.
                          I was simply considrering the games from the metaplot viewpoint, didn't mean to imply there were no other differences between the IPs.
                          And I totally understand your meaning. A lot of people took it badly when they removed the Tremere Antitribu or when the Avatar storm refocused Mage on the mundane world; on the very topic of V5 there were a lot of people unsatisfied with the second inquisition, too. I must say, though, that in the WtA setting very little changed between versions... maybe just the Stargazers position in the Garou nation but I can't recall any significative update on the metaplot in the years. What did we have, the crowning of Albrecht and the Skinner adventure serie?

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                          • WtA had a lot of metaplot changes over the years, but WtA generally avoided messing with the base formula (at least until BNS WtA) No Tribes changing allegiances (yes the Stargazers did in Revised, but W20 undid that, and the smallest Tribe leaving was a blip), or being nearly wiped out, or things of that nature. Septs fell, NPCs died, whole groups of antagonists like the Seventh Generation were destroyed, etc.

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                            • Originally posted by Lian View Post
                              CoD games are explicitly NOT punk? I mean not every interpretation of modern horror has to have punk baked into it and I think that's a solid defining difference between the two.
                              I'm not quite sure of your message, since I'm a fan of full sentences to the point of being overly verbose to make sure that I have left myself clear!

                              I Assume (correct me if I'm wrong) that you think I'm saying Requiem is not punk?
                              I think they have less punk aspects because you can get out the the trap of being the oppressed more easily than in Masquerade. In Masquerade, being a Prince, Archon or even Justicar and you are still oppressed by the inner council. Hell; even the inner Council would likely have pressure from the elders behind the creation of the Camarilla, up to the Clan founders.
                              I'm not saying that it's not punk...
                              On the flip side; I'm not saying that Requiem is punk; I agree that gothic can be without punk: Otherwise it'd be advertised as "Gothic" instead of "Gothic Punk" since punk aspects would be implied by the use of "Gothic" automatically.

                              What I'm saying is 1) I believe that the superstructures as discussed are a benefit to roleplaying because they give multilayered political roleplaying opportunities; getting to the top of a city is not the end of that roleplaying experience with peers and superiors, because you will always have peers and superiors.
                              2) I don't actually care what Requiem/Forseaken etc is any more. It doesn't meet my needs, or the needs of those I play with; either in mechanics or themes; I'm completely talking about the WORLD of darkness instead of Chronicles of Darkness; as per the sorting of the forum.

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                              • Originally posted by Charlaquin View Post
                                Critique is not a rule violation, but disrespect is. A disrespectful comment is not exempted from the rules simply because it is also critical. The rules also state that if you take issue with a moderator’s action, to use the contact us link rather than disputing it publicly.
                                Well, I too feel, on occasion, that newer books published by OPP and BNS are written in ways that I would describe as "fanboy/fangirl"-like. This might be the case, it might be attributed to an (for me) unsatisfactory editing process or other factors I can't imagine. Thing is, it is an impression I have, too.

                                Your point is, that you assume that "as if written by a fanboy/fangirl" is disrespectful. Well, this could be argued. One might find certain characteristics in the works of fans who contribute to a shared universe, one would not find in work of people who aren't that invested. Whether or not that is a good or a bat thing is also up to personal taste. In any case, I don't see "fanboy/fangirl"-like as a disrespectful statement in and of its own.

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