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  • Onkwe
    replied
    Originally posted by Maris Streck View Post
    The main issue with the CWOD was having global superstructures controlling everything. So, Vampire players always had some Elder League over them ready to rain hell if they happened to do big things, young mages had insanely powerful immortal archmages controlling everything from the Umbra, Werewolves had global Pentex conspirations and an epic fight for the end of times... CoD just made it smaller, freeing the storytellers from the burdens of a setting that yes, gave you tools but bound you at the same times.

    I.e: Camarilla and Sabbat are obvious rivals in Masquerade, the Tzimisce are almost nonexistent in the Camarilla; in Requiem, though, the clans are not so structured and the covenants have fluid relationships - Lancea sanctum and Invictus can coexist peacefully in a town, but also be at war should the ST want it.

    Also, Mage Revised might have been a bit more contained in power level, but had the target of putting the player characters as absolute protagonists of the campaign: the Archmages are lost, the spirit world hard to reach, the ancient Chantries destroyed in the war... everything left were a bunch of half-trained newbies and a setting where the strongest mages had Arete 4. Sure, no more spaceships bombarding the gates of Doissetep but through cutting the Ascension war the game went back to the Ascension quest. So yes, I frowned for the loss of the Umbra at first but after a while I could actually appreciate the direction the game was taking, and I believe I like Revised more than all the other versions now - including M20.
    We never felt restricted by the existence of elders of any kind or the larger factions and shadow nations among the supernaturals. The questions of why didn't King Albrect, Porthos, Leigh, one of the Death Lords, or Lucita not drop in to save the day instead of our player group never factored into the equation of our games. They only existed in so far as was needed for our stories. World building can be fun, but sometimes you want a setting ready to play in or at least serve as an example. Besides, to me at least, individual septs, vampire societies within individual cities, or chantries/contructs seemed independent enough in their canon set-up for their allegience to larger factions not to be an issue either. Overall, people should like what they like. It's just, taken as a whole, most of my friends didn't find CoD as engaging or compelling as a setting when compared to the CWoD. It doesn't mean that one game line is inferior to the other.

    What I did like about most of the 20th editions, is they felt like the 1st/2nd edition books with less cumbersome metaplot additions. It all felt very open and optional for any of that, especially since it's been over a decade for most of the games to have any material released. It made me realize I don't really care to see what all these NPCs have been doing or what plots are still relevant, especially since this would have to be, for lack of a better term, a alternate timeline since their world ended back in 2004. Preferably I would like any 5th edition to be released with a new slate. I would like them to be updated a bit to clear off the 90s dust, and then propelled forward with new plots and characters.

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  • Heavy Arms
    replied
    Originally posted by Onkwe View Post
    I might have to buy Scion or Trinity to have a look at its nuts and bolts then.
    There's a Storypath preview document that covers a lot of the base rules. The different core books are really more important if you want to see how they adjust things for the different games to stress different aspects; especially if you were interested in hacking a Storypath WOD. Like Scion 2e tends to down play the importance of equipment to focus on the mythological side of things, while Trinity 2e has more tech in it to allow the sci-fi side of the setting to shine. You see this more in the expansion cores (Hero and Aeon) over the initial cores (Origin and Continuum) which tend to be closer in material.

    I wouldn't claim to be any sort of expert on game engine design, but my group did cobble together this abomination of a system over the years.
    The hardest part is the powers really. Storypath works on a very different concept of how to implement powers than the WoD/CofD, Exalted or even Trinity and Scion 1e.

    Originally posted by Maris Streck View Post
    Okay, that part was horrible and paragon of lazy game design.
    But exactly what I'm not confident in the V5 and BNS WtA books leading to a fun combat system for W5 even if some fixes that should happen get done.

    I was mostly speaking though of the "brawl roll vs brawl roll, hurt the loser with the difference".
    Even this is a problem though. It works well enough for people that are generally on par with each other and roughly equal numbers of people on both side of the fight.

    A bunch of Garou vs. a big dangerous bane is insanely hard to avoid either being a complete let down, or a TPK. Yes it compresses the systems. but you lose the ability to have variety in combat that doesn't quickly sway to one sided.

    Leave a comment:


  • Maris Streck
    replied
    Originally posted by Heavy Arms View Post
    "Only three rounds of combat then end it" isn't exactly going to be a big hit for people looking for some epic Wyrm fighting.
    Okay, that part was horrible and paragon of lazy game design. I was mostly speaking though of the "brawl roll vs brawl roll, hurt the loser with the difference". It concentrates attack, damage, dodge and soak roll in a single contested action. But even something more Exalted-like, where you don't roll damage but just subtract your soak total from STR, would cut some needless roll from the game; but Exalted is a different game, with perfect defenses and 20 hp for character, you'd have to tune it carefully to set the lethality just right.

    CoD barely had even a setting for most of their games. With some immagination, you could make up your own, but it felt really pale in comparrison to the global scope of the OWoD. Its why we could never really get into it other than mining it to fill in the holes or give interesting twists to the old games.
    The main issue with the CWOD was having global superstructures controlling everything. So, Vampire players always had some Elder League over them ready to rain hell if they happened to do big things, young mages had insanely powerful immortal archmages controlling everything from the Umbra, Werewolves had global Pentex conspirations and an epic fight for the end of times... CoD just made it smaller, freeing the storytellers from the burdens of a setting that yes, gave you tools but bound you at the same times.

    I.e: Camarilla and Sabbat are obvious rivals in Masquerade, the Tzimisce are almost nonexistent in the Camarilla; in Requiem, though, the clans are not so structured and the covenants have fluid relationships - Lancea sanctum and Invictus can coexist peacefully in a town, but also be at war should the ST want it.

    Also, Mage Revised might have been a bit more contained in power level, but had the target of putting the player characters as absolute protagonists of the campaign: the Archmages are lost, the spirit world hard to reach, the ancient Chantries destroyed in the war... everything left were a bunch of half-trained newbies and a setting where the strongest mages had Arete 4. Sure, no more spaceships bombarding the gates of Doissetep but through cutting the Ascension war the game went back to the Ascension quest. So yes, I frowned for the loss of the Umbra at first but after a while I could actually appreciate the direction the game was taking, and I believe I like Revised more than all the other versions now - including M20.

    Leave a comment:


  • Onkwe
    replied
    Originally posted by Heavy Arms View Post
    I would love to see the cWoD games done in the Storypath system, even if it's not clear how that would ever happen outside of a fan project.

    The combat systems in general feel faster and robust even if combat can take awhile. Combat rounds go quicker, and there's some neat things it uses to accomplish that (for example, while your roll Defense, you only roll Defense once the first time you're attacked in the round and it stands for the rest of the round rather than rolling per attack), but it also adds some nice tactical depth (such as when you make your Defense roll, you can choose to spend successes on things besides how hard it is for attackers to hit you so there's a choice to make there) which is fun for people that like it but might be a bit too much for others. Storypath characters also tend to be pretty tough to it can take a while to actually beat a character. Which is good for a pack of werewolves facing off against a single opponent so the NPC doesn't go down instantly, but can also get a bit to be a bit of a slog until players get a hang of the Stunt system.
    I might have to buy Scion or Trinity to have a look at its nuts and bolts then.

    I wouldn't claim to be any sort of expert on game engine design, but my group did cobble together this abomination of a system over the years. We had lots of fun using a modified mix of Exalted 2E's tick system and WoD Comabt for one example.

    Leave a comment:


  • Heavy Arms
    replied
    I would love to see the cWoD games done in the Storypath system, even if it's not clear how that would ever happen outside of a fan project.

    The combat systems in general feel faster and robust even if combat can take awhile. Combat rounds go quicker, and there's some neat things it uses to accomplish that (for example, while your roll Defense, you only roll Defense once the first time you're attacked in the round and it stands for the rest of the round rather than rolling per attack), but it also adds some nice tactical depth (such as when you make your Defense roll, you can choose to spend successes on things besides how hard it is for attackers to hit you so there's a choice to make there) which is fun for people that like it but might be a bit too much for others. Storypath characters also tend to be pretty tough to it can take a while to actually beat a character. Which is good for a pack of werewolves facing off against a single opponent so the NPC doesn't go down instantly, but can also get a bit to be a bit of a slog until players get a hang of the Stunt system.

    Leave a comment:


  • Onkwe
    replied
    Originally posted by Heavy Arms View Post

    The issue here specifically is if the cure is worse than the disease.

    WtA needs a major system revamp. But V5's mechanics do not offer a solid chassis for a more combat system using playstyle. "Only three rounds of combat then end it" isn't exactly going to be a big hit for people looking for some epic Wyrm fighting.
    What about adopting thr Storypath system? I haven't read it directly, but I've heard nothing but praise so far.

    Leave a comment:


  • Heavy Arms
    replied
    Originally posted by Maris Streck View Post
    Therefore, I'll glady embrace any statistical fix or time-saving mechanic the new edition is going to offer,....
    The issue here specifically is if the cure is worse than the disease.

    WtA needs a major system revamp. But V5's mechanics do not offer a solid chassis for a more combat system using playstyle. "Only three rounds of combat then end it" isn't exactly going to be a big hit for people looking for some epic Wyrm fighting.

    Leave a comment:


  • Onkwe
    replied
    Originally posted by Fat Larry View Post

    Lmao.

    I can say with 100% certainty, this is NOT going to happen with M5.
    After what happened with V5 I'm a 100% certain too.

    Originally posted by Maris Streck View Post

    W20 has a metaplot, though, and the point in funding it was never to break free from the old story - just to make a deluxe manual as a tribute to the game; all the story from the Impergium to the modern days and the relationships between tribes is all part of the metaplot and an update from how we left the story back in Revised.

    If you aim to no metaplots you should consider the CoD; every game in the new WoD was created to make it local and free from all the binds that came with global scale wars or age-old feuds. Personally I like the cwod story more, even if the nwod uses a better game system.
    I was speaking of metaplot in the WoD overall. Some gamelines are sufficated by it more than others. Like I enjoyed the way M20 gave tons of options, because Revised strangled you toward a few styles of play. While most of Werewolves' changes over the years came off more like emphisizing on different aspects of the setting over others or reforms of bad earlier decisions (like Fianna being all up in the Northern Ireland conflict, the Get being down with Neo-Nazis, the Uktena being Werewolf like Tremre/Hermetics instead of defenders of animist and indigenous cultures on a global scale, etc). Like I could care less about Albrecht becoming the Silver Fang king, cause usually that didn't effect our game and we actually liked him as a setting character.

    To me a lot of these things are examples of a rich setting, not metaplot. CoD barely had even a setting for most of their games. With some immagination, you could make up your own, but it felt really pale in comparrison to the global scope of the OWoD. Its why we could never really get into it other than mining it to fill in the holes or give interesting twists to the old games.

    We also didn't care for CoD's mechanics. We took a few things from that for our homebrew rules, but it was another thing that discouraged us from investing in them (we were also largely poor hood kids, and we could buy all the old books super cheep at used book stores). After lurking around gaming forums and seeing what people complain about, mechanics can be almost as subjective as hiw you feel about the fluff. There's so many things my group loved or disliked that other players found the opposite of.

    Leave a comment:


  • Maris Streck
    replied
    Originally posted by Onkwe View Post
    After reading the 20th editions, I do prefer the games without a metaplot. There's so much more potential and life in the 20th editions than earlier ones. Exploring different metaplots would be preferable, and probably lead to longer lasting game lines.
    W20 has a metaplot, though, and the point in funding it was never to break free from the old story - just to make a deluxe manual as a tribute to the game; all the story from the Impergium to the modern days and the relationships between tribes is all part of the metaplot and an update from how we left the story back in Revised.

    If you aim to no metaplots you should consider the CoD; every game in the new WoD was created to make it local and free from all the binds that came with global scale wars or age-old feuds. Personally I like the cwod story more, even if the nwod uses a better game system.

    Everything that I hear about the fifth edition game books don't make me interested in them. I'm not really interested in how other people are continuing with metaplot
    I'm more interested in how they're going to fix the game mechanics. Werewolf combat is long, clunky and requires a ton of dice since you may end up rolling over 14 of them. And should you end up rolling14 dice of damage, RnG might still give you only 4 successes, easily soaked by a constitution just half of your damage value.

    Therefore, I'll glady embrace any statistical fix or time-saving mechanic the new edition is going to offer, since I can't just apply the V5 system while keeping the same W20 gifts - it just would not work and I don't have the time to rewrite and playtest everything.

    Leave a comment:


  • Fat Larry
    replied
    Originally posted by Onkwe View Post
    To be honest, I might have just read about it on other forums. What I heard was the Technocracy was going back to become stand-ins for the Republicans and other right wing parties in the West by encouraging anti-immigrant sentiments because 3rd world people could pose a threat to their paradigm, while the Traditions become magickal versions of ISIS. If true, I guess they've decided the edgy thing would be to make them into what the other stereotypes the other as. Doesn't sound like a good time to me.
    Lmao.

    I can say with 100% certainty, this is NOT going to happen with M5.

    Leave a comment:


  • Aleph
    replied
    Originally posted by Onkwe
    To be honest, I might have just read about it on other forums. What I heard was the Technocracy was going back to become stand-ins for the Republicans and other right wing parties in the West by encouraging anti-immigrant sentiments because 3rd world people could pose a threat to their paradigm, while the Traditions become magickal versions of ISIS. If true, I guess they've decided the edgy thing would be to make them into what the other stereotypes the other as. Doesn't sound like a good time to me.
    If my memory serves, that stuff was presented as part of the "One World of Darkness" idea that WW tossed a year or two ago.

    That project didn't made too far as far as I know. Other rumors of that time period haven't been canonized, like Technocracy being behind SI. The ideas presented at that time for M5 (if it happens at all) may change too. Especially now that WW's V5 had such a heavy backlash, I think a change of direction may be in the future.

    Leave a comment:


  • Onkwe
    replied
    Originally posted by Black Fox View Post

    A problem with all the tribes to an extent was how much they were derived from specific human ethnic groups/cultures as opposed to being their own thing separate from the culture of their kinfolk. That never made sense for metis and lupus, but even among homids not all homid members came from those cultures. Vikings were specific to the Norse for a few centuries, but what about Scandinavia afterwards? Or Carolingian or modern Germany? What about the Bronze Age? All the tribes were like that. I think it is OK to take a few stereotypical aspects of some human culture and portray a certain tribe that way, but more work should have been done in building the legend and identity of how their tribal totem affected the development of their adopted Garou children.

    I also liked the fact that initially the game included people all over the world where wolves were indigenous, and that certain tribes were associated with certain people, while some tribes were pretty much open and included people of whatever descent. There was an emphasis on seeing things from a Western perspective, but that's OK. People could develop things on their own. I just think that when it came to developing the Uktena and Wendigo, the authors failed to make a distinction between actual Native American culture for people versus an alien tribal culture of werewolves who worship Uktena (which is actually a combination of Uktena and Mishipeshu in the game) and Wendigo. (And to a lesser degree, failed to think who are all the werewolves in eastern Asia - I really hated how this was neglected originally in the tribebooks and how it was made worse by the various KotE/Hengeyokai books in a desperate attempt to create another moneymaking game line). However, I just ignored that and used my own modified house setting.

    Everything that I hear about the fifth edition game books don't make me interested in them. I'm not really interested in how other people are continuing with metaplot. Metaplot kills game lines. They get a narrower and narrower group of people to buy more and more books, while driving away more people from the game entirely. At some point, the cannibalization causes more harm to the bottomline because the pitiful remnant can no longer buy enough additional game books to make up for the attrition.

    I don't mind the idea of Metaplot as separate ideas of how chronicles can become. That gives an ST a toolkit to use - they can take whatever elements they want, ignore it entirely, or use it as the sole basis for a campaign. And if they want to continue with it great. But if not, then next year there is a new Metaplot chronicle guide. But the one can entirely contradict the other because neither is "canon". They just originate from the original corebook. I approach the different WoD eras as their own thing. 1st/2nd is its own thing, and Revised is its own thing. And my personal chronicle canon is based more on 1st/2nd, ignores Revised completely, and has lots of my own ideas.

    The more time goes by, the more professional supplements look, but in terms of content appear more like fan fiction - a pale imitation of the original taken into whatever weird way the fanboy/girl wanted.
    Definitely. I didn't want to imply that the faults were just with the Wendigo and Uktena. Like you said, the Germanic cultures the Get took as their primary human kin were much more than the Viking era. And you really hit the nail on the head bringing up how the Lupus and Metis would not be as influenced by these Homid cultures, and how the Wendigo and Uktena need to be Werewolves that lived surrounded by Native peoples and not literally Native peoples. I can say that my ancestors up to today would not want to be around people associated with such beings. They wouldn't be seen as evil, but strongly associated with aspects of existence not to trifled with outside of the times they are required. And yes, Asia has been painfully neglected. Sadly, it wouldn't take more than a few adjustments to the existing material IMO to fix it. Your focus on totems, and really getting deep into their symbolism and folklore is the best route to go IMO too, and possibly how the homid cultures view wolves in the spiritual/mythical sense to finally distinguish what the Garou would be like.

    After reading the 20th editions, I do prefer the games without a metaplot. There's so much more potential and life in the 20th editions than earlier ones. Exploring different metaplots would be preferable, and probably lead to longer lasting game lines.


    Originally posted by Fat Larry View Post

    Do you have a link to Paradox's plans for M5?

    Thanks.
    To be honest, I might have just read about it on other forums. What I heard was the Technocracy was going back to become stand-ins for the Republicans and other right wing parties in the West by encouraging anti-immigrant sentiments because 3rd world people could pose a threat to their paradigm, while the Traditions become magickal versions of ISIS. If true, I guess they've decided the edgy thing would be to make them into what the other stereotypes the other as. Doesn't sound like a good time to me.

    Leave a comment:


  • Fat Larry
    replied
    Originally posted by Onkwe View Post
    and the same goes for their terrible plans for M5.
    Do you have a link to Paradox's plans for M5?

    Thanks.

    Leave a comment:


  • Black Fox
    replied
    Originally posted by Onkwe View Post
    A big part of fixing them, and all the tribes that are heavily ethnic based, is there should have been a greater exploration of the purpose, origin, etc of what the tribes were before said ethnic groups formed and how the greater adoption of these human groups did to shape them. Because honestly, they tend to all feel really static compared to say Vampire clans, Traditions, the Legions, etc.
    A problem with all the tribes to an extent was how much they were derived from specific human ethnic groups/cultures as opposed to being their own thing separate from the culture of their kinfolk. That never made sense for metis and lupus, but even among homids not all homid members came from those cultures. Vikings were specific to the Norse for a few centuries, but what about Scandinavia afterwards? Or Carolingian or modern Germany? What about the Bronze Age? All the tribes were like that. I think it is OK to take a few stereotypical aspects of some human culture and portray a certain tribe that way, but more work should have been done in building the legend and identity of how their tribal totem affected the development of their adopted Garou children.

    I also liked the fact that initially the game included people all over the world where wolves were indigenous, and that certain tribes were associated with certain people, while some tribes were pretty much open and included people of whatever descent. There was an emphasis on seeing things from a Western perspective, but that's OK. People could develop things on their own. I just think that when it came to developing the Uktena and Wendigo, the authors failed to make a distinction between actual Native American culture for people versus an alien tribal culture of werewolves who worship Uktena (which is actually a combination of Uktena and Mishipeshu in the game) and Wendigo. (And to a lesser degree, failed to think who are all the werewolves in eastern Asia - I really hated how this was neglected originally in the tribebooks and how it was made worse by the various KotE/Hengeyokai books in a desperate attempt to create another moneymaking game line). However, I just ignored that and used my own modified house setting.

    Everything that I hear about the fifth edition game books don't make me interested in them. I'm not really interested in how other people are continuing with metaplot. Metaplot kills game lines. They get a narrower and narrower group of people to buy more and more books, while driving away more people from the game entirely. At some point, the cannibalization causes more harm to the bottomline because the pitiful remnant can no longer buy enough additional game books to make up for the attrition.

    I don't mind the idea of Metaplot as separate ideas of how chronicles can become. That gives an ST a toolkit to use - they can take whatever elements they want, ignore it entirely, or use it as the sole basis for a campaign. And if they want to continue with it great. But if not, then next year there is a new Metaplot chronicle guide. But the one can entirely contradict the other because neither is "canon". They just originate from the original corebook. I approach the different WoD eras as their own thing. 1st/2nd is its own thing, and Revised is its own thing. And my personal chronicle canon is based more on 1st/2nd, ignores Revised completely, and has lots of my own ideas.

    The more time goes by, the more professional supplements look, but in terms of content appear more like fan fiction - a pale imitation of the original taken into whatever weird way the fanboy/girl wanted.

    Leave a comment:


  • Onkwe
    replied
    Speaking as a Native on the topic of the Native Garou, their inclusion was what made me buy the book when I came across it on the shelf of a used book store back in the early 00s (aside from werewolves being my favorite classic monster). Despite their execution, I personally felt included in a Fantasy/supernatural fictional setting for once without us being solely a shitty Fantasy counterpart culture of tragic savages and/or a source of exotic wisdom, etc. I also liked how they were a fully functional part of Garou society instead of being outliers like their counterparts in Wraith or Changeling. Are there still severe issues with their execution? Yes. I could go on and on and on about it, but I don’t have the time or the inclination to do so at this point.

    A big part of fixing them, and all the tribes that are heavily ethnic based, is there should have been a greater exploration of the purpose, origin, etc of what the tribes were before said ethnic groups formed and how the greater adoption of these human groups did to shape them. Because honestly, they tend to all feel really static compared to say Vampire clans, Traditions, the Legions, etc.

    Before Forsaken is mentioned as fixing this, it only went part of the way IMO. I like the greater purpose and mythical beginnings of their tribes being their origin point, and it really justifies how they remain these perpetual entities since Pangaea , unlike Apocalypse. However, for all my complaints about the static nature of the Garou tribes , the Urathra come off even more frozen, bland, and video game like. Nothing has changed since Father Wolf died thousands upon thousands of years ago, while in Apocalypse there’s much more extensive history with the War of Rage, the Impergium, the fall of the White Howlers, Croatan, and Bunyip, and so forth. And again, given this “universal” nature of the Forsaken and the Pure, I don’t feel included. It’s very much Euro-American like all the NWoD games. Not to imply Forsaken sucks, because there’s A LOT of material I love and prefer over Apocalypse, but it’s far from this perfect replacement for the faults of Old Werewolf. Over the years, mixing up aspects of both games often fixes holes in the other, but this is another subject.

    In summery, each of the game lines committed the cardinal sins of trying to represent disenfranchised/minority groups. In the classic line, by trying to represent the uniqueness of other cultures, even European ones, they fell heavily into Euro-American stereotypes of these groups. While with the new games, they bleached it so much to be “universal”, they didn’t realize they were basically falling back on the subconscious assumption that a neutral state of humanity is a Euro-American one. I’m not trying to say that the writers are these horrible racists or alt-right jerks. I know they had nothing but the best intentions in mind for these games, but mistakes were made. Like Heavy Arms said, it’s going to happen more often than not when people write about people, countries, and cultures they don’t have much of or any personal contact with, especially when the internet was in its infancy.



    As for the original topic, I find the changes proposed for W5 terrible and detrimental to the game. These are not the changes WtA needs, and if OPP or some other entity pursues them, they will not get another cent from me. V5 was enough of an abomination, and the same goes for their terrible plans for M5.
    Last edited by Onkwe; 01-17-2019, 06:15 PM.

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